One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Jesus - Fully God and fully man?
Apr 5, 2021 17:18:18   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
It is asserted in 'orthodox' Christianity that Jesus is fully God and fully man, but is this even possible?

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2021/03/13/why-i-believe-jesus-of-nazareth-is-a-simple-human-person/

Apr 5, 2021 23:42:24   #
Sonny Magoo Loc: If you ain't Dutch you ain't much.
 
Yep. Fully God.
Yet a man.
You have to be outside of time to get this one. Or just read and comprehend the scriptures for yourself.
It's there.

Apr 6, 2021 07:31:43   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Sonny Magoo wrote:
Yep. Fully God.
Yet a man.
You have to be outside of time to get this one. Or just read and comprehend the scriptures for yourself.
It's there.


Could you please give just one passage that states that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

 
 
Apr 6, 2021 10:10:15   #
EmilyD
 
troysal wrote:
Could you please give just one passage that states that Jesus is fully God and fully man.


I will.

Jesus is incarnate, meaning he is a deity in human flesh form. He has two natures...first he has always been divine - he is God, who is eternal. And second, he added the second human nature consisting of a body and soul when he was born of the virgin, Mary... therefore He is one person (the Son) who subsists with two natures: Fully God and fully man.

Troy Salinger (is that you, troysal? or are you just using his name as your username?), the author of the article that you posted above, believes that Jesus was man only. That is his own belief. I believe that Jesus is incarnate - both. I do so because I believe the words written in the Bible by authors who were there or who wrote testimonies of people who were there and followed Jesus when He was on earth are more of a reflection of what they saw first-hand than Troy Salinger's theories of today. Here are some passages from the Bible about this.

Philippians 2:6-8 - "(6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (7) but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,[a] being born in the likeness of men. (8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

John 1:14 - "The Word (Christ) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Colossians 1:15 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

Colossians 2:9 - "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily"

Hebrews 1:3 - "He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high"

Apr 6, 2021 17:47:37   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
EmilyD,

Thanks for taking the time to respond with at least a modicum of supposed scriptural evidence. I am well aware of the passages you cited for I myself would have cited these same passages as so-called proof texts for the deity of Jesus in prior years. But none of these passages actually say teach what Christians claim they teach, but rather the idea of Jesus' deity is being read into these passages. I have offered alternative interpretations of these passages in various articles on my blog (yes I am the author of the blog). I wrote a series of articles, 8 in all, refuting a document put out by the Master's University's Bible faculty, in which they give every typical proof text for the trinity and deity of Jesus. I would encourage you to read these articles; things are not what they always appear to be. Did you read the article from my original post?

Apr 6, 2021 18:33:30   #
Rose42
 
He got no traction in another section so he's trying it here. Lol

And his site really refutes nothing unless you are looking for confirmation bias.

Apr 6, 2021 18:56:15   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Rose42 wrote:
He got no traction in another section so he's trying it here. Lol

And his site really refutes nothing unless you are looking for confirmation bias.


And just how many articles did you read on my blog?

 
 
Apr 6, 2021 19:58:59   #
EmilyD
 
troysal wrote:
EmilyD,
Thanks for taking the time to respond with at least a modicum of supposed scriptural evidence. I am well aware of the passages you cited for I myself would have cited these same passages as so-called proof texts for the deity of Jesus in prior years. But none of these passages actually say teach what Christians claim they teach, but rather the idea of Jesus' deity is being read into these passages. I have offered alternative interpretations of these passages in various articles on my blog (yes I am the author of the blog). I wrote a series of articles, 8 in all, refuting a document put out by the Master's University's Bible faculty, in which they give every typical proof text for the trinity and deity of Jesus. I would encourage you to read these articles; things are not what they always appear to be. Did you read the