Neither The Jerusalem Talmud or the Babylonian Talmud are the Jewish Bible, or even a Bible
Nov 7, 2021 09:46:16 #
The Talmud makes interesting reading because it is infused with vigorous intellectual debate, humor and deep wisdom, however, it is Not inspired by God, but is strictly the brain-storming theorizing of men.
The Talmud is a collection of ancient Jewish Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority in Orthodox Judaism today.
Talmud (ˈtælmʊd) noun
[from Hebrew talmūdh, literally: instruction, from lāmadh to learn]
1. Judaism's Talmud: primary source of Jewish man-made religious law, consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara
2. Judaism has two Talmuds: two critical compilations, the Palestinian Talmud of about 375 A.D., or the lengthier and more prominent Babylonian Talmud of about 500 A.D.
The Talmud is a vast collection of Jewish laws and traditions. The Babylonian Talmud is much more widely studied than the Jerusalem Talmud; if there is a disagreement between the two talmuds, the halachah (Torah law) follows the Babylonian Talmud.
There is much cross-over between the two Talmuds. Both Talmuds record instances of rabbis traveling from the land of Israel to Babylonia and vice versa. It is a creation of men, and whatever wisdom it contains is the wisdom of men.
The Talmud is the textual record of generations of rabbinic debate about law, philosophy, and biblical interpretation, compiled between the 3rd and 8th centuries A.D., and structured as commentary on the Mishnah with stories interwoven. The Talmud exists in two versions: the more commonly studied Babylonian Talmud was compiled in what is present-day Iraq, while the Jerusalem Talmud was compiled in Israel because there were two main centers to Jewish life: Babylon and Israel. In Babylon the senior authority was the Reish Galusa, in Israel the Nasi (Prince) of the Sanhedrin. Both were descended from the House of David.
After the Mishnah (the first major written collection of the Jewish oral traditions which had been erroneously overly dignified by the titling of Oral Torah), was compiled by Rebbe Yehuda HaNasi as the first major work of rabbinic literature; further discussions and elaborations were recorded to illustrate and explain Jewish law based on the Torah and Mishnah.
Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi (Rabbi Judah - the Prince), was the editor of the Mishnah in its final form. He is referred to as "Rebbi," Teacher par excellence, and as "Rabbeinu HaKadosh," our Holy Rabbi. He was the son of Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel II, and was born eighty years after the destruction of the Second Temple. His greatest accomplishment was Mishnah.
The Mishnah is the first written record of what had been called the Oral Law by the Rabbis - never before written down as a formalized text or permanent record, but supposedly passed on from one scholar to the next, from one generation to the next, since Ezra.
The two Talmudic collections of ancient Rabbinic writings, each consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, basically each constituting a commentary of opinions and man-made laws adding to the Torah, and a commentary on the Commentary, then became the basis of religious authority in Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism, as they replaced God's Biblical Judaism in the 1st and second century, having rejected their rightful Messiah, and having lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit in doing so.
[Mishnaic - Hebrew - (talmûd), learning, instruction, from Hebrew lāmad, to learn; These discussions varied by their location and the Gemara that is recorded in each version of the Talmud.
The version in Israel became known as the Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem). Because they lived in Israel many of the laws of purity and laws of agriculture not applicable in Babylon are discussed in this version, however, due to their oppression, its editing was never fully completed, making the Jerusalem Talmud harder to follow and study than the Bavli/ Babylonian Talmud.
The Babylonian version, known as Talmud Bavli, although second, is the more authoritative of the two Talmuds (the other Talmud being the Yerushalmi) [b]They were both produced by Rabbinic Judaism.[/b] Completed about 600 - 800 A.D., the Bavli served as the constitution and bylaws of Rabbinic Judaism. Several attributes of the Bavli distinguish it from the Talmud Yerushalmi: more in depth discussion with better editing - completed a century later than the Talmud Yerushalmi, in places it references and discusses the opinion of the Talmud Yerushalmi. The Talmud Bavli is the more authoritative of the two Talmuds due to this later time of completion, and its resultant ability to reference and include opinions from the Talmud Yerushalmi.
In each generation there were experts in different areas of the man-made Oral Law - one scholar an expert in the laws of the Sabbath, for example, whereas another man was an expert in torts and damages. All together, they transmitted their own compiled thoughts and additions to their traditions of Moses down through the centuries to the Jewish people.
After the defeat of Bar Kochba, when it became abundantly clear that the Jewish people would be in for a long exile, the system of learning based upon oral transmission had to change of necessity, after rejecting the God-given written Torah and Tanakh, preferring their own Talmudic rules, laws, regulations and opinions.
Individuals in earlier generations had kept notes that summarized their Oral Law, but they were kept private. Rabbi Meir was one of those who possessed such a body of notes,- not fully organized and not always reflecting the varying opinions in Jewish law.
The Mishnah would finally be published in an organized, authoritative form a generation after Rabbi Meir by Rabbi Judah, known as the Prince of the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Judah did not start from scratch, he was the redactor or editor of the Mishnah, not its creator.
There were three wars against the Romans. The first one lasted from 63 to 73 A.D., culminating in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and the exile of the Jews from Jerusalem. The second war took place in about 110 A.D. and was led by two brothers with Roman names, Pappus and Lulianus (the Roman name Julius or Julian). They made a strong effort to deliver the Jewish people from under the Roman yoke. Their main headquarters was in the city of Lod. The Romans pursued them and dealt with them very severely, massacring of all its inhabitants, including Pappus and Lulianus.
Bar Kochba followed the same strategy that the Jews had followed in the first rebellion against Rome. He first reconquered the Galilee to cut the Romans off from the sea. Then he surrounded Jerusalem and forced them out.
He had active support of most of the rabbis – in contradistinction to the first two revolts against Rome. In those instances the rabbis were at best neutral. In this war, the most influential rabbi who lent his name to the cause, was Akiva ben Joseph.
It was Rabbi Akiva who ascribed to Shimon bar Kochba the famous messianic verse: “A star will shoot forth from Jacob” (Numbers 24:17). That is why he was called by the name “Kochba,” meaning “star.” In essence, Rabbi Akiva crowned him the Messiah. Rabbi Akiva was widely respected, so the people immediately elevated bar Kochba to the level of their Messiah. This is why the Christians could take no part in this war; its intent was to create a false messiah.
Shimon bar Kochba’s reputation became so great that, according to the records of the times, many non-Jews came to fight in his army seeing it as a real chance to bring down the Roman Empire. Bar Kochba mustered an army of almost 350,000, in the ancient world an enormous army, greater in number than the entire Roman army.
The Romans were so hard pressed that Hadrian brought his best general and all of his troops from England, Gaul, Germany and all of the provinces scattered throughout the Roman world for Rome felt itself threatened as no other time. It was total war.
At one point Bar Kochba took back Jerusalem and proclaimed that he was going to rebuild the Temple, which was one of the steps the Messiah was supposed to do according to prophecy and tradition. However, due to Roman pressure and internal dissention he never actually began rebuilding. By the third year of his reign there were already signs of disenchantment as the supposed “Star” faded and burnt out after a string of almost unbroken successes for four to five years, he now began to suffer reverses. He felt that the rabbis had turned against him.
This happened while he commanded a very large force at the city Beitar, which was the key to Jerusalem. The Jews were so well-fortified and supplied they could have held out at Beitar indefinitely, and had they done so, the Romans, who were constantly harassed by guerilla warfare and marauding Jewish soldiers, would have retreated. However, Beitar was betrayed. Its secret fortifications and entrances were revealed to the Romans by insiders — but not by the rabbis, as Bar Kochba feared. Yet, in a fit of almost insane paranoia Bar Kochba accused the great sage, Rabbi Elazar, of being the spy and executed him. He then lost the support of the rabbis completely. It eroded all chance of reconciliation. Then they began calling him, “Bar Koziba,” meaning the son of a lie; a false messiah. Their hopes were dashed.
