Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

The rapture of the church is not an incidental but a fundamental doctrine of the New Testament. It is the greatest hope given to the church. The biblical writers speak of it as a blessed hope (Tit 2:13), a purifying hope (1 Thess 4:18), a comforting hope (1 Thess 4:18) and a sure hope (2 Pet. 1:19).

Since there are many conflicting “opinions” among Christians concerning the rapture, the following short study should be helpful in clarifying the subject. This study will briefly examine four views regarding the rapture. To clarify in this study the terms "The Tribulation" and "Daniel’s 70th week" should be considered intercangable.

I. The Pre-tribulational Rapture
This view espouses the return of Christ to resurrect the dead church age believers and to translate the living saints before Daniel’s 70th week. This view teaches that the rapture is the next event on God’s prophetic calendar. No prophecy needs to be fulfilled before it occurs. The rapture is therefore the imminent or any-moment return of Christ for His own.

II. The Mid-tribulational Rapture View
This view argues that the rapture will occur at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week. Because only the last half of Daniel’s 70th Week is tribulation, proponents of this view believe they are really espousing a pre-tribulational rapture of the church. Like the pre-tribulationists, mid-tribulationists distinguish between the rapture and second coming and insist on a removal of the church to heaven prior to the time of the wrath of God.

III. The Pre-Wrath Rapture View
This view proposes that Daniel’s 70th Week involves three distinct periods: the beginning of sorrows spoken of in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse leading to the mid-point, the Great Tribulation that begins at the mid-point with the Abomination of Desolation, and the Day of the Lord, a period after the mid-point that begins God’s wrath beginning shortly after the rapture that is at an “unknown day and hour.” Second, this view teaches that believers will endure the time of Satan’s wrath and be persecuted by the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation. And, third, this view holds that the church must endure the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation but will be raptured just before the Day of the Lord.

IV. The Post-Tribulational View
This view teaches that the rapture and the second coming are aspects of a single event occurring at the end of Daniel’s 70th Week. Christ returns to the clouds, the church meets him in the air, and together they return to the earth. The main argument is that there are direct, unquestioned statements of Scripture that Jesus Christ will return at the end of Daniel’s 70th week and that the first resurrection will occur then, coupled with the absence of statements placing similar events before the it, make it natural to place the rapture of the Church at the end of Daniel’s 70th week.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

OK, I'll go first.

After much research and prayer, I declare that I am pre-wrath.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Hi Parky,

I admire your courage, tenacity, self-confidence and willingness to endure profound verbal abuse by even broaching this subject!

You gave no validation for your view, although because you're a serious student of the Scriptures, I'm sure you are well able to... and surely will.

I don't much engage in back and forth discussions, preferring to state my belief and reason for that belief, then exiting, stage right, although I understand that debate is the meaning and purpose of a "debate forum."

First of all, I am sure you agree that John Darby of the Plymouth Brethen DID NOT invent the Rapture during whatever Dispensational Movement occurred around 1830, so that can be taken off the table!

As for the concept of a Rapture occurring at all, the New Testament text supports the concept of a Rapture of the Church (from the Latin words, rapere and rapiemur, and from the Greek word harpazo (which appears in the New Testament), as also do the raptures of Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. There are related terms in the New Testament that have been addressed, the foremost being parousia.

In addition, are related non-scriptural, defined theological terms, foremost: eschatology, pre-millennialism,
pre-tribulationalism and imminence.

The ancient historical pre-Tribulation Rapture belief ( the only stance for which I have ever found any Biblical basis), the doctrine of the pre-millennial, pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, as a separate event from Jesus’ second coming, originated in Holy Scripture and is found in the earliest Church history.

The early Church Elders, authorities and officials (I personally prefer not to use the term "Fathers") were pre-millennialists (believing in a literal interpretation of the Book of Revelation (especially 6th chapter), with its view of a Tribulation, an Antichrist, and Jesus establishing an earthly kingdom for a thousand years, Millennium, from the Latin words milus, meaning thousand and annum, meaning years, after His Second Coming).

