Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I truly enjoy this site and see myself posting numerous threads concerning its insights...

I suggest that those who find it offensive try being adults and simply refrain from engaging on the thread...

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2020/09/17/john-1030-38-did-jesus-really-claim-to-be-god/

SWMBO

That is the grown up way to handle it but some of the people on OPP are babies in grown up bodies.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

My sentiments exactly...

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

THE DEITY OF CHRIST

By Professor Benjamin B. Warfield, D. D., LL. D.,
Princeton Theological Seminary

A recent writer has remarked that our assured conviction of the deity of Christ rests, not upon "proof-texts or passages, nor upon old arguments drawn from these, but upon the general fact of the whole manifestation of Jesus Christ, and of the whole impression left by Him upon the world." The antithesis is too absolute, and possibly betrays an unwarranted distrust of the evidence of Scripture. To make it just, we should read the statement rather thus: Our conviction of the deity of Christ rests not alone on the scriptural passages which assert it, but also on His entire impression on the world; or perhaps thus: Our conviction rests not more on the scriptural assertions than upon His entire manifestation. Both lines of evidence are valid; and when twisted together form an unbreakable cord. The proof texts and passages do prove that Jesus was esteemed divine by those who companied with Him; that He esteemed Himself divine; that He was recognized as divine by those who were taught by the Spirit; that in fine, He was divine.

TESTIMONY IN SOLUTION

The very abundance and persuasiveness of the evidence of the deity of Christ greatly increases the difficulty of adequately stating it. This is true even of the scriptural evidence, as precise and definite as much of it is. For it is a true remark of Dr. Dale's that the particular texts in which it is definitely asserted are far from the whole, or even the most impressive, proofs which the Scriptures supply of our Lord's deity. He compares these texts to the salt-crystals which appear on the sand of the sea-beach after the tide has receded. "These are not," he remarks, "the strongest, though they may be the most apparent, proofs that the sea is salt; the salt is present in solution in every bucket of sea-water." The deity of Christ is in solution in every page of the New Testament. Every word that is spoken of Him, every word which He is reported to have spoken of Himself, is spoken on the assumption that He is God. And that is the reason why the "criticism" which addresses itself to eliminating the testimony of the New Testament to the deity of our Lord has set itself a hopeless task. The New Testament itself would have to be eliminated. Nor can we get behind this testimony. Because the deity of Christ is the presupposition of every word of the New Testament, it is impossible to select words out of the New Testament from which to construct earlier documents in which the deity of Christ shall not be assumed. The assured conviction of the deity of Christ is coeval with Christianity itself. There never was a Christianity, neither in the times of the Apostles nor since, of which this was not a prime tenet.

A SATURATED GOSPEL

Let us observe in an example or two how thoroughly saturated the Gospel narrative is with the assumption of the deity of Christ, so that it crops out in the most unexpected ways and places.

In three passages of Matthew, reporting words of Jesus, He is represented as speaking familiarly and in the most natural manner in the world, of "His angels" (Matthew 3:41-42; Matthew 16:27; Matthew 24:31). In all three He designates Himself as the "Son of man"; and in all three there are additional suggestions of His majesty. "The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that cause stumbling and those that do iniquity, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire."

Who is this Son of man who has angels, by whose instrumentality the final judgment is executed at His command? "The Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then shall He reward every man according to his deeds." Who is this Son of man surrounded by His angels, in whose hands are the issues of life? The Son of man "shall send forth His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Who is this Son of man at whose behest His angels winnow men? A scrutiny of the passages will show that it is not a peculiar body of angels which is meant by the Son of man's angels, but just the angels as a body, who are His to serve Him as He commands. In a word, Jesus Christ is above angels (Mark 13:32)—as is argued at explicit length at the beginning of the Epistle to the Hebrews. "To which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand. etc." (Hebrews 1:13).

HEAVEN COME TO EARTH

There are three parables recorded in the fifteenth chapter of Luke as spoken by our Lord in His defense against the murmurs of the Pharisees at His receiving sinners and eating with them. The essence of the defense which our Lord offers for Himself is, that there is joy in heaven over repentant sinners [Luke 15:7; Luke 15:10]! Why "in heaven," "before the throne of God"? Is He merely setting the judgment of heaven over against that of earth, or pointing forward to His future vindication? By no means. He is representing His action in receiving sinners, in seeking the lost, as His proper action, because it is the normal conduct of heaven, manifested in Him. He is heaven come to earth. His defense is thus simply the unveiling of what the real nature of the transaction is. The lost when they come to Him are received because this is heaven's way; and He cannot act otherwise than in heaven's way. He tacitly assumes the good Shepherd's part as His own.