Bar Kochba was eventually killed in battle. According to Dio Cassius and Jewish sources, at least half a million Jews were killed. It was a tremendous blood bath. Beitar fell to the Romans on Tisha B’Av, the ninth day of the month of Av, in 135 CE, adding it to the calamitous national tragedies of the Jewish people since the crucifixion and resurrection of their true Messiah, whom in a glorious future day, they are yet destined to recognize.
In the meantime, many of the Jewish people continue to be tragically spiritually blinded today, as their Rabbis lead them in meaningless man-made rituals and observances taught from their self-concocted Talmuds, after so long ago abandoning any understanding of the ancient prophecies of their own God-given Scriptures, which God has and will still bring to pass.
The Talmud is a collection of ancient Jewish Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority in Orthodox Judaism today.
Talmud (ˈtælmʊd) noun
[from Hebrew talmūdh, literally: instruction, from lāmadh to learn]
1. Judaism's Talmud: primary source of Jewish man-made religious law, consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara
2. Judaism has two Talmuds: two critical compilations, the Palestinian Talmud of about 375 A.D., or the lengthier and more prominent Babylonian Talmud of about 500 A.D.
The Talmud is a vast collection of Jewish laws and traditions. The Babylonian Talmud is much more widely studied than the Jerusalem Talmud; if there is a disagreement between the two talmuds, the halachah (Torah law) follows the Babylonian Talmud.
There is much cross-over between the two Talmuds. Both Talmuds record instances of rabbis traveling from the land of Israel to Babylonia and vice versa. It is a creation of men, and whatever wisdom it contains is the wisdom of men.
The Talmud is the textual record of generations of rabbinic debate about law, philosophy, and biblical interpretation, compiled between the 3rd and 8th centuries A.D., and structured as commentary on the Mishnah with stories interwoven. The Talmud exists in two versions: the more commonly studied Babylonian Talmud was compiled in what is present-day Iraq, while the Jerusalem Talmud was compiled in Israel because there were two main centers to Jewish life: Babylon and Israel. In Babylon the senior authority was the Reish Galusa, in Israel the Nasi (Prince) of the Sanhedrin. Both were descended from the House of David.
After the Mishnah (the first major written collection of the Jewish oral traditions which had been erroneously overly dignified by the titling of Oral Torah), was compiled by Rebbe Yehuda HaNasi as the first major work of rabbinic literature; further discussions and elaborations were recorded to illustrate and explain Jewish law based on the Torah and Mishnah.
Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi (Rabbi Judah - the Prince), was the editor of the Mishnah in its final form. He is referred to as "Rebbi," Teacher par excellence, and as "Rabbeinu HaKadosh," our Holy Rabbi. He was the son of Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel II, and was born eighty years after the destruction of the Second Temple. His greatest accomplishment was Mishnah.
The Mishnah is the first written record of what had been called the Oral Law by the Rabbis - never before written down as a formalized text or permanent record, but supposedly passed on from one scholar to the next, from one generation to the next, since Ezra.
The two Talmudic collections of ancient Rabbinic writings, each consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, basically each constituting a commentary of opinions and man-made laws adding to the Torah, and a commentary on the Commentary, then became the basis of religious authority in Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism, as they replaced God's Biblical Judaism in the 1st and second century, having rejected their rightful Messiah, and having lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit in doing so.
[Mishnaic - Hebrew - (talmûd), learning, instruction, from Hebrew lāmad, to learn; These discussions varied by their location and the Gemara that is recorded in each version of the Talmud.
The version in Israel became known as the Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem). Because they lived in Israel many of the laws of purity and laws of agriculture not applicable in Babylon are discussed in this version, however, due to their oppression, its editing was never fully completed, making the Jerusalem Talmud harder to follow and study than the Bavli/ Babylonian Talmud.
The Babylonian version, known as Talmud Bavli, although second, is the more authoritative of the two Talmuds (the other Talmud being the Yerushalmi) [b]They were both produced by Rabbinic Judaism.[/b] Completed about 600 - 800 A.D., the Bavli served as the constitution and bylaws of Rabbinic Judaism. Several attributes of the Bavli distinguish it from the Talmud Yerushalmi: more in depth discussion with better editing - completed a century later than the Talmud Yerushalmi, in places it references and discusses the opinion of the Talmud Yerushalmi. The Talmud Bavli is the more authoritative of the two Talmuds due to this later time of completion, and its resultant ability to reference and include opinions from the Talmud Yerushalmi.
In each generation there were experts in different areas of the man-made Oral Law - one scholar an expert in the laws of the Sabbath, for example, whereas another man was an expert in torts and damages. All together, they transmitted their own compiled thoughts and additions to their traditions of Moses down through the centuries to the Jewish people.
After the defeat of Bar Kochba, when it became abundantly clear that the Jewish people would be in for a long exile, the system of learning based upon oral transmission had to change of necessity, after rejecting the God-given written Torah and Tanakh, preferring their own Talmudic rules, laws, regulations and opinions.
Individuals in earlier generations had kept notes that summarized their Oral Law, but they were kept private. Rabbi Meir was one of those who possessed such a body of notes,- not fully organized and not always reflecting the varying opinions in Jewish law.
The Mishnah would finally be published in an organized, authoritative form a generation after Rabbi Meir by Rabbi Judah, known as the Prince of the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Judah did not start from scratch, he was the redactor or editor of the Mishnah, not its creator.
There were three wars against the Romans. The first one lasted from 63 to 73 A.D., culminating in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and the exile of the Jews from Jerusalem. The second war took place in about 110 A.D. and was led by two brothers with Roman names, Pappus and Lulianus (the Roman name Julius or Julian). They made a strong effort to deliver the Jewish people from under the Roman yoke. Their main headquarters was in the city of Lod. The Romans pursued them and dealt with them very severely, massacring of all its inhabitants, including Pappus and Lulianus.
Bar Kochba followed the same strategy that the Jews had followed in the first rebellion against Rome. He first reconquered the Galilee to cut the Romans off from the sea. Then he surrounded Jerusalem and forced them out.
He had active support of most of the rabbis – in contradistinction to the first two revolts against Rome. In those instances the rabbis were at best neutral. In this war, the most influential rabbi who lent his name to the cause, was Akiva ben Joseph.
It was Rabbi Akiva who ascribed to Shimon bar Kochba the famous messianic verse: “A star will shoot forth from Jacob” (Numbers 24:17). That is why he was called by the name “Kochba,” meaning “star.” In essence, Rabbi Akiva crowned him the Messiah. Rabbi Akiva was widely respected, so the people immediately elevated bar Kochba to the level of their Messiah. This is why the Christians could take no part in this war; its intent was to create a false messiah.
Shimon bar Kochba’s reputation became so great that, according to the records of the times, many non-Jews came to fight in his army seeing it as a real chance to bring down the Roman Empire. Bar Kochba mustered an army of almost 350,000, in the ancient world an enormous army, greater in number than the entire Roman army.
The Romans were so hard pressed that Hadrian brought his best general and all of his troops from England, Gaul, Germany and all of the provinces scattered throughout the Roman world for Rome felt itself threatened as no other time. It was total war.
At one point Bar Kochba took back Jerusalem and proclaimed that he was going to rebuild the Temple, which was one of the steps the Messiah was supposed to do according to prophecy and tradition. However, due to Roman pressure and internal dissention he never actually began rebuilding. By the third year of his reign there were already signs of disenchantment as the supposed “Star” faded and burnt out after a string of almost unbroken successes for four to five years, he now began to suffer reverses. He felt that the rabbis had turned against him.