In this case, as with all important doctrines, there are a plural number of Scripture passages that must be consulted and compared to determine the text's true meaning.

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), as one example, a preeminent Syrian church official and witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire, clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.

Having never seen a study of the Scriptures that says otherwise, - I believe it is written in stone that the rapture will take place before the tribulation ensues, meaning the Church does not go through the tribulation at all.

John wrote to the church of Philadelphia, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Revelation 3:10).

John stated this trial would come upon “all the world.” God’s promise is to “keep” the Church “from” this terrible time. The word “keep” is the word ἐκ which is a preposition that means "out of, from," i.e., God is saying He will keep His Church "out of – from" the tribulation.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Although some would consider me a “rookie,” I’ve spent the last eight years deeply immersed in the study of end-time events and in doing so, have been led back to the Lord after having been “in the weeds” the previous 32 years after my conversion. That’s a VERY short version of my journey.

Having said that, the previous eight years started with me believing in what was called at the time a mid-tribulation rapture. From what I could discern was that this was true. Over time though, mainly through watching prophecy teachers and attending prophecy conferences – all supporting the pre-tribulation view – I came to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I had questions, I don’t recall what they were, but trusting in man instead of God, I continued believing.

However, while sitting in our hotel room one Sunday morning after one of these conferences, wanting to know more about what God had to say, I prayed to Him asking, if it were His will, to show me the truth about the rapture. Not necessarily date’s – no one knows time day or hour – but the season and how it correlates to the events of Daniel’s 70th week.

I’m not saying that all was revealed, but reading through my bible opened my eyes to what eventually through more study and conversations with biblical scholars, led me to believe that we will experience a pre-wrath rapture.

I know, not a lot of details or scriptural reference – believe me there are lots – but I just wanted to give you a quick history on how I came to believe it. But I will leave you with what is from a VERY high level, some scripture passages that lead me to believe in a pre-wrath rapture, understanding that extensive study, cross-referencing, word studies, etc. were done to make this conclusion:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Joel 2:31 and numerous others
Revelation 6:12
Revelation 7:9-17

Let’s see if we get any others to share.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Parky, for your consideration:

The Pre-Wrath Rapture: Is there any validity to this concept? By Dr. David R. Reagan

"Let’s begin with some definitions and clarifications. The term, Rapture, refers to the idea that a day will come when Jesus will appear in the heavens, at which time the dead in Christ will be resurrected to meet Him in the air and to receive their glorified bodies. Living believers will be taken up also and will be translated en route from mortal to immortal. Both the resurrected believers and the living ones will then return to Heaven with Jesus. This event is viewed by most as being separate and apart from the Second Coming of Jesus when He will return to earth to reign for a thousand years.

One other thing that needs to be made clear about the Rapture is that it is a promise to the Bride of Christ, which is the Church. It will not include Old Testament Saints. They will be resurrected at the time of the Lord’s Second Coming, at the end of the Tribulation (Daniel 12:1-2). The Tribulation Martyrs — those who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior during the Tribulation and who are killed for their faith — will also be resurrected at the time of the Second Coming.

The Question of Timing - Among those who believe in a Rapture of the Church, there is disagreement as to the timing of the event. Until recent years, there were three concepts of the Rapture’s timing:

The Pre-Trib View — This is the idea that the Rapture will take place before the Tribulation begins.
The Mid-Trib View — This viewpoint places the Rapture in the middle of the Tribulation.
The Post-Trib View — According to this view, the Rapture and the Second Coming are all one event that takes place at the end of the Tribulation.

The “Pre-Wrath” View - In 1990 Marvin Rosenthal presented a fourth viewpoint in his book, The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church. Rosenthal was not the originator of this new viewpoint. Rather, he was the one who popularized it with his book.

