straightUp Loc: California

I tend to agree... I'm sure there are *some* positive elements to the impact neoliberalism has on developing countries, but I feel confident in saying that such things are byproducts at best, with the priority always being a matter of profit. I've been critical of our foreign policy since Carter and it hasn't really changed in the 45 years since.


That was before imperialism became a dirty word. TDR was a strong advocate of American Imperialism. Our conquest of the Philippines is a treasure trove of evidence, that we were just as bad as Britain, France or any other purveyor of colonial oppression. Thanks for mentioning the book. I had a quick look at it on Amazon... very interesting.


Manifest Destiny.


Another awesome book. I've read it more than once.


We may be talking about two different things... There are the motives that drive conquest and there are the sentiments that support them. I think that superiority complex you speak of is an example the later. Religious fanaticism, fear mongering and p***e are always a good source of support for an aggressive policy, but the motives that drive such policies are almost always something more pragmatic, such as the exploitation of resources.

Technology and globalization has changed the environment considerably in the last century. Nations do not exist in physical isolation anymore - everyone is interconnected via digital networks and the value extracted from resources in one nation can be wired instantly to anywhere else in the world. This makes the exploitation of a nation a lot easier and in most cases, physical conquest isn't even needed. This allows people like Bush to say things like how "democracies don't wage war on each other". What he was really talking about was a peaceful submission to the one-world-order, otherwise known as neoliberalism.

I find it interesting that present the ability to conquer as an addendum to the superiority complex. From my perspective, our ability to conquer is an illusion that comes as *part* of our superiority complex. Clearly, our failure in Afghanistan puts our ability to conquer in question. After 20 years of trying we couldn't do it and it's not the first time this happened either... we also failed in Vietnam. Even Somalia! It's become obvious to everyone outside the American ego bubble that we aren't quite the *badasses* we think we are... We just have a LOT of expensive equipment and we're really good at forgetting that we ever lost a war.


There's another book called Guns, Steel and Germs by Jared Diamond that dives into what you are talking about here.

moldyoldy

I think we have the ability to conquer, but not the will. Bombing Japan showed that ability,but public sentiment is against doing that. In Vietnam soldiers overstepped the rules of war, same thing in Abu Graib. The public condemned those actions. The military industrial complex also does not want our enemies destroyed. Who knows when they may need to attack them again for profit.

straightUp Loc: California

This is the self-absorbed delusion that seems to prevail among Americans that have never traveled anywhere outside their own town. - LOL

The only countries that h**e us are the ones we viciously oppress and no, they do NOT want to be us.

It's worth mentioning that *some* parts of America *are* inspirational to others. Our constitution being a big one. In fact, many countries have modeled their own constitutions on ours. Otherwise, a lot of what we mistake for respect and admiration is a false impression created by Hollywood, especially during the afterglow of WW2.

Indeed, really cool stars like Elvis and John Wayne became the American persona to people all over the world. But most foreign people I've talked to in recent years have convinced me that the bubble popped some time ago.

I think people in really s**tty places still like the idea of moving to America, but they say the same thing about moving to Canada or Europe. In fact the U.S. isn't even a first choice anymore.

First hand experience has also shown me that some Europeans are very grateful NOT to be American and I can see why... we tend to be the biggest suckers on the planet. Compared to Europe, we are forced to work more and spend less time with our families, we pay the most for healthcare and in return get the worst healthcare system of all and half of our taxes fund wars that don't benefit us.

Sorry if this sounds "anti-patriotic"... my intention isn't so much to insult the American people as much as to slap some sense into someone who seems sold on this illusion that everyone in the world wants to be us.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

This is not history, not even revisionist history, this is a wholly fabricated America bashing opinion presented as such. A hackneyed bit of l*****t bromide, fact-less, baseless, without proof, validation or verification.

Put the terrorists on a pedestal, hand the keys of righteousness to the violent extremists,
Allahhu akbar, God is great, praise be unto him.
And condemn America as the cause of it all.


The seeds of violent Jihad were planted in Egypt 70 years ago, right about the time Israel became a sovereign nation. The Egyptian journalist and teacher who planted them is considered the godfather of the Muslim Brotherhood. His radicalization of Islam violated the Koranic prohibition on Muslims committing suicide for any reason.