This happened while he commanded a very large force at the city Beitar, which was the key to Jerusalem. The Jews were so well-fortified and supplied they could have held out at Beitar indefinitely, and had they done so, the Romans, who were constantly harassed by guerilla warfare and marauding Jewish soldiers, would have retreated. However, Beitar was betrayed. Its secret fortifications and entrances were revealed to the Romans by insiders — but not by the rabbis, as Bar Kochba feared. Yet, in a fit of almost insane paranoia Bar Kochba accused the great sage, Rabbi Elazar, of being the spy and executed him. He then lost the support of the rabbis completely. It eroded all chance of reconciliation. Then they began calling him, “Bar Koziba,” meaning the son of a lie; a false messiah. Their hopes were dashed.
Bar Kochba was eventually killed in battle. According to Dio Cassius and Jewish sources, at least half a million Jews were killed. It was a tremendous blood bath. Beitar fell to the Romans on Tisha B’Av, the ninth day of the month of Av, in 135 CE, adding it to the calamitous national tragedies of the Jewish people since the crucifixion and resurrection of their true Messiah, whom in a glorious future day, they are yet destined to recognize.
In the meantime, many of the Jewish people continue to be tragically spiritually blinded today, as their Rabbis lead them in meaningless man-made rituals and observances taught from their self-concocted Talmuds, after so long ago abandoning any understanding of the ancient prophecies of their own God-given Scriptures, which God has and will still bring to pass.
Nov 7, 2021 14:01:02 #
Michael Rich
Loc: Lapine Oregon
Zemirah wrote:
The Talmud makes interesting reading because it is... (show quote)
All of the days and customs that you hold as sacred are man made.
Your religion has nothing to do with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
And from your own words you don't believe in the God of Moses and the eternal laws given on MT Sinai.
If you did believe in the God of King David, you would believe Him when he says that his laws such as the Sabbath are forever, eternal, and unchanging.
Your religion discards the Lord of Hosts eternal commands into the trash.
Idolatry is something that you hold as sacred in your doctrine.
This isn't mindless cut and paste, this is truth.
Nov 8, 2021 10:44:13 #
Zemirah wrote:
The Talmud makes interesting reading because it is... (show quote)
We live in such tumultuous times and now more than ever its important for us to be wearing the full armor of God. Spiritual warfare is very real and its sometimes obvious sometimes subtle. Its important we recognize it. I know you do.
Nov 8, 2021 11:19:16 #
Michael, The standard edition of the Babylonian Talmud (which is longer than the Jerusalem Talmud) fills 2,711 double-sided pages of text, as well as many thousands more devoted to various commentaries.
Have you ever read one word of the Talmud? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Orthodox Jewish faith? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Ultra Orthodox - Haredim (Chabad or Lubovitch) ? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Conservative branch of Judaism? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Reform branch of Judaism? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Reconstructionist branch of Judaism? I have.
Append: My point is that you should know that of which you speak.
Their emphasis is NOT upon the Bible - Old Testament/Tanakh or even Torah! It is always upon that which they value - their man-made Commentary, the Talmud, what their Rabbis have said in their Talmud! They are spiritually blinded, as are you!
They have been blinded, and until they individually call upon the name of their Messiah, their Mashiach Yeshua/Jesus Christ, the veil is not lifted. The old covenant is being done away in Christ. To the Jews that truth still remains under a veil (II Corinthians 3:14).
The good news is that tens of thousands of them across the world, within the Messianic Jewish movement, since 1967 when they regained the city of Jerusalem, have recognized and believed upon Yeshua as their Lord and Savior!
Within Israel, 1967 was a turning point. Against all odds, Israel won the Six-Day War; Jerusalem was reunited, and Jewish sovereignty was reestablished over the Temple Mount and other holy places of Jerusalem.
In 2017, three hundred (300) congregations of believers in Yeshua/Jesus were counted. It is difficult to identify the exact number of Jewish believers in Israel, but a conservative estimate in 2017 was 30,000; there are more now.
FYI, I don't hold ANY days or customs as sacred, only beliefs in the Lord, my God, the Triune God of the Universe.
Everything else you uttered is, as usual, without truth or worth.
Have you ever read one word of the Talmud? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Orthodox Jewish faith? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Ultra Orthodox - Haredim (Chabad or Lubovitch) ? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Conservative branch of Judaism? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Reform branch of Judaism? I have.
Have you ever attended a Sabbath Service of the Reconstructionist branch of Judaism? I have.
Append: My point is that you should know that of which you speak.
Their emphasis is NOT upon the Bible - Old Testament/Tanakh or even Torah! It is always upon that which they value - their man-made Commentary, the Talmud, what their Rabbis have said in their Talmud! They are spiritually blinded, as are you!
They have been blinded, and until they individually call upon the name of their Messiah, their Mashiach Yeshua/Jesus Christ, the veil is not lifted. The old covenant is being done away in Christ. To the Jews that truth still remains under a veil (II Corinthians 3:14).
The good news is that tens of thousands of them across the world, within the Messianic Jewish movement, since 1967 when they regained the city of Jerusalem, have recognized and believed upon Yeshua as their Lord and Savior!
Within Israel, 1967 was a turning point. Against all odds, Israel won the Six-Day War; Jerusalem was reunited, and Jewish sovereignty was reestablished over the Temple Mount and other holy places of Jerusalem.
In 2017, three hundred (300) congregations of believers in Yeshua/Jesus were counted. It is difficult to identify the exact number of Jewish believers in Israel, but a conservative estimate in 2017 was 30,000; there are more now.
FYI, I don't hold ANY days or customs as sacred, only beliefs in the Lord, my God, the Triune God of the Universe.
Everything else you uttered is, as usual, without truth or worth.
Michael Rich wrote:
All of the days and customs that you hold as sacre... (show quote)
Nov 8, 2021 12:30:11 #
Michael Rich
Loc: Lapine Oregon
Zemirah wrote:
Michael, The standard edition of the Babylonian Ta... (show quote)
I think that you are lying about not observing Easter..Christmas...Sunday.
I went to church and observed the true Sabbath day for many years.
When I accepted the truth that faith in Jesus is idolatry, I quit.
I still believe that the seventh day Sabbath can never be done away with no matter how many times the Catholic church says it can.
The Jews have to repent and come back to the Torah before messiah returns.
You are judging the Almighty Lord of Hosts when you think that your just judging man.
There are however, a remnant of Jews who are still faithfully following the Torah.
The same Torah that you disregard as irrelevant.
In your Christian religion it might be a thing of the past, but to some Jews and Noahides, God's word is an eternal word, not a separate being.
The Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Tanach.
You and other rebels can try to force some scripture into fitting your beliefs, but if you were the Hebrew scholar that you represent yourself to be, you would clearly understand that God is One.
Not a transformer who poses as three different beings.
If you understood English like you brag up, you would clearly understand what Zechariah 8:23 plainly says.
In the coming days of messiah, it will be the House of Judah and the House of Israel who will be leading the world to the Creator, not some idolatrous/blasphemous evangelicals who deny the One and Only true God.
Nov 8, 2021 19:00:15 #
Michael. I've never "bragged" about understanding English. I do, however, have more than one dictionary. 
I think you dwell on exceedingly small matters if you concern yourself with which days are observed by whom!
With nothing to hide and nothing to fear, other than displeasing my God, I have no motive to lie to anyone about anything.
Neither the Bible or the early church knew anything about celebrating Easter. They memorialized Jesus' death and resurrection on Pesach (Passover), as He was the "lamb who took away the sin of the world," so I observe Pesach in the manner I choose.