The person who conceived the “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture was a man named Robert Van Kampen (1938-1999). Van Kampen became one of America’s richest men through his involvement in investment banking. During his lifetime he accumulated one of the largest private collections of rare and antique Bibles in North America.

In the 1970’s Van Kampen began developing the “Pre- Wrath” concept of the timing of the Rapture. Once he had completed his work on the concept, he started trying to find a well known person in the field of Bible prophecy to endorse his new view. That person finally turned out to be Marvin Rosenthal, who at the time was serving as the director of a very influential ministry called Friends of Israel. Rosenthal tried to convince the board of the ministry to abandon its commitment to the Pre-Trib view and accept the new viewpoint. They refused, and Rosenthal was forced to depart. He went to Florida where he built the Holy Land Experience — a Christian theme park which has since been taken over by the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Today, Rosenthal serves as the director of Zion’s Hope, a ministry located in Winter Garden, Florida.

Rosenthal’s book was financed by Van Kampen’s fortune, and he mailed out thousands of copies to pastors all over America. Later, Van Kampen wrote his own books about the “Pre-Wrath” view, the most important being The Sign (1992).
The Meaning of the “Pre-Wrath” View - The “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture argues that the first three-fourths of the Tribulation is the wrath of Man and the wrath of Satan, and not the wrath of God. Therefore, the proponents of this view argue that the Church will suffer through the first three-quarters of the Tribulation since the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God.

Those who espouse this viewpoint of the Rapture’s timing believe that the Seal Judgments are the wrath of Man and Satan and that they continue throughout the first half of the Tribulation and into the second half, right up to the three-quarters point, or shortly thereafter. They place the Trumpet Judgments in the last quarter of the Tribulation and the Bowl Judgments in the first 30 days following the end of Daniel’s 70th Week of Years.

Objections to the Viewpoint of The Pre-Wrath Rapture

1) The Name — I object to the name given the viewpoint by its proponents. The name is both confusing and vague. It is confusing because both the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib views are “Pre- Wrath.” The Pre-Trib view argues that the entire 7 years of the Tribulation (Daniel’s 70th Week of Years) constitutes a pouring out of the wrath of God. The Mid-Trib view takes the position that only the second half of the Tribulation is the period of God’s wrath. So, Rosenthal’s name for his viewpoint does not distinguish it from the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib views. All three are prewrath views.

The “Pre-Wrath” name is also vague because it does not give a clue as to when the Rapture occurs in relation to the Tribulation. The name of the Pre-Trib view signifies a belief that the Rapture will occur before (pre) the Tribulation begins. The name of the Mid-Trib view clearly indicates a belief that the Rapture will occur in the middle of the Tribulation. The name of the Post-Trib view puts the Rapture after (post) the Tribulation. But the name, “Pre-Wrath” gives no indication of when the Rapture will occur with relation to the Tribulation.

For that reason, I have decided to call the “Pre-Wrath” view the Three-Quarters Tribulation Rapture viewpoint. And I will be abbreviating it throughout the rest of this article as the “3/4 Trib Rapture.” I have given it that name because its proponents believe the Rapture will occur about three-quarters of the way through the Tribulation, or shortly thereafter.

2) The Chronology — I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this. The Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half, and the Bowl Judgments are appended to a 30 day period after the close of Daniel’s 70th Week!

3) Imminence — One of my strongest objections to the 3/4 Trib view is its destruction of the imminence of the Lord’s return. The Bible emphasizes that the Lord could return at any moment and that we should live looking for His return (Matthew 24:44, 1 Corinthians 1:7, Philippians 3:20, Philippians 4:5, Colossians 3: 4, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, Titus 2:13, and Revelation 16:15). The 3/4 Trib view says the Lord cannot return until after the Antichrist appears, the Jewish Temple has been rebuilt and the world has suffered through about 5 years of the wrath of Man and Satan. Thus, according to the 3/4 Trib view, we should be living looking for the Antichrist and not Jesus Christ.