THE UNIQUE POSITION

All the great designations are not so much asserted as assumed by Him for Himself. He does not call Himself a prophet, though He accepts this designation from others: He places Himself above all the prophets, even above John the greatest of the prophets, as Him to whom all the prophets look forward. If He calls Himself Messiah, He fills that term, by doing so, with a deeper significance, dwelling ever on the unique relation of Messiah to God as His representative and His Son. Nor is He satisfied to represent Himself merely as standing in a unique relation to God: He proclaims Himself to be the recipient of the divine fullness, the sharer in all that God has (Matthew 11:28). He speaks freely of Himself indeed as God's Other, the manifestation of God on earth, whom to have seen was to have seen the Father also, and who does the work of God on earth. He openly claims divine prerogatives—the reading of the heart of man, the forgiveness of sins, the exercise of all authority in heaven and earth. Indeed, all that God has and is He asserts Himself to have and be; omnipotence, omniscience, perfection belong as to the one so to the other. Not only does He perform all divine acts; His self-consciousness coalesces with the divine consciousness. If His followers lagged in recognizing His deity, this was not because He was not God or did not sufficiently manifest His deity. It was because they were foolish and slow of heart to believe what lay patently before their eyes.

THE GREAT PROOF

The Scriptures give us evidence enough, then, that Christ is God. But the Scriptures are far from giving us all the evidence we have. There is, for example, the revolution which Christ has wrought in the world, if, indeed, it were asked what the most convincing proof of the deity of Christ is, perhaps the best answer would be, just Christianity. The new life He has brought into the world; the new creation which He has produced by His life and work in the world; here are at least His most palpable credentials.

Take it objectively. Read such a book as Harnack's "The Expansion of Christianity," or such an one as Von Dobschfitz's "Christian Life in the Primitive Church"—neither of which allows the deity of Christ—and then ask, Could these things have been wrought by power less than divine? And then remember that these things were not only wrought in that heathen world two thousand years ago, but have been wrought over again every generation since; for Christianity has re-conquered the world to itself each generation. Think of how the Christian proclamation spread, eating its way over the world like fire in the grass of a prairie. Think how, as it spread, it transformed lives. The thing, whether in its objective or in its subjective aspect, were incredible, had it not actually occurred. "Should a voyager," says Charles Darwin, "chance to be on the point of shipwreck on some unknown coast, he will most devoutly pray that the lesson of the missionary may have reached thus far. The lesson of the missionary is the enchanter's wand." Could this transforming influence, undiminished after two millenniums, have proceeded from a mere man? It is historically impossible that the great movement which we call Christianity, which remains unspent after all these years, could have originated in a merely human impulse; or could represent today the working of a merely human force.

THE PROOF WITHIN

Or take it subjectively. Every Christian has within himself the proof of the transforming power of Christ, and can repeat the blind man's syllogism: Why herein is the marvel that ye know not whence He is, and yet He opened my eyes. "Spirits are not touched to fine issues who are not finely touched." "Shall we trust," demands an eloquent reasoner, "the touch of our fingers, the sight of our eyes, the hearing of our ears, and not trust our deepest consciousness of our higher nature—the answer of conscience, the flower of spiritual gladness, the glow of spiritual love? To deny that spiritual experience is as real as physical experience is to slander the noblest faculties of our nature. It is to say that one half of our nature tells the truth, and the other half utters lies. The proposition that facts in the spiritual region are less real than facts in the physical realm contradicts all philosophy." The transformed hearts of Christians, registering themselves "in gentle tempers, in noble motives, in lives visibly lived under the empire of great aspirations"—these are the ever-present proofs of the divinity of the Person from whom their inspiration is drawn.

The supreme proof to every Christian of the deity of his Lord is then his own inner experience of the transforming power of his Lord upon the heart and life. Not more surely does he who feels the present warmth of the sun know that the sun exists, than he who has experienced the re-creative power of the Lord know Him to be his Lord and his God. Here is, perhaps we may say the proper, certainly we must say the most convincing, proof to every Christian of the deity of Christ; a proof which he cannot escape, and to which, whether he is capable of analyzing it or drawing it out in logical statement or not, he cannot fail to yield his sincere and unassailable conviction. Whatever else he may or may not be assured of, he knows that his Redeemer lives. Because He lives, we shall live also—that was the Lord's own assurance. Because we live, He lives also—that is the ineradicable conviction of every Christian heart.