I also observe Hanukkah (The Festival of Lights), because Jesus did, and because He is the Light of the World.
I said I consider no day "sacred." Only God Himself is sacred. God would be pleased if we chose to worship Him every day, including both Saturday and Sunday, however He has bound us to neither:
Colossians 2:8,16: "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."
A biblical Sabbath day did not involve going anywhere, including a worship service. It was instituted as a day of rest. (Genesis 2:1-3)/ Key Text: "Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Christ was in constant conflict with the Jewish rabbis over the illegitimacy of their hundreds of man-made laws and traditions with which they unnecessarily burdened the people whom they were supposed to serve (Mark 7:2, 3, 8).
He rejected salvation being obtainable through the observance of these laws.
There are thirty-nine categories of rules which they instituted for the Sabbath. Each of these 39 includes 4 or 5 or 6 sub-rules accompanying it.
1. Carrying
2. Burning
3. Extinguishing
4. Finishing (Note14)
5. Writing (Note 19)
6. Erasing (Note 2l)
7. Cooking (Note 23)
8. Washing (Note 25)
9. Sewing (Note 26)
10. Tearing (Note 27)
11. Knotting (Note 28)
12. Untying (Note 29)
13. Shaping (Note 30)
14. Plowing (Note 31)
15. Planting (Note 32)
16. Reaping (Note 33)
17. Harvesting (Note 34)
18. Threshing (Note 35)
19. Winnowing (Note 36)
20. Selecting (Note 37)
21. Sifting (Note 38)
22. Grinding (Note 39)
23. Kneading (Note 40)
24. Combing (Note 41)
25. Spinning (Note 42)
26. Dyeing (Note 43)
27. Chainstitching (Note 44)
28. Warping (Note 46)
29. Weaving (Note 47)
30. Unravelling (Note 48)
31. Building (Note 49)
32. Demolishing (Note 50)
33. Trapping (Note 51)
34. Shearing (Note 52)
35. Slaughtering (Note 53)
36. Skinning (Note 54 )
37. Tanning (Note 55)
38. Smoothing (Note 56)
39. Marking (Note 58)
These are listed in the book “SABBATH Day of Eternity” by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (available separately, or included in the “The Aryeh Kaplan Anthology II,” published by the NCSY (National Conference of Synagogue Youth) Division of the Orthodox Union.
You say you observed the Sabbath on Saturday during your "pagan" years, and still do, - so what has changed?
Can it be that you left a cult, but the cult didn't leave you?
I think you dwell on exceedingly small matters if you concern yourself with which days are observed by whom!
With nothing to hide and nothing to fear, other than displeasing my God, I have no motive to lie to anyone about anything.
Neither the Bible or the early church knew anything about celebrating Easter. They memorialized Jesus' death and resurrection on Pesach (Passover), as He was the "lamb who took away the sin of the world," so I observe Pesach in the manner I choose.
I also observe Hanukkah (The Festival of Lights), because Jesus did, and because He is the Light of the World.
I said I consider no day "sacred." Only God Himself is sacred. God would be pleased if we chose to worship Him every day, including both Saturday and Sunday, however He has bound us to neither:
Colossians 2:8,16: "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."
A biblical Sabbath day did not involve going anywhere, including a worship service. It was instituted as a day of rest. (Genesis 2:1-3)/ Key Text: "Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Christ was in constant conflict with the Jewish rabbis over the illegitimacy of their hundreds of man-made laws and traditions with which they unnecessarily burdened the people whom they were supposed to serve (Mark 7:2, 3, 8).
He rejected salvation being obtainable through the observance of these laws.
There are thirty-nine categories of rules which they instituted for the Sabbath. Each of these 39 includes 4 or 5 or 6 sub-rules accompanying it.
1. Carrying
2. Burning
3. Extinguishing
4. Finishing (Note14)
5. Writing (Note 19)
6. Erasing (Note 2l)
7. Cooking (Note 23)
8. Washing (Note 25)
9. Sewing (Note 26)
10. Tearing (Note 27)
11. Knotting (Note 28)
12. Untying (Note 29)
13. Shaping (Note 30)
14. Plowing (Note 31)
15. Planting (Note 32)
16. Reaping (Note 33)
17. Harvesting (Note 34)
18. Threshing (Note 35)
19. Winnowing (Note 36)
20. Selecting (Note 37)
21. Sifting (Note 38)
22. Grinding (Note 39)
23. Kneading (Note 40)
24. Combing (Note 41)
25. Spinning (Note 42)
26. Dyeing (Note 43)
27. Chainstitching (Note 44)
28. Warping (Note 46)
29. Weaving (Note 47)
30. Unravelling (Note 48)
31. Building (Note 49)
32. Demolishing (Note 50)
33. Trapping (Note 51)
34. Shearing (Note 52)
35. Slaughtering (Note 53)
36. Skinning (Note 54 )
37. Tanning (Note 55)
38. Smoothing (Note 56)
39. Marking (Note 58)
These are listed in the book “SABBATH Day of Eternity” by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (available separately, or included in the “The Aryeh Kaplan Anthology II,” published by the NCSY (National Conference of Synagogue Youth) Division of the Orthodox Union.
You say you observed the Sabbath on Saturday during your "pagan" years, and still do, - so what has changed?
Can it be that you left a cult, but the cult didn't leave you?
Michael Rich wrote:
I think that you are lying about not observing Eas... (show quote)
Nov 8, 2021 19:40:28 #
Michael Rich
Loc: Lapine Oregon
Zemirah wrote:
Michael. I've never "bragged" about unde... (show quote)
I believe that God gave his unchanging directions in the Tanach.
I don't consider the 10 commandments as insignificant issues.
The seventh day Sabbath is the forth commandment.
The Eternal said that the seventh day Sabbath would be a sign between Him and His people forevermore.
You nor anyone else can change that.
Get over yourself and read the Torah...even if you've read it before..you have discarded it along the way.
Nov 8, 2021 23:32:01 #
Michael, what is and what is not unchanging is very well spelled out in the Tanakh.
The Mosaic covenant is an agreement that was made between God and His people, Israel, contingent on both parties performing what they bound themselves to perform. Because the covenant was made at Mount Sinai, it is sometimes called the Sinai covenant ( Exodus 19—24 ). The Mosaic covenant was named after Moses, the man who God had chosen to lead Israel, and to whom the first Ten Commandments of the Law were given.
The Mosaic covenant was a bilateral, or conditional covenant, meaning that both parties were responsible to fulfill a duty to the other. The people were responsible to follow the Law, and in return, God promised to abundantly bless and protect Israel as they lived in obedience to Him (Exodus 19:5-8).
The conditional nature of the Mosaic covenant makes it very different from the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, which are unconditional.
In the unconditional Abrahamic covenant, God promised the land as an eternal possession. in the unconditional Davidic covenant, God promised that a future descendant of David would rule from his (David's throne); God's favor, promises and blessings in these two covenants are based on God's decision alone, and on His promise to perform what He had promised, rather than on any actions of the people to whom He promised.
In the Mosaic covenant, the blessing or lack thereof of blessing from God was to be a direct result of the obedience or disobedience of the people. This is outlined in detail in Deuteronomy 28:1-2:
"And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God."
Why did the gracious God of the New Testament, who loves and forgives unconditionally, and whose salvation is not merit-based, create a conditional, merit-based covenant with His people in the Old Testament?
God gave us the answer to this puzzle in several places in the New Testament epistles, the Apostle Paul was inspired to contrast the old covenant vs. the new covenant. The old covenant he is referring to is the Mosaic covenant, also called "the Law."