In the beginning, his extremist approach to "Pure Islam" was directed at the secular Egyptian government. (He wanted a government based solely on Sharia.) Although he was eventually arrested, convicted and hung for his extremism, the writings he produced appealed to many disaffected and disenfranchised Muslims, particularly young Muslim men, who were dev**ed to their religion and whose desires for a purely Islamic government were strong.

The founder of violent Jihad was dead, but his extremism on behalf of pure Islam took root. And grew. And spread. And, inspired many young Muslim men to join the Mujahadeen in A-stan fighting the Soviets. Many of these men were no allowed to return to their home countries, and though they were then men without a country, they had a cause, and they knew how to fight. They pursued that cause with considerable dedication and zeal.

These young Muslims were ripe for recruitment into terrorist organizations. OBL's Al Qaeda and Zawahiri's Al Jihad.

Both Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri were students of this Egyptian extremist, both of them had serious bones to pick with the governments of their respective nations - Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Both of them joined the Muslim Brotherhood. Eventually, their objective was Global Jihad. Terrorize the entire world into submission to a world governed by Sharia.

Every free society, every democracy or republic, even C*******t countries, were condemned to radical Islam's target list - the fact that America or Britain or France or Canada or Russia or any other Infidel nation exists is the prime mover of global Islamic Jihad.

I won't continue with this simply because my research and studies of Islam and the birth of violent Jihad began when Muslim terrorists k**led 343 of my fellow firefighters in NYC. So, I found the best sources I could, books and papers written by objective authors who had no skin in the game, and including some Muslims who did.

" We Americans are not interested in learning how "evil" we are."

By the grace of God, It sickens me to deal with such ignorance.
And, I've barely scratched the surface.

straightUp Loc: California

The will is a factor, that's for sure, but I'm not so sure about the ability. I certainly think we have the ability to destroy things, but that's not the same thing as conquering. Conquest is where you take control of a nation and since we've been a superpower, we've been able to destroy plenty targets but we haven't conquered anyone.

As for the will... like, I said it's a factor but I don't think it's significant enough to be an excuse.

The public was opposed to the war in Vietnam from the moment young Americans were being drafted to fight and yet this went on for 19 years... so it's hard to accept that public opinion is the reason for our failure in Vietnam.

During the war in Afghanistan our "will" was even less a factor because no one was drafted into that war and the military only accounts for 3% of the population, so there was far less public resistance and yet it still took us 20 years to finally give up.


Again, that was a matter of destruction not conquest. since the event happened AFTER Japan was ready to surrender, it's impossible to know if that destruction had much to do with the conquest.


Again, 19 years of war in Vietnam and protests in America tell me that public opinion is largely ignored until it becomes an convenient excuse to blame failure on. Also, if a country tries for 19 years before finally "giving into public opinion" would you really say that they are capable of conquest?


LOL - Alright, you got me there.

straightUp Loc: California

Well, then... someone's got their panties in a knot, just as Tiptop had predicted (easy prediction).

You're wrong of course, the original post is mostly inferred from a well established set of facts. It's very-high level assessment based on about 40 years of personal research so it's not like I just read an article - here's the link.

But if there is anything specific you want to challenge feel free to do so and I can grab wh**ever proof you need.


This is a perfect example of what I described in the original post when I said it's imperative to the American psyche to be seen as the heroes, not the villains. You're so offended that I would put any blame on America that you automatically assume I am praising the terrorists. LOL

But there is no praise for the terrorists in my post. There is only a critique of our own role in the situation, which is more about taking responsibility for our own actions than "bashing America". But to the American patri***t (like that? patriot+i***t?) assuming ANY responsibility for what we do instead of finding ways to blame other's is anti-American and worth a bag of insults.


I did forget to mention that our support for Israel's inhuman treatment of the Palestinian people was another stated reason for the 9/11 attacks. Or at least that's what bin Laden was suggesting.

I don't have any reason to disagree with your statement about the seeds of jihad as it doesn't really conflict with anything I've said.


OK... Again, no conflict with anything I've said so far.


Ohhh... you were doing OK for a while. Everything up to the global jihad thing which is total BS.


Wow you are really deep in dogma... Can you breathe OK?