Rosenthal asserts that the Bible never says that any prophesied end time events could not occur before the Rapture. He is correct. The re-establishment of Israel is an example. The war of Gog & Magog could prove to be another example. Imminency does not preclude the fulfillment of some end time prophecies before the Rapture. Rather, it asserts that none have to happen before the Rapture can occur.

4) The Wrath of God — Another strong objection I have to the 3/4 Trib Rapture view is its mistaken concept of the sovereignty of God. The view attempts to distinguish the wrath of Man and Satan from the wrath of God. Both Man and Satan operate under the sovereignty of God. That’s why Psalm 2 pictures God sitting in Heaven laughing at the evil plots of the world’s political leaders. His laughing is not motivated by a lack of concern. He laughs because He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all the evil of Man and Satan to the triumph of His Son.

Further, the Bible portrays God pouring out His wrath both directly (Sodom and Gomorrah) and indirectly (the destruction of both Israel and Judah). God poured out His wrath upon the rebellious northern nation of Israel by allowing the Assyrians to conquer it. He even referred to the Assyrians as “the rod of My anger” (Isaiah 10:5) and “My war-club” (Jeremiah 51:20).

When the prophet Habakkuk complained about God doing nothing about the evil of the southern nation of Judah, the Lord revealed that He was going to pour out His wrath on that nation through Babylon (Habakkuk 1:6). And when the Lord was finished with Babylon, He raised up the Medes and Persians to conquer the Babylonian Empire, referring to the conquering army as “My consecrated ones” (Isaiah 13:3).

During Daniel’s 70 Weeks of Years, much of the wrath of God will be executed through the Antichrist, but it is still the wrath of God.

5) The Tribulation — I object to the way in which the 3/4 Trib Rapture view denies that the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week is part of the Tribulation. The fact of the matter is that both halves of Daniel’s 70th Week are referred to in the Scriptures as a time of tribulation. Matthew 24:9 refers to the first half as “tribulation,” and Matthew 24:21 classifies the second half as “great tribulation.” Incidentally, Jesus’ reference to the second half as the “great tribulation” does not mean it will be worse than the first half. Rather, Jesus called it that because He was speaking to a Jewish audience, and the second half of the Tribulation will be when the Antichrist will try to annihilate the Jews.

6) The Purpose of Daniel’s 70th Week — I object to the way in which the 3/4 Trib Rapture view distorts the purpose of Daniel’s 70th Week. Daniel 9:24-27 makes it clear that the purpose of Daniel’s 70 Weeks of Years is to accomplish six things among the Jewish people:

To finish transgression
To make an end of sin
To make atonement for iniquity
To bring in everlasting righteousness
To seal up vision and prophecy
To anoint the most Holy Place

Just as the first 69 weeks of years (483 years) of the prophecy had nothing to do with the Church, neither does the final week of years. The last seven year period of Daniel’s prophecy is about the accomplishment of the purposes listed above among the Jewish people. Accordingly, the entire period of Daniel’s 70th Week is referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as “the time of Jacob’s trouble.” There is no purpose for the Church during Daniel’s 70th Week.

7) The Church — I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture view of why the Church must be present during the Tribulation. Incredibly, the argument has been proclaimed that the Church must suffer “for purging and purifying.”1 The Bible says that the blood of Jesus is sufficient to cleanse us of all sin (1 John 1:7). The idea that the Church needs to be purified creates a Christian Purgatory, which is a blasphemy of the blood of Jesus. Furthermore, why is it that only the end time Church deserves this fate?

8) The Seal Judgments — I strongly object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture view that the Seal Judgments do not constitute any portion of the wrath of God. The judgments originate at the throne of God when Jesus begins to open each seal (Revelation 6:1). Further, they are referred to as “the wrath of the Lamb” (Revelation 6:16-17).