The purpose of the Law, says Paul, was to make people aware of their own inability to live sinless lives in compliance with the Law, so that when Christ came, they would recognize their need for Him (Galatians 3:24-25).
When the Mosaic covenant was formed, the people of Israel responded to God's reminder to obey with the verbal promise "All that the LORD has spoken we will do" (Exodus 19:8). The rest of the biblical history of that nation, however, shows that they were never capable of obeying Him for any length of time as they failed over and over and over.
They were hopelessly unable to accomplish the requirements of the Law. Sacrifices and offerings were prescribed for sins, but even these were done incorrectly or half-heartedly (Malachi 1:6-10). Also, there was always a remnant in Israel, even under the old covenant, who understood their inability to please God. King David was one of these.
It is clear from the Psalms that he knew himself to be sinful in a way that could only be forgiven by God's mercy (Psalm 51:1-12). Also, we know that Abraham and the other patriarchs were men of faith, believing in God for their salvation, rather than trusting in their own ability to perform "works" (Hebrews 11:4-12).
Therefore, the existence of the Mosaic covenant was not a contradiction of God's grace, but instead it is an illumination of every man's absolute need for that grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:16-17).
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." - Romans 14:5
As a recipient of God's grace through my faith in Christ's propitiatory atonement,- His payment of my sin debt in full, I relish the assurance of my freedom in Christ to make personal choices...
Whereas, in rejecting Him, "the only name by which we may be saved," you have locked yourself into the unenviable position of achieving the flawless perfection of your own being to a degree that will satisfy the demand of a righteous and Holy God... something no mere mortal on earth has accomplished.
The Mosaic covenant is an agreement that was made between God and His people, Israel, contingent on both parties performing what they bound themselves to perform. Because the covenant was made at Mount Sinai, it is sometimes called the Sinai covenant ( Exodus 19—24 ). The Mosaic covenant was named after Moses, the man who God had chosen to lead Israel, and to whom the first Ten Commandments of the Law were given.
The Mosaic covenant was a bilateral, or conditional covenant, meaning that both parties were responsible to fulfill a duty to the other. The people were responsible to follow the Law, and in return, God promised to abundantly bless and protect Israel as they lived in obedience to Him (Exodus 19:5-8).
The conditional nature of the Mosaic covenant makes it very different from the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, which are unconditional.
In the unconditional Abrahamic covenant, God promised the land as an eternal possession. in the unconditional Davidic covenant, God promised that a future descendant of David would rule from his (David's throne); God's favor, promises and blessings in these two covenants are based on God's decision alone, and on His promise to perform what He had promised, rather than on any actions of the people to whom He promised.
In the Mosaic covenant, the blessing or lack thereof of blessing from God was to be a direct result of the obedience or disobedience of the people. This is outlined in detail in Deuteronomy 28:1-2:
"And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God."
Why did the gracious God of the New Testament, who loves and forgives unconditionally, and whose salvation is not merit-based, create a conditional, merit-based covenant with His people in the Old Testament?
God gave us the answer to this puzzle in several places in the New Testament epistles, the Apostle Paul was inspired to contrast the old covenant vs. the new covenant. The old covenant he is referring to is the Mosaic covenant, also called "the Law."
The purpose of the Law, says Paul, was to make people aware of their own inability to live sinless lives in compliance with the Law, so that when Christ came, they would recognize their need for Him (Galatians 3:24-25).
When the Mosaic covenant was formed, the people of Israel responded to God's reminder to obey with the verbal promise "All that the LORD has spoken we will do" (Exodus 19:8). The rest of the biblical history of that nation, however, shows that they were never capable of obeying Him for any length of time as they failed over and over and over.
They were hopelessly unable to accomplish the requirements of the Law. Sacrifices and offerings were prescribed for sins, but even these were done incorrectly or half-heartedly (Malachi 1:6-10). Also, there was always a remnant in Israel, even under the old covenant, who understood their inability to please God. King David was one of these.
It is clear from the Psalms that he knew himself to be sinful in a way that could only be forgiven by God's mercy (Psalm 51:1-12). Also, we know that Abraham and the other patriarchs were men of faith, believing in God for their salvation, rather than trusting in their own ability to perform "works" (Hebrews 11:4-12).
Therefore, the existence of the Mosaic covenant was not a contradiction of God's grace, but instead it is an illumination of every man's absolute need for that grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:16-17).
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." - Romans 14:5
As a recipient of God's grace through my faith in Christ's propitiatory atonement,- His payment of my sin debt in full, I relish the assurance of my freedom in Christ to make personal choices...
Whereas, in rejecting Him, "the only name by which we may be saved," you have locked yourself into the unenviable position of achieving the flawless perfection of your own being to a degree that will satisfy the demand of a righteous and Holy God... something no mere mortal on earth has accomplished.
Michael Rich wrote:
I believe that God gave his unchanging directions in the Tanach.
I don't consider the 10 commandments as insignificant issues.
The seventh day Sabbath is the forth commandment.
The Eternal said that the seventh day Sabbath would be a sign between Him and His people forevermore.
You nor anyone else can change that.
Get over yourself and read the Torah...even if you've read it before..you have discarded it along the way.
I don't consider the 10 commandments as insignificant issues.
The seventh day Sabbath is the forth commandment.
The Eternal said that the seventh day Sabbath would be a sign between Him and His people forevermore.
You nor anyone else can change that.
Get over yourself and read the Torah...even if you've read it before..you have discarded it along the way.
Nov 9, 2021 00:09:49 #
Is the Sabbath still a "sign" between God and His People? Under the covenant agreements that God made with Abraham and the Israelites, several practices were instituted by God as signs of obedience which the Israelites were expected to follow for all their generations.
The first was Circumcision (Genesis 17:9-14).
"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.....and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you...and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."
...and second was the Passover (Exodus 12:13-14).
"And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye [are]: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy [you], when I smite the land of Egypt. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever."
...and the third was Sabbath observance (Exodus 31:13,17).
But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, You shall surely observe my sabbaths: for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord that sanctifies you. It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Notice that the Sabbath as a "sign" was given to the children of Israel.
SDA "Truth" Versus Bible Truth: Seal of God:
In brief, SDAs...
Teach the Seal of God is given to those who observe the seventh-day as Sabbath
The truth is that in the book of Revelation, however, there is no direct connection between the Seal of God and the Sabbath. Seventh-day Adventists make this connection by piecing together various verses from the Bible in an attempt to prove the Sabbath is the Seal of God:
1. The Sabbath has always been kept by God's true people throughout history. From Adam to Noah to Abraham to Jesus to the Apostles to the current SDA Church, true believers are distinguished by their day of worship, the false prophetess Ellen G. White wrote.
Seventh-day Adventists claim that they are "spiritual Israel". If so, then why do they not also practice the other "eternal signs" of obedience between Israel and God? Notice that the "signs" of Circumcision and the Passover were to be practiced by God's special people forever. So, why don't SDAs celebrate the Passover?
The truth is that the signs of obedience given specifically to Israel, such as Sabbath-keeping, Circumcision, and Passover are never described in the New Testament as signs for Christians living under the New Covenant, there is no statement in the New Testament calling the Sabbath a sign of any sort between God and Christians.