Yeah, that's when a LOT of amateurs started "researching" Islam. We were attacked, we were angry, we didn't understand and we were looking to lash out at something. It sounds like 9/11 hit close to home for you and I don't blame you for being so emotional about it. But t***h has a funny way of not caring how you feel. Just because you're angry and you want to blame the jihad doesn't change the fact that it was our foreign policy that invited that jihad to NYC that day.

I've done bit of "research too" and I found massive volumes of information on Islam that was almost entirely put together by decidedly anti-Muslim sources... Big sellers too because Americans were looking for reasons to put ALL the blame on evil Muslims.

None of that matters however, because global jihad is BS, the focus of the jihad that actually exists is their own world, not ours. The ONLY reason why they attacked us is because WE were interfering with THEIR world.


LOL - well, that "ignorance" sure got YOU pegged. Maybe that's what you find so sickening.


No... you've reached the bottom of what you have to offer. I'm sure you have reams of BS material ready to go but your argument is quite simple. Don't blame us, blame them. There's really not much you can add to that.

straightUp Loc: California

I'm going to state for the record here.... That within the context of 9/11 my reference to "bad USA" is not a reference to the American people. I am referring specifically to U.S. Foreign Policy which has been perpetuated by politicians in both the major parties since the start of the Cold War. If anything, I view the American people as victims caught in a political crossfire. All the more reason to learn and to recognize the effects of our own state department. Just blaming Jihad isn't going to change anything.

As I've always told my kids... You can't change other people, but you can change yourself.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

I certainly expected one of your convoluted, highly prejudiced, piece by piece, item by item, pseudo-intellectual breakdowns.

I'm not playing your blame game. I blame neither the Jihadists nor America nor anyone else.

With very good reasons, it can be said the goal of the American left is quite similar to that of the original Jihadists - destroy the system of government in their own countries and replace it with their own.

Pulitzer: The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11
A sweeping narrative history of the events leading to 9/11, a groundbreaking look at the people and ideas, the terrorist plans and the Western intelligence failures that culminated in the assault on America. Lawrence Wright's remarkable book is based on five years of research and hundreds of interviews that he conducted in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, England, France, Germany, Spain, and the United States.

The Looming Tower achieves an unprecedented level of intimacy and insight by telling the story through the interweaving lives of four men: the two leaders of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri; the FBI's counterterrorism chief, John O'Neill; and the former head of Saudi intelligence, Prince Turki al-Faisal.

As these lives unfold, we see revealed: the crosscurrents of modern Islam that helped to radicalize Zawahiri and bin Laden . . . the birth of al-Qaeda and its unsteady development into an organization capable of the American embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania and the attack on the USS Cole . . . O'Neill's heroic efforts to track al-Qaeda before 9/11, and his tragic death in the World Trade towers . . . Prince Turki's t***sformation from bin Laden's ally to his enemy . . . the failures of the FBI, CIA, and NSA to share intelligence that might have prevented the 9/11 attacks.

The Looming Tower broadens and deepens our knowledge of these signal events by taking us behind the scenes. Here is Sayyid Qutb, founder of the modern Islamist movement, lonely and despairing as he meets Western culture up close in 1940s America; the privileged childhoods of bin Laden and Zawahiri; family life in the al-Qaeda compounds of Sudan and Afghanistan; O'Neill's high-wire act in balancing his all-consuming career with his equally entangling personal life--he was living with three women, each of them unaware of the others' existence--and the nitty-gritty of turf battles among U.S. intelligence agencies.

Brilliantly conceived and written, The Looming Tower draws all elements of the story into a galvanizing narrative that adds immeasurably to our understanding of how we arrived at September 11, 2001. The richness of its new information, and the depth of its perceptions, can help us deal more wisely and effectively with the continuing terrorist threat.

USMA: Twenty Years After 9/11: What Is the Future of the Global Jihadi Movement?

Beyond al-Qaeda; Part 1, The Global Jihadist Movement

The Global Jihadist Movement and Cyberterrorism

The Global Jihad

USAFA Institute for National Security Studies: Global Insurgency and the Salafi Jihad Movement

Al Qaeda and ISIS 20 years after 9/11
Twenty years after the 9/11 attacks, the global jihadist movement has more fighters in more countries than ever before. The way Salafi-jihadi groups, including al Qaeda, have sought to achieve their aims has evolved since 2001, but the core belief that violent jihad must be waged to restore Islam in Muslim societies has not changed.