9) The Length of Daniel’s 70th Week of Years — I object to the fact that the 3/4 Trib Rapture view extends Daniel’s 70th Week by 30 days beyond the 7 years or 2,520 days it is supposed to run (Revelation 11:3 and 12:6). There is just no scriptural basis for this extension.

10) The Day of the Lord — I object to the 3/4 Trib view of the Day of the Lord. Rosenthal contends that it begins with the opening of the 7th Seal, and he therefore argues that the wrath of God does not begin until this point.

The problem here is that the Day of the Lord is a term that is used in many different ways in the Bible, and it must always be interpreted in context. There are places when it refers to specific national judgments from God, as when Israel was destroyed by Assyria (Amos 5:18-20) and when Judah was destroyed by Babylon (Lamentations 2:21-22 and Ezekiel 13:5). In like manner the fall of Babylon is called the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 13:6- 13).

But there are also times when the term refers to end time events. In this regard, it sometimes refers to the return of Jesus at the end of Daniel’s 70th Week (Isaiah 2:10-22, Joel 3:9-17 and Zechariah 14:1-9). In other end time contexts, the term is used in a broader sense. For example, in Zephaniah 1:14-18 it is used to refer to the entire period of the Tribulation when “all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy…” In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 it says the Day of the Lord will come at a time when people are feeling safe and secure — which would be at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, after the Antichrist negotiates a treaty that guarantees peace for Israel. But the prophet Isaiah repeatedly uses a shorthand version of the term — “in that day” — to refer to the Millennium (Isaiah 4:2-6). I therefore think that in reference to the end times, the broad use of the term refers to the period of time from the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week to the end of the Millennium.

(Con't. on following page)

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Conclusion to The Pre-Wrath Rapture: Is there any validity to this concept?

By Dr. David R. Reagan

We are currently in the Day of the Spirit (Acts 2:17 and 2 Corinthians 3:8). Daniel’s 70th Week plus the Millennium constitutes the Day of the Lord. The Eternal State will be the Day of God (2 Peter 3:12).

Other Problems

One of the strangest parts of Rosenthal’s book is chapter 16 (pages 215-230). In this chapter he attacks the Pre-Trib Rapture view as espousing two separate comings of the Lord. He then proclaims: “There is not even a hint — anywhere — of two separate comings” (page 222).

In response to this attack, I would like to point out that the Pre-Trib view does not present two comings of the Lord. Instead, it advocates an appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) followed at least 7 years later by the coming of the Lord (the Second Coming). Jesus does not return to the earth at the Rapture. He appears in the heavens for His Church, receives them, and then returns to Heaven with them.

But what is so weird about Rosenthal’s attack is that his end time viewpoint presents multiple comings of the Lord — so many, in fact, that it is hard to chart them. Take a look at the chart again. The first “coming” of the Lord I have shown is the Rapture. But Rosenthal has several other “comings.”

At the end of Daniel’s 70th Week, Jesus returns to earth to save Israel from annihilation, after which He returns to Heaven. Then, at the end of the “30 days of Reclamation” Jesus returns again to defeat Satan at the Battle of Armageddon. Following the “45 days of Restoration,” Jesus returns to Heaven, gathers His Church, and returns to begin His thousand year reign. So, Rosenthal has a total of four “comings” of Jesus, yet he has the audacity to assert there is only one “coming” of the Lord and he condemns the Pre-Trib view for having two!

This amounts to mass confusion. Rosenthal recognizes the problem and tries to cover it by stating that Jesus has a “continuing presence” on the earth after the Rapture, and thus His four comings are really only parts of the one Second Coming. This is all nothing but semantic smoke. In the Pre-Trib view the Rapture is also followed by a “continuing presence” of Jesus on earth as He launches the wrath of God with the Seal Judgments and oversees the continuing implementation of God’s wrath with the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments, after which He returns to earth to reign.

A Cornerstone Verse?