The sign of Circumcision and observance of the laws of Moses were an issue in the early church. A church council was convened in Jerusalem around 50 AD by James and the Apostles debated over which of the laws Moses had written applied to Christians. During that council the brethren settled upon four laws for Gentile converts:
"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye
[1] abstain from meats offered to idols, and
[2] from blood, and
[3] from things strangled, and
[4] from fornication:
from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:28,29)
Notice that it was the "Holy Ghost" that made these requirements, and the Apostles were careful to say that "no greater burden" from the law of Moses was to be laid upon the believing Gentiles than these four requirements. In fact, in the same letter, the Church leaders make it clear that they never placed a burden of keeping the Mosaic law upon the Gentile converts:
"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment. (Acts. 15:24)"
This verse makes it abundantly clear that the Apostles never commanded their followers to "keep the law" of Moses. In this context, the law refers to all the ordinances and commands written by Moses in the Torah, including the passage where the Sabbath is described as a sign between God and Israel (Exodus 31:13,17). In fact, the Apostles considered that for Christians to attempt to observe the teachings of Moses in the Torah would be tantamount to "subverting your souls."
There is no evidence that any of the three signs of Israel (Circumcision, Passover, Sabbath observance) were ever considered "signs" of Christianity.16
16. The only part of the Law of Moses enforced on gentiles was the law of the sojourner (Lev. 17:8-15, 18:1-26), which dealt with eating the blood of animals and sexual sin.
The lack of any direct Bible evidence linking the Seal of God to Sabbath-keeping was erroneously explained away by Adventist false prophetess Ellen G. White:
"In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God. This seal is the Sabbath."4
4. Ellen White, Present Truth, Jan. 31, 1849.
The Bible counters much of what the false prophetess Ellen G. White taught and what her church teaches today.
https://www.challies.com/articles/the-false-teachers-ellen-g-white/
On the contrary, the Holy Spirit, through Paul fought vigorously against enforcing the sign of circumcision upon gentile converts (see Galatians). Paul wrote that Christ was the fulfillment of the Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7).
The first was Circumcision (Genesis 17:9-14).
"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.....and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you...and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."
...and second was the Passover (Exodus 12:13-14).
"And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye [are]: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy [you], when I smite the land of Egypt. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever."
...and the third was Sabbath observance (Exodus 31:13,17).
But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, You shall surely observe my sabbaths: for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord that sanctifies you. It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Notice that the Sabbath as a "sign" was given to the children of Israel.
SDA "Truth" Versus Bible Truth: Seal of God:
In brief, SDAs...
Teach the Seal of God is given to those who observe the seventh-day as Sabbath
The truth is that in the book of Revelation, however, there is no direct connection between the Seal of God and the Sabbath. Seventh-day Adventists make this connection by piecing together various verses from the Bible in an attempt to prove the Sabbath is the Seal of God:
1. The Sabbath has always been kept by God's true people throughout history. From Adam to Noah to Abraham to Jesus to the Apostles to the current SDA Church, true believers are distinguished by their day of worship, the false prophetess Ellen G. White wrote.
Seventh-day Adventists claim that they are "spiritual Israel". If so, then why do they not also practice the other "eternal signs" of obedience between Israel and God? Notice that the "signs" of Circumcision and the Passover were to be practiced by God's special people forever. So, why don't SDAs celebrate the Passover?
The truth is that the signs of obedience given specifically to Israel, such as Sabbath-keeping, Circumcision, and Passover are never described in the New Testament as signs for Christians living under the New Covenant, there is no statement in the New Testament calling the Sabbath a sign of any sort between God and Christians.
The sign of Circumcision and observance of the laws of Moses were an issue in the early church. A church council was convened in Jerusalem around 50 AD by James and the Apostles debated over which of the laws Moses had written applied to Christians. During that council the brethren settled upon four laws for Gentile converts:
"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye
[1] abstain from meats offered to idols, and
[2] from blood, and
[3] from things strangled, and
[4] from fornication:
from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:28,29)
Notice that it was the "Holy Ghost" that made these requirements, and the Apostles were careful to say that "no greater burden" from the law of Moses was to be laid upon the believing Gentiles than these four requirements. In fact, in the same letter, the Church leaders make it clear that they never placed a burden of keeping the Mosaic law upon the Gentile converts:
"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment. (Acts. 15:24)"
This verse makes it abundantly clear that the Apostles never commanded their followers to "keep the law" of Moses. In this context, the law refers to all the ordinances and commands written by Moses in the Torah, including the passage where the Sabbath is described as a sign between God and Israel (Exodus 31:13,17). In fact, the Apostles considered that for Christians to attempt to observe the teachings of Moses in the Torah would be tantamount to "subverting your souls."
There is no evidence that any of the three signs of Israel (Circumcision, Passover, Sabbath observance) were ever considered "signs" of Christianity.16
16. The only part of the Law of Moses enforced on gentiles was the law of the sojourner (Lev. 17:8-15, 18:1-26), which dealt with eating the blood of animals and sexual sin.
The lack of any direct Bible evidence linking the Seal of God to Sabbath-keeping was erroneously explained away by Adventist false prophetess Ellen G. White:
"In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God. This seal is the Sabbath."4
4. Ellen White, Present Truth, Jan. 31, 1849.
The Bible counters much of what the false prophetess Ellen G. White taught and what her church teaches today.
https://www.challies.com/articles/the-false-teachers-ellen-g-white/
On the contrary, the Holy Spirit, through Paul fought vigorously against enforcing the sign of circumcision upon gentile converts (see Galatians). Paul wrote that Christ was the fulfillment of the Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7).
Nov 9, 2021 09:38:27 #
Michael Rich
Loc: Lapine Oregon
Zemirah wrote:
Michael, what is and what is not unchanging is ver... (show quote)
When you try to mix Paul with Moses, they serve two different God's.
When God said that the Sabbath was an """""eternal/perpetual"""" sign between Him and His people.
How do you interpret what God has said is FOREVER?
Nov 10, 2021 01:18:31 #
The Apostle Paul and the Prophet Moses worshiped the same awesome God, Yahweh, the great "I AM," the Triune God of Creation.
The Holy Spirit is the Seal of the New Covenant in Christ.
We experience the reality of the New Covenant when we walk in the Spirit.
(Ephesians 1:13-14,)
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."
A step of the Hebrew ceremony is to have a seal of the covenant. They would cut their arm to make a scar. The scar will bear witness that the testimony had been made. It is a sign and a guarantee of the covenant.
Under the Old Covenant of law, circumcision, not the Sabbath, was the seal of the covenant.
David was speaking covenant language when he called Goliath an uncircumcised Philistine who defies the army of the living God (1 Sam 17:26).
He was declaring that victory belongs to God’s covenant children – and the fact they were circumcised bore testimony to that covenant.
Everything that is physical in the Old Covenant is fulfilled in the spiritual in the New Covenant. Therefore in the New Covenant, it is the circumcision of the heart (Rom 2:29). Circumcision means to cut off the flesh. This means to walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.
Is the following erroneous teaching familiar to you, Michael?
Is this what you've been taught to believe?
It sounds very much what you have been parroting for months.
"In 1847, Joseph Bates first proposed that Sabbath-keeping was the Seal of God and Sunday-keeping the Mark of the Beast in his book, Seventh Day Sabbath.
However, Bates ignored the evidence given in the New Testament showing that the sign or seal of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit.
Adventist historian George Knight writes in the Adventist Review,
"Bates set forth what would become the Sabbatarian understanding of the mark of the beast. Building upon Revelation 12:17 with its idea that God would have a last-day remnant that would 'keep the commandments of God,' he noted that 'there will yet be a mighty struggle about the restoring and keeping [of] the seventh day Sabbath, that will test every living soul that enters the gates of the city' (SDS [1847].
God’s people would be 'persecuted for keeping the commandments' by those who had the mark of the beast. 'Is it not clear,' Bates asked in examining Revelation 14:9-12, 'that the first day of the week for the Sabbath or holy day is a mark of the beast[?]' Thus at the end of time only two groups would live on earth—those having the mark of the beast and those keeping God’s commandments, including the seventh-day Sabbath."