Terrorism: Global Jihad - Evolving and Adapting

Rose42

I’ve lived overseas and its not true that the only countries that h**e us are ones we’ve “viciously oppressed”. In fact there’s a wide variety among various populaces. Your blanket statement is false. Even among the countries we’ve “viciously oppressed” thats far from true of everyone.

martsiva

These attacks could not have happened without inside help!! That is a fact!! Why is no one addressing what these attacks produced? A 'war on terror' which produced endless wars. Who benefitted from that? Why is no one addressing that these wars were all in countries that had major resources? Bin Laden was in Afghanistan - not Iraq but Iraq was invaded anyway based on a lie!! - major resources!! Did Libya, that was attacked, have anything to do with 911?? This attack also produces the un-Constitutional Patriot Act!! These are things that nobody wants to post about!

martsiva

What a bunch of BS!! NO - Christians do not oppose birth control NO Christians do not oppose drug legislation - NO not all Christians oppose the death penalty!! All the rest of your 'opposes' are what decent people of all stripes find d********g!! What - you support them??

permafrost Loc: Minnesota

Wow, martsiva, this may stir up some interesting comments.. Libya,, is perhaps the single most confounding war of these oil wars,, I have never figured out a way the justify the war itself and most of all the destruction of the worlds greatest watering system.. did not so much as get started moving water from 1000s of wells, and imagine the life improvement for the people.. which was amazing and even the factory for new parts was destroyed.. by the brits, but was all via a mutual effort..

And the Patriot act.. one of the worst bills ever passed by our government.. fear or not.. it was and is a travesty..

permafrost Loc: Minnesota

So, you do admit that you and the Muslim nut are hand in glove.. OK, got it..

martsiva

Gaddafi was going on a gold only for payments which is why he was k**led - that and all the vast resources found in Libya.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

No, it is not a fact that Al Qaeda had "inside help", wh**ever that is supposed to mean.

Everything you are complaining about came about AFTER the attacks. No one in the Bush administration envisioned a Patriot Act or a TSA until after the attacks.

If you need answers to your questions, I suggest you avoid 9/11 conspiracy theories and find sources that provide credible, verifiable information. There is certainly an abundance of them, and some were produced by Muslims. Quite a number of Muslims were appalled by the tragedy on 9/11.

I posted the following in this thread, I suggest you get a copy and read it.
Or, don't. Makes no difference to me.


Pulitzer: The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11
A sweeping narrative history of the events leading to 9/11, a groundbreaking look at the people and ideas, the terrorist plans and the Western intelligence failures that culminated in the assault on America. Lawrence Wright's remarkable book is based on five years of research and hundreds of interviews that he conducted in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, England, France, Germany, Spain, and the United States.

The Looming Tower achieves an unprecedented level of intimacy and insight by telling the story through the interweaving lives of four men: the two leaders of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri; the FBI's counterterrorism chief, John O'Neill; and the former head of Saudi intelligence, Prince Turki al-Faisal.

As these lives unfold, we see revealed: the crosscurrents of modern Islam that helped to radicalize Zawahiri and bin Laden . . . the birth of al-Qaeda and its unsteady development into an organization capable of the American embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania and the attack on the USS Cole . . . O'Neill's heroic efforts to track al-Qaeda before 9/11, and his tragic death in the World Trade towers . . . Prince Turki's t***sformation from bin Laden's ally to his enemy . . . the failures of the FBI, CIA, and NSA to share intelligence that might have prevented the 9/11 attacks.

The Looming Tower broadens and deepens our knowledge of these signal events by taking us behind the scenes. Here is Sayyid Qutb, founder of the modern Islamist movement, lonely and despairing as he meets Western culture up close in 1940s America; the privileged childhoods of bin Laden and Zawahiri; family life in the al-Qaeda compounds of Sudan and Afghanistan; O'Neill's high-wire act in balancing his all-consuming career with his equally entangling personal life--he was living with three women, each of them unaware of the others' existence--and the nitty-gritty of turf battles among U.S. intelligence agencies.

Brilliantly conceived and written, The Looming Tower draws all elements of the story into a galvanizing narrative that adds immeasurably to our understanding of how we arrived at September 11, 2001. The richness of its new information, and the depth of its perceptions, can help us deal more wisely and effectively with the continuing terrorist threat.