A friend of mine, Michael Pfeil, recently published a book in which he defends the 3/4 Trib Rapture viewpoint.2 He argues that the cornerstone verses for the view are Revelation 6:9-10, which read as follows:

9) When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Pfeil’s argument is that these are martyrs killed for their faith during the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week. He then says that if they are victims of God’s wrath, then they are calling out for vengeance against God! He argues, instead, that they are victims of the Antichrist and are crying out for vengeance against him — and this, in turn proves that the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week constitutes the wrath of Man and Satan, and not the wrath of God.

The problem with this argument is that when the wrath of God is poured out, it falls on the just and the unjust unless God specifically promises protection to believers. He has promised the Church such protection (1 Thessalonians 1:10). He has also promised that He will protect the 144,000 Jews who are sealed by His Spirit at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1- 8 and 14:1-5).

But He has made no such promise of protection for those who receive Jesus during the Tribulation. They will suffer just as Daniel and his cohorts suffered when Judah fell to the Babylonians. The rain falls on the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45), and the just who suffer martyrdom during the Tribulation will cry out for vengeance against their executioners.

Conclusion

The 3/4 Trib Rapture concept does not pass the test of the Scriptures. Even worse, as Jack Van Impe has put it, the concept is “the Christians’ ultimate nightmare” rather than their “blessed hope”3 (Titus 2:11-13).

Notes

1) Alan Kurschner, “Prewrath — What Is It?” www.AlanKurschner.com.wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Prewrath.pdf, page 1. See also: Cooper Abrams, “Fatal Flaws in the Modern Pre-Wrath Rapture Position,” http://bible-truth.org/Pre-Wrath.html, page 12.

2) Michael E. Pfeil, Rapture of the Church: Bound for Heaven, BUT…” (Bloomington, IN: Westbow Press, 2013).

3) Jack Van Impe, “What validity, if any, should be given to the Prewrath Rapture theory?” www.jvim.com/newsletter/pastissues/ 2012/20120723.html, page 1.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

The Pre-Wrath viewpoint diagrammed:

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

For God did not appoint us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9

The Pre-Wrath View of the Rapture
The pre-wrath position is not some fly-by-night view but can be articulated and defended from a scholarly perspective. On the Internet there seems to be many people claiming to critique the pre-wrath view who clearly don't appear to know what the pre-wrath view teaches, which is one of the greatest obstacles to a true understanding. People are unaware of what this view is actually saying.

The book of Revelation gives us very vivid images of the wrath of God. It is symbolized as a scroll. There are seals that are keeping the scroll from being opened. Revelation 5:2 says, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll”. The answer is given "but one of the elders said to me 'do not weep, behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has pre-vailed to open the scroll and to loose it's seven seals." Christ came the first time as a Suffering Servant, to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. The next time he will come in judgment. After all who is worthy to judge but he who has no sin. Acts 7:31 says, “because he has appointed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising him from the dead.”

In the last days the wrath of God will be played out during a specific time called the ‘Day of the Lord’. This day is referred to quite a lot in the Old and New Testament, in fact, about 70 times. It is a time period of longer than one day so don't let that throw you off.

In short, the day of the Lord will be God’s judgment and vindication that will be decisive. The Lord will appear in the clouds to bestow glorified bodies and deliver his people (the rapture). That day will be a joyous manifestation for those who belong to God; but it will begin a series of horrific, heart-stopping judgments for those who do not.

There are two key prophets on the day of the Lord: Joel and Zephaniah. Joel describes a vital event relating to events that will happen before the day of the Lord: the celestial disturbance event (cf. Matthew 24:29; Revelation 6:12-17).

Joel 2:30–31 “I will produce portents both in the sky and on the earth—blood, fire, and
columns of smoke. The sunlight will be turned to darkness and the moon to the color of blood, before the day of the Lord comes—that great and terrible day!”