In 1849, Bates published a book entitled, A Seal of the Living God, in which he writes:
"Now all advent believers that have, and do, participate in the advent messages as given in Rev. 14:6-13, will love and keep this covenant with God, and especially His Holy Sabbath, in this covenant; this is a part of the 144,000 now to be sealed.
"The other part are those who do not yet so well understand the advent doctrine; but are endeavoring to serve God with their whole hearts, and are willing, and will receive this covenant and Sabbath as soon as they hear it explained. These will constitute the 144,000 now to be sealed with 'a seal of the living God,' which sealing will bear them through this time of trouble."
The Whites soon adopted Bates' teaching and Mrs. White began having "visions" supporting Bates' idea. It is apparent that Bates, Mrs. White and other early Adventists believed the sealing process to have already commenced because Mrs. White wrote an article in January of 1849 entitled, "To Those who are receiving the seal of the living God". In that article she writes thus:
"Now is the time for the law of God to be in our minds (foreheads), and written in our hearts. ... Time has continued on a few years longer than they expected, therefore they think it may continue a few years more, and in this way their minds are being led from present truth, out after the world. In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God. This seal is the Sabbath."
To Ellen White, the Sabbath is what marked the difference between those loyal to God and those disloyal:
"The Sabbath is the great test question. It is the line of demarkation between the loyal and true and the disloyal and transgressor. ... It is the seal of the living God."
"Thus the distinction is drawn between the loyal and the disloyal. Those who desire to have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Thus they are distinguished from the disloyal, who have accepted a man-made institution in place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not."
A Unique Adventist Teaching
The idea that the Sabbath was the "line of demarkation" between the loyal and disloyal represents a radical departure from traditional Protestant teachings of the 1800s. Protestants of that day taught the Mark of the Beast was allegiance to the papacy.
Allegiance to the papacy included allegiance to the many errors and superstitions of the papacy, such as:
Veneration of the pope as God upon earth who is able to forgive sins
Adoration and worship of the Virgin Mary
Transubstantiation (bread becomes the body of Christ)
Purgatory
The confessional
An unmarried priesthood
Prayers to apostles and saints, prayers for those in purgatory, and repetitive prayers (rosaries)
Adoration of relics and idols of saints
Salvation by works
Extra-Biblical sources of inspiration such as the church fathers
Christianization of pagan holy days such as Easter and Christmas
There are numerous items indicating allegiance to the errors of the papacy.
Joseph Bates in his book A Seal of the Living God makes little mention of all of the profound differences between Catholicism and Protestantism and focused instead upon the one issue that was of utmost importance to him: Sabbath-keeping.
In Bates' mind, the Mark of the Beast was not Mary worship. It was not belief in Purgatory. It was not belief in the confessional or transubstantiation. The Mark of the Beast was Sunday worship.
Why did Bates choose Sunday worship over all of the other identifying marks of Catholicism? In chapter 1 we read of the raging animosity between Bates and the mainstream Protestant churches.
By identifying Sunday as the Mark of the Beast, Bates found a clever way to lump the hated Protestants churches into the same basket as the Catholics.
With one master stroke he was able to consign to hell all those Protestant churches that had so infuriated him and his associates for rejecting Miller's time-setting movement.
In one bold move Bates managed to redefine nearly three hundred years of Protestant teachings from Luther and other great reformers that identified the Mark of the Beast as allegiance to the heretical teachings of Rome listed above.
So, with a little help from the prophetess, Adventists tied the change of the day of worship to the papacy, thus identifying Sunday worship as the single most important distinguishing feature of false Christianity.
Unfortunately for Ellen White, the theory that the Pope changed the day of worship was later refuted by one of Adventism's own scholars, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi. In his ground-breaking book, From Sabbath to Sunday, Dr. Bacchiocchi provides irrefutable evidence that the change in Sabbath-keeping from Sabbath to Sunday actually occurred far earlier than previously supposed.
In the 1970s, Bacchiocchi was the first and only non-Catholic to ever be allowed to study at the Catholic Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. While there he was given access to the Church's archives and was able to find priceless research material for his book.
While it probably was not the purpose of his book to exonerate the Pope, his research showed that the change from Sabbath to Sunday worship occurred far earlier in history than had been previously admitted by Adventists.
In fact, the change happened long before the papacy was even established in power. These findings cast considerable doubt on whether Sunday worship could be considered allegiance to the papacy since the practice was well established throughout Christianity centuries before the first Pope arose.
In 1997, Dr. Bacchiocchi, wrote:
"I differ from Ellen White, for example, on the origin of Sunday.
She teaches that in the first centuries all Christians observed the Sabbath and it was largely through the efforts of Constantine that Sunday keeping was adopted by many Christians in the fourth century.
My research shows otherwise. If you read my essay HOW DID SUNDAY KEEPING BEGIN? which summarizes my dissertation, you will notice that I place the origin of Sunday keeping by the time of the Emperor Hadrian, in A.D. 135."
The True Meaning of "Seal of God"
Having established the Mark of the Beast as being Sunday worship, - Bates ignored the evidence given in the New Testament showing that the sign or seal of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit.[/b]
2 Corinthians 1:21–22.
"Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."
The Holy Spirit is the Seal of the New Covenant in Christ.
We experience the reality of the New Covenant when we walk in the Spirit.
(Ephesians 1:13-14,)
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."
A step of the Hebrew ceremony is to have a seal of the covenant. They would cut their arm to make a scar. The scar will bear witness that the testimony had been made. It is a sign and a guarantee of the covenant.
Under the Old Covenant of law, circumcision, not the Sabbath, was the seal of the covenant.
David was speaking covenant language when he called Goliath an uncircumcised Philistine who defies the army of the living God (1 Sam 17:26).
He was declaring that victory belongs to God’s covenant children – and the fact they were circumcised bore testimony to that covenant.
Everything that is physical in the Old Covenant is fulfilled in the spiritual in the New Covenant. Therefore in the New Covenant, it is the circumcision of the heart (Rom 2:29). Circumcision means to cut off the flesh. This means to walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.
Is the following erroneous teaching familiar to you, Michael?
Is this what you've been taught to believe?
It sounds very much what you have been parroting for months.
"In 1847, Joseph Bates first proposed that Sabbath-keeping was the Seal of God and Sunday-keeping the Mark of the Beast in his book, Seventh Day Sabbath.
However, Bates ignored the evidence given in the New Testament showing that the sign or seal of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit.
Adventist historian George Knight writes in the Adventist Review,
"Bates set forth what would become the Sabbatarian understanding of the mark of the beast. Building upon Revelation 12:17 with its idea that God would have a last-day remnant that would 'keep the commandments of God,' he noted that 'there will yet be a mighty struggle about the restoring and keeping [of] the seventh day Sabbath, that will test every living soul that enters the gates of the city' (SDS [1847].
God’s people would be 'persecuted for keeping the commandments' by those who had the mark of the beast. 'Is it not clear,' Bates asked in examining Revelation 14:9-12, 'that the first day of the week for the Sabbath or holy day is a mark of the beast[?]' Thus at the end of time only two groups would live on earth—those having the mark of the beast and those keeping God’s commandments, including the seventh-day Sabbath."
In 1849, Bates published a book entitled, A Seal of the Living God, in which he writes:
"Now all advent believers that have, and do, participate in the advent messages as given in Rev. 14:6-13, will love and keep this covenant with God, and especially His Holy Sabbath, in this covenant; this is a part of the 144,000 now to be sealed.
"The other part are those who do not yet so well understand the advent doctrine; but are endeavoring to serve God with their whole hearts, and are willing, and will receive this covenant and Sabbath as soon as they hear it explained. These will constitute the 144,000 now to be sealed with 'a seal of the living God,' which sealing will bear them through this time of trouble."
