proud republican Loc: RED CALIFORNIA

Thank you!!! Couldn't have said better myself!!!

permafrost Loc: Minnesota

Well son, now you did it...

Stopped long enough to sign off on my return and so much has been posted, I can not help but make a token response..

I should say thanks for trying to clear up a point in my post.. but I can n ot help but disagree with a few of your statements..

One.... if unions did not build the middle class, what do you presume did so?

the high pay corporations gave to labor out of the goodness in their hearts? Not hardly..

Two.... you say we always had a middle class.. not in the real world..
In the olden days anything like a middle class was made up of Merchants, sk**led craftsmen and perhaps
teachers to the wealthy..

Three... Public vs private sector unions.. while it is true Reagan pretty near wiped out private sector unions, and
rant over public unions does have a bit of merit. this can not be a full bodied discussion of the topic.
only a couple opinions being exchanged.. You mention police unions but do not point out the problems
involved. They should be confined to work related problems and promotions..

Last..... What are you trying to say about coal mining unions?

In closing, my line or two was not at all intended to address the many points of dispute over unionism.. not even close.. that would take volumes..

My only remark was intended to find a reason for labor to refuse unionism.. without the idea of unions they would never be more then low paid servants to the owners of any business you can name..

have a nice evening, come back tomorrow..

PS,,, you sure hold a lot of the nations high quality life style as the sole fault of Democrats..
that may well make Dems a better group then you ever imagined..

son of witless

Thank you for answering. Not many of your friends have the courage to do that much anymore. I am not that scary. You made a lot of points, which I do not at present have the time to address. I would like to make a small comment on this statement. " if unions did not build the middle class, what do you presume did so?

the high pay corporations gave to labor out of the goodness in their hearts? Not hardly.. "

When you purchase something do you just pay the highest price out there or do you weigh the cost along with other factors such as quality ? If you hire a contractor to work in your house, if other factors are equal, do you or don't you go with the cheapest price ? Yes ?

Why would any corporation, answerable to their stockholders pay more for labor than the market dictated ?

Those corporations created the wealth. After that it was how the wealth was distributed. The corporations were the villains in this sense back in the early days. They scoured Europe, mostly Eastern and Southern Europe to import workers to compete with the workers who were already here and drove wages down. The fictional book called the Jungle had some facts that showed how that was done.

As now if massive immigration had not been allowed in the late 1800s-early 1900s the industrial unions would not have been needed. Supply and demand would have taken care of wages. Like now massive immigration drove down wages for workers.

A last point. This statement puzzles me. " while it is true Reagan pretty near wiped out private sector unions, ".

I don't remember things that way. Please explain or provide evidence for that happening.

permafrost Loc: Minnesota

Good Monday morning Son,

Have to say, I have never been told this Immigration was the reason story.. I will give a little look at before trying to comment.. on first glance I can not see how that would have happened but will look for arguments..


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

as for reagan and air controllers union...

Lots of articles on this event..

I chose this one not for it inclusions but for the heck of it..

It is too long so only a part of it is included.

You may find it a bit leaning toward parts of society you do not agree with.. but I found it somewhat amusing..
Much more can be found on reagan, his destruction of PATCO and the lasting effects on America..


https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2006/08/patc-a03.html
Barry Grey
3 August 2006

On this day 25 years ago, August 3, 1981, 13,000 members of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) went on strike in a contract dispute with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to demand shorter hours, increased staffing and improved wages. The same day, President Ronald Reagan went on national television, speaking from the White House Rose Garden, to denounce the strikers and issue an ultimatum: either they returned to work within 48 hours or they would be summarily fired and permanently banned from federal employment.

Two days later, on the basis of an obscure and previously unenforced 1955 law banning strikes by government unions, Reagan fired all 11,359 controllers who had defied his back-to-work order. Thus began a massive government union-busting operation that ended with the permanent dismissal and blacklisting of the workers, the seizure of PATCO’s finances, and the decertification of the union.

It included the spectacle of PATCO leaders being led to jail in shackles and FBI agents and federal marshals converging on the picket lines. Four PATCO members were jailed by the federal government in the spring and summer of 1983 for participating in the strike. Ron May, Gary Greene and Lee Grant were leaders of PATCO in the Dallas-Ft. Worth region. Along with Dick Hoover in Houston, they were singled out by the Reagan administration for their militant role in the strike, convicted on felony charges of striking against the government, imprisoned, fined and permanently stripped of their civil rights.

The government vendetta against PATCO has never ended. To this day, the ban on the rehiring of PATCO strikers, imposed by Reagan and a Democratic-controlled Congress, remains essentially intact. President Clinton officially lifted the ban in 1993, but this was a token gesture. To date, only 846 PATCO controllers, out of more than 11,000 fired by Reagan, have been allowed to return to their profession.