Which brings up a vague and misleading term, “the Tribulation period,” that begs a crucial biblical distinction: Antichrist’s great tribulation and the day of the Lord’s wrath. One of the most important things to understand is that the persecution of Christians by the antichrist is not the wrath of God but instead the wrath of Satan. In Revelation 12 it says, "Therefore rejoice O heavens and you that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea for the devil has come down to you having great wrath because he knows he has but a short time and what does he do with that short time? He makes war against the saints and overcomes them.

Some important characteristics of the Day of the Lord and the wrath of God are that it is against the wicked and when it happens the Lord alone will be exalted. Satan's wrath however seems to be just the opposite. According to the Scriptures it is against the righteous and, the Antichrist is exalted. Reading 2 Thessalonians 24:

Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing him-self that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

We also know that it is this event, sometimes called the abomination of desolation where the antichrist exalts himself, that the persecution of the Christians begins in full swing.

Daniel, Matthew, and John in Revelation all tie his bold actions here in the temple that start the Great Tribulation, the abomination of desolation, to the start of serious persecution of Christians, but Christ says that this particular persecution will be cut short for the elect’s sake. God's wrath is what will bring Satan's wrath to an end. God will rescue his people from the Antichrist persecution and begin the day Lord, which we have discussed to be a fairly long period of time and is represented by the trumpet judgments and the bowls wrath in the book of Revelation.

The Rapture and The Day of the Lord: Back-to-Back Events
Looking closer at the context of 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 will help us to transition into something that I think is really important and something that the Church of the New Testament, as well as the early church fathers, seemed to be well aware of. That is, that the rapture and the Day of the Lord were back-to-back events. It makes perfect sense if you think about it. We are told that we are going to be raptured before God's wrath and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath. So, it would stand to reason that soon after we are raptured the wrath would begin.

This would also explain all the verses that tell Christians to look forward to and hasten the Day of the Lord. Or, as Luke puts it, “to lift up your head”, but yet in the same breath they speak of it as a punishment for the wicked. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 1:

Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

Paul is saying that the repayment of the wicked will happen on the same day of the churches glorification. Keep in mind that this is the beginning of the letter written by Paul to a church that he praises for their patient endurance through what seems to be brutal persecutions.

Paul wrote this letter because they had apparently been taught that they had missed the rapture and were in the Day of the Lord because of their torments. This opening of the second letter to the Thessalonians is assuring them that the rapture is still a future event and that the rapture will in fact deliver them from the tribulations when it does happen. As we will see it is literally impossible to understand the next chapter, 2 Thessalonians 2, one of the most debated versus in rapture history, unless you understand that Paul believed and taught the Thessalonians that the rapture would initiate the Day of the Lord.

Paul also interchanges the idea of the rapture and the Day of the Lord in the most famous rapture verse ever, that is, 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. But, it often goes unnoticed because there is a chapter break right in the middle of the chapter. Chapter 5 keeps right on going with the same thought. This says,

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Then there is the chapter break. But, then it continues,

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 1 Thessalonians 5:1

The subject of this whole passage never changed. They were always talking about the rapture. Paul simply refers to the rapture as the Day of the Lord.

Paul's theology in this regard is demonstrated in almost all of his letters. He says things like, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:7-8)

So, Paul, who is about to be executed writes that he looks forward, as we all should, to that day. The "D" is capitalized in most translations as it is speaking of the Day of the Lord. The word appearing here is a fairly rare word. It's used only six times in the New Testament and all of those by Paul. It's obvious he thinks it is the rapture.

Keeping consistent with his theology he also uses the word to refer to the Day the Lord that will begin to destroy the antichrist he says:

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

I could go on and I may have left out some details, but as you can see, in my opinion this is a viable view and is well backed up by the bible interpreting the bible. While we may not agree on the doctrine, this is not a salvation issue. For our sakes I hope that you’re right but my gut says to prepare for severe persecution and likely death. After all weren’t the early Christians and the apostles persecuted and put to death for their faith. Jesus said: These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world (John 16:33). But regardless of who is “right.” I expect to meet and spend eternity with you Zemirah.