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

Does the Bible Indirectly Teach That Jesus Is God?
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus Christ was fully human. However, Scripture gives evidence both directly and indirectly that Jesus Christ was more than a mere man. From the description of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament, we find that He is the eternal God. We have the following indirect evidences that Jesus is the God of the Bible.

For one thing, we find that Jesus possesses a number of attributes or characteristics that belong to deity. Indeed, Scripture says that Jesus has existed from all eternity. Only God is eternal in nature.

Scripture teaches that Jesus is also a member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, we find that He is put on an equal level with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. This would never happen unless Jesus was God Himself.

Jesus Christ is also equal to God in certain names. There are names which belong to God alone such as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and Good Shepherd which are also given to Jesus. This is another factor in demonstrating that they are equal in nature.

We also find that while on earth Jesus had a unique relationship with God the Father. He could address Him as “My Father” in a unique way from other people. Jesus never equated His relationship with the Father with that of others.

The Bible also emphasizes Jesus had a heavenly origin. In fact, His origin is contrasted with human beings whose origin is from the earth.

One clear mark of deity is that Jesus Christ allowed Himself to be worshiped. Worship is something which is due to God alone. The fact the Father commanded the angels to worship Jesus as well as the fact that He received it goes to show that Jesus is God Himself.

There is also the fact that Jesus was addressed in prayer. Only God is addressed in prayer. We do not pray to angels or to other humans.

Of all the indirect references that show that Jesus is God one of the clearest is His claim to forgive sins. In the Old Testament, the God of the Bible makes it clear that He alone has the right to forgive sin. The New Testament records that Jesus claimed the same right. Jesus would not make this claim unless He had the right to do so.

Jesus also claimed to be the judge of the world. Other New Testament writers echoed His claim. Since Scripture is clear that the judgment of humanity belongs to God alone, the logical inference is that Jesus is the God of Scripture.

The Bible also says that Jesus is the Creator of the entire universe. Furthermore, He sustains the universe by His spoken word. Jesus also presently rules the universe. Thus, the creation and the running of the universe belong to Him.

We also find that Jesus will raise the dead at His coming. Again, He claimed this right for Himself. Since only God can raise the dead, Jesus must Himself be God.

Jesus gives spiritual life as well as eternal life to believers. This is something which only God can grant. No human or angel can impart life.

The Apostle Paul wrote that everyone will one day confess Jesus Christ as LORD. This means they will acknowledge Him as Yahweh, or Jehovah.

The New Testament also says that Jesus has equal glory with God the Father. Since God will not share His glory the conclusion is that Jesus is God Himself.

Thus, Jesus performs work that only God can perform. These abilities cannot be delegated because they are characteristics of God alone.

We conclude that the Bible indirectly teaches in a number of different ways that Jesus Christ is Almighty God—the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/what-everyone-needs-to-know-about-jesus/06-does-the-bible-indirectly-teach-that-jesus-is-god.cfm

Rose42

Self promotion is one thing, someone else linking to it is another.

It isn't offensive, its sad. And you know what they say about those in glass houses....

Rose42

There's also a forum on CARM that deals with the subject in detail.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Self promotion my ass...

You shut down a perfectly decent and civil thread out of bitterness...

Rose42

Yes it is self promotion. And you know it.

No bitterness - that is your imagination. I often read other forums for more information and rebuttal.

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

And this is your grownup response? Rose has the right to make the call and she did! This forum should never be used as a promoting tool for anyone! In my opinion! Troy made a point to make sure everyone knew that it was his website and he was the author. There was nothing personal about her decision! She made it clear from the start that it was inappropriate!


Why didn’t he just present the thread as an anonymous poster if he was just interested in having a discussion? It’s clear that he was more interested in promoting his site than just wanting a discussion! It is a great way to advertise, is it not? 🤨

I have presented material from two different sites in rebuttal.......was this not your intent or did you present the thread out of spite? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Rose42

I have not seen others allow this and I do not see him promoting his website anywhere else though I could have missed it. Thats why it was done. No more, no less.

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

Pennylynn would have never given you this responsibility if she wasn’t confident in your integrity and your ability to be fair and just to everyone in your decisions!

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

He replied to your post.. Took the time to go through it and address the various issues...

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Actually, Pennylynn wanted to make both Doc and Rose moderators because y'all couldn't play well together and she was tired of the nonsense...

She'd be disgusted that someone was trying to stiffle a topic just because they disagree with it...

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

His first posts were anonymous... Until he was asked if he was the author of the site...

Do you honestly believe that these lies are fine in the eyes of God??? Just curious....