The Whites soon adopted Bates' teaching and Mrs. White began having "visions" supporting Bates' idea. It is apparent that Bates, Mrs. White and other early Adventists believed the sealing process to have already commenced because Mrs. White wrote an article in January of 1849 entitled, "To Those who are receiving the seal of the living God". In that article she writes thus:
"Now is the time for the law of God to be in our minds (foreheads), and written in our hearts. ... Time has continued on a few years longer than they expected, therefore they think it may continue a few years more, and in this way their minds are being led from present truth, out after the world. In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God. This seal is the Sabbath."
To Ellen White, the Sabbath is what marked the difference between those loyal to God and those disloyal:
"The Sabbath is the great test question. It is the line of demarkation between the loyal and true and the disloyal and transgressor. ... It is the seal of the living God."
"Thus the distinction is drawn between the loyal and the disloyal. Those who desire to have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Thus they are distinguished from the disloyal, who have accepted a man-made institution in place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not."
A Unique Adventist Teaching
The idea that the Sabbath was the "line of demarkation" between the loyal and disloyal represents a radical departure from traditional Protestant teachings of the 1800s. Protestants of that day taught the Mark of the Beast was allegiance to the papacy.
Allegiance to the papacy included allegiance to the many errors and superstitions of the papacy, such as:
Veneration of the pope as God upon earth who is able to forgive sins
Adoration and worship of the Virgin Mary
Transubstantiation (bread becomes the body of Christ)
Purgatory
The confessional
An unmarried priesthood
Prayers to apostles and saints, prayers for those in purgatory, and repetitive prayers (rosaries)
Adoration of relics and idols of saints
Salvation by works
Extra-Biblical sources of inspiration such as the church fathers
Christianization of pagan holy days such as Easter and Christmas
There are numerous items indicating allegiance to the errors of the papacy.
Joseph Bates in his book A Seal of the Living God makes little mention of all of the profound differences between Catholicism and Protestantism and focused instead upon the one issue that was of utmost importance to him: Sabbath-keeping.
In Bates' mind, the Mark of the Beast was not Mary worship. It was not belief in Purgatory. It was not belief in the confessional or transubstantiation. The Mark of the Beast was Sunday worship.
Why did Bates choose Sunday worship over all of the other identifying marks of Catholicism? In chapter 1 we read of the raging animosity between Bates and the mainstream Protestant churches.
By identifying Sunday as the Mark of the Beast, Bates found a clever way to lump the hated Protestants churches into the same basket as the Catholics.
With one master stroke he was able to consign to hell all those Protestant churches that had so infuriated him and his associates for rejecting Miller's time-setting movement.
In one bold move Bates managed to redefine nearly three hundred years of Protestant teachings from Luther and other great reformers that identified the Mark of the Beast as allegiance to the heretical teachings of Rome listed above.
So, with a little help from the prophetess, Adventists tied the change of the day of worship to the papacy, thus identifying Sunday worship as the single most important distinguishing feature of false Christianity.
Unfortunately for Ellen White, the theory that the Pope changed the day of worship was later refuted by one of Adventism's own scholars, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi. In his ground-breaking book, From Sabbath to Sunday, Dr. Bacchiocchi provides irrefutable evidence that the change in Sabbath-keeping from Sabbath to Sunday actually occurred far earlier than previously supposed.
In the 1970s, Bacchiocchi was the first and only non-Catholic to ever be allowed to study at the Catholic Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. While there he was given access to the Church's archives and was able to find priceless research material for his book.
While it probably was not the purpose of his book to exonerate the Pope, his research showed that the change from Sabbath to Sunday worship occurred far earlier in history than had been previously admitted by Adventists.
In fact, the change happened long before the papacy was even established in power. These findings cast considerable doubt on whether Sunday worship could be considered allegiance to the papacy since the practice was well established throughout Christianity centuries before the first Pope arose.
In 1997, Dr. Bacchiocchi, wrote:
"I differ from Ellen White, for example, on the origin of Sunday.
She teaches that in the first centuries all Christians observed the Sabbath and it was largely through the efforts of Constantine that Sunday keeping was adopted by many Christians in the fourth century.
My research shows otherwise. If you read my essay HOW DID SUNDAY KEEPING BEGIN? which summarizes my dissertation, you will notice that I place the origin of Sunday keeping by the time of the Emperor Hadrian, in A.D. 135."
The True Meaning of "Seal of God"
Having established the Mark of the Beast as being Sunday worship, - Bates ignored the evidence given in the New Testament showing that the sign or seal of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit.[/b]
2 Corinthians 1:21–22.
"Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."
Michael Rich wrote:
When you try to mix Paul with Moses, they serve two different God's.
When God said that the Sabbath was an """""eternal/perpetual"""" sign between Him and His people.
How do you interpret what God has said is FOREVER?
When God said that the Sabbath was an """""eternal/perpetual"""" sign between Him and His people.
How do you interpret what God has said is FOREVER?
Nov 10, 2021 10:16:03 #
Michael Rich
Loc: Lapine Oregon
Zemirah wrote:
The Apostle Paul and the Prophet Moses worshiped t... (show quote)
The so called new testament is full of rebellious teachings against the everlasting covenant given in the Tanach.
Nothing you or any other rebel can say will ever change that the Creator said that the Sabbath would be a everlasting sign between God and his people.
You could line up a million Paul's, but none can actually nullify God's everlasting word.
No matter how much they have "anointed themselves" (Paul) as sent by God, a bunch of Paul's can dupe a bunch of people who didn't ever believe in the God of Moses to begin with...but a bunch of Paul's can't change the Tanach.
All they can do is distort and deceive the masses who don't believe the Creator's everlasting word in the Hebrew scriptures.
You talk about the Jews and the Talmud, when all of your beliefs were decided by men.
Nov 11, 2021 05:58:17 #
To a Christian, the Old Testament and New Testament are one completed revelation to man from the One true Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
No part of either can be rejected, nor are they, nor do they contradict each other.
Your repetitious circular argument must truly be exhausting for you, and certainly pointless in its ineffectiveness.
You can in no way confirm your pugilistic claims with God's Scripture.
All that can be heard is the futility of your howling at the moon.
Please consult the Creator of the Universe, converse with Him regarding your doubts, confusion and disbelief.
No part of either can be rejected, nor are they, nor do they contradict each other.
Your repetitious circular argument must truly be exhausting for you, and certainly pointless in its ineffectiveness.
You can in no way confirm your pugilistic claims with God's Scripture.
All that can be heard is the futility of your howling at the moon.
Please consult the Creator of the Universe, converse with Him regarding your doubts, confusion and disbelief.
Michael Rich wrote:
The so called new testament is full of rebellious ... (show quote)
Nov 11, 2021 10:48:16 #
Michael Rich
Loc: Lapine Oregon
Zemirah wrote:
To a Christian, the Old Testament and New Testamen... (show quote)
Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one..Duet. 6:4...its just that simple.
We are made in God's image and we also are just one.
You keep twisting the Holy One's word and I'll refute it with simplicity.
You can make fun and down talk me from your throne of deceit, but all of your words are like the pounding of pots and pans.
We believe in different faiths, you believe the Greek bible and Paul's undermining of God's word and try to paste it onto the Tanach.
I stick to the Tanach and the single, one and only Lord of Hosts who does not give his glory to another.
If your Jesus has been with God forever, why do you celebrate his birthday?(and on a day that you know he wasn't born on)
My God is concise and down to the second when he delivered the times of sacred observances.
Nov 11, 2021 15:34:46 #
Zemirah wrote:
To a Christian, the Old Testament and New Testamen... (show quote)
Do you know of any apostates who have repented?
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