PS. The link for http://www.alankurschner.com.wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Prewrath.pdf didn't work.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Your chart isn't quite right the way I understand. The second coming of Christ is the Greek word parousia which entails the entire time from the Rapture to the beginning of the Millennium.

The word is actually fairly rare in the New Testament. Being used only 24 times, and this, compared with the usual word for "coming" which is used 222 times. When this word "Parousia" is used of Christ it is almost used in a technical sense in order to refer to Jesus’ coming in the last days. Notice in the definition that this includes and encompasses all the things that Christ will do starting with the rapture, His visible return, and the raising of the dead. But it also includes the last judgment as well as the setting up of the Kingdom after Armageddon. The rapture will be the first thing to happen at his coming or "Parousia". However, there are not multiple Parousias such as, one “Parousia” at the rapture, and then another one at Armageddon. There is only one word that is used to describe all of those tasks.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Parky, the chart was from Dr. David R. Reagan, founder of Lamb & Lion Ministries on April 1, 1980, as was the essay opposing pre-wrath.

Dr. Reagan is a native Texan who resides in a suburb of Dallas. His graduate degrees were earned in the field of International Relations from the Fletcher School of Law & Diplomacy of Tufts and Harvard Universities.

Before entering the ministry, he was Director of Pepperdine University’s Center for International Business in Los Angeles; In the mid-’60s Dave served as a Fulbright Lecturer at the University of the Philippines and toured all of Southeast Asia lecturing on U.S. foreign policy on behalf of the U.S. Information Agency.

Dave is a life-long Bible student, teacher, and preacher. He entered the full-time ministry in 1976 when he was called to serve a church in Irving, Texas.

He is the author of 17 books, translated into multiple languages, and many religious essays published in a wide variety of journals and magazines.

I believe this works now: www.AlanKurschner.com.wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Prewrath.pdf

I had omitted the necessary space between .pdf and the following page number.

It pulled up several sites, one definitely obsolete, a debate in 2015, which obviously, we missed.

This would have been interesting with Alan Kurschner (whom I know nothing about) arguing pro - pre-wrath against Thomas Ice of the Pre-Trib Research Center, who opposes pre-wrath.

I've had several of Thomas Ice's books for the last 25 or 30 years, - he's "seasoned."

Here is a better link on Dr. Ice's website:
https://www.pre-trib.org/item/12-pre-trib-vs-pre-wrath-rapture-debate

Debate Transcript: The Church Will Face the Antichrist P a g e | 1

Alan Kurschner and Thomas Ice. September 25, 2015. Plano Texas. Transcript edited by Doug Eigsti.
Rapture Debate Topic:
The Church Will Face the Antichrist Before the Rapture.
Location: The Hope Center, Plano, Texas. September 25th, 2015

Participants:
Alan Kurschner—Affirmative
Eschatos Ministries
Dr. Thomas (Tommy) Ice—Negative
Pre-Trib Research Center

Parky, There are varying opinions on what the word "parousia" encompasses:

I consider the period between the rapture and the beginning of the millennium to be a minimum of seven years.

parousia - noun
the second coming of Christ

Wiktionary, More at Wordnik

Parousia | Definition of Parousia by Merriam-Webster
the time when Jesus Christ will return to judge humanity at the end of the world: second coming.

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Parousia
Parousia (/ p ə ˈ r uː z i ə /; Greek: παρουσία) is an ancient Greek word meaning presence, arrival, or official visit.

What is the Parousia? | GotQuestions.org
The Greek word parousia (pronounced pair-oo-see-ah) is a noun that means "a coming" or "a presence." As it is used in the New Testament, it can refer to any individual's coming or presence to a specific place or to be with specific people.


Parousia Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon .
Noun Feminine. Definition. presence. the coming, arrival, advent. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.
Word Usage - Total: 24. coming 22, presence 2. Verse Count. Matthew.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Still couldn't get the link to work.

While lengthy, please view this video in its entirety.