Then and now, the cold-blooded persecution of the PATCO workers has exposed the reality of class warfare and the role of the capitalist state as the repressive arm of the ruling elite in so-called democratic America. In the aftermath of two world wars, American imperialism never exhibited such vengeful spite toward its imperialist rivals as it has toward the PATCO strikers, and the American working class as a whole.

The smashing of PATCO marked a turning point in class relations both in the US and internationally. It signaled the definitive end of the policies of liberal reformism and relative class compromise that had predominated in the post-World War II period and the onset of a ruthless capitalist offensive against the working class that continues to this day.

It also foreshadowed the collapse of the American trade unions and all of the old, bureaucratized labor organizations and parties internationally, which were based on nationalism and class compromise. Reagan’s assault on the PATCO strikers—an attack without precedent in modern US history—provoked massive opposition among working people both in the US and around the world. One month after Reagan fired the PATCO strikers, more than 500,000 workers converged on Washington, DC, in a “Solidarity Day” demonstration—the largest protest ever in the US—to express their outrage and opposition to the Reagan administration.

But the official unions—the AFL-CIO, the United Auto Workers, the Teamsters, etc.—systematically worked to isolate the PATCO strikers and ensure their defeat. The response of the AFL-CIO to Reagan’s ultimatum to the PATCO strikers was to order union pilots, machinists and flight attendants to cross the picket lines and report to work.

For the crisis-ridden American ruling elite, the successful prosecution of this attack on the working class was unthinkable without the firmest assurance of support and collaboration from the union officialdom. This the labor bureaucrats readily granted.

This conspiracy of the ruling class and the labor leadership against the working class was forged well in advance of the PATCO strike. Already, in the New York City crisis of 1975, the Chrysler bailout under the Democratic Carter administration in 1979-1980, and the defeat of the New York City t***sit workers’ strike against a Democratic city administration in 1980, the trade union bureaucracy had agreed that the working class would have to pay for the crisis of American capitalism.

Radiance3

=================
Teachers union got to influence CDC so that they don't have to report to work while receiving full time salaries and benefits. What a luxurious jobs they have.

The teachers' union as well as all government employees union provide tens of millions of dollars to the democrat campaign fund every year. That is why every year, they demand salary increase. When their salary increases, the union dues also increase.
Therefore more money is donated to the democrat e******n campaign fund. Union and the democrat party is in a quid-pro-quo. The victims are the taxpayers. They are commanded by democrat, country, city of state government to raise taxes for many reasons. E.g. Build more buildings for the 26 thousand new i*****l a***n kids.

In addition to the federal government funds, property owners pay 65% for public schools every year, the rest go to the city, county, and state operating funds added to their other fund collection.

Our public education is at the bottom percentile of world countries in Math, Science, and Reading. The fact that we spend 5 times more for education than those who rank at the top or higher than the US.

U.S. Students Show No Improvement in Math, Reading, Science on International Exam.

https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-12-03/us-students-show-no-improvement-in-math-reading-science-on-international-exam

Now Biden is going to baby sit them charged to the taxpayers.

son of witless

I am sorry, but you are confusing the living Heck out of me. Your statements in my humble opinion have one humongous contradiction, and until we clear this up, I just cannot continue.

When I said that I did not remember it the way you said I was referring to your statement " while it is true Reagan pretty near wiped out private sector unions,"

There is the conflict. You went into the whole thing about PATCO, assuming I did not remember. No, I remember the whole Reagan PATCO event. Here is my problem. In my opinion PATCO was not a private sector union. For you to say that and then go into this " It also foreshadowed the collapse of the American trade unions and all of the old, bureaucratized labor organizations " .

You cannot link the collapse of American trade unions to the Reagan-PATCO battle, except that you did. That is incorrect.

permafrost Loc: Minnesota

well you are correct son.. it is my fault , not limiting to the same criteria..

I was not thinking only of private or public sector unions..

Patco is something of a marker for the effective end of unions in America. in the 70s a good 30 % or so of american labor was unionized.. it declined from that point on.. today only about 7.5% or less of labor is unionized and may still be down trending..

If we talk only of public sector.. that could raise issues I have not addressed.. but in general terms, yes I do think unions should be OK in the public sector.. differing slants on the reasons, but still a yes..

elledee

These aholes who wanted raises when they weren't going to work and now its common knowledge that children don't get the China v***s or spread it and the teachers unions rake in mountains of tax dollars that never end up in a classroom or are spent on students...
just another front for another demonrat slush fund

son of witless

I wish to put out that I do not believe Ronald Reagan had anything to do with the decline of private sector unions. Most of those unions were concentrated in heavy industry, and with the decline of that, unions in the private sector are dinosaurs.

I do not understand your support for public sector unions. I keep saying it. When it comes to them, we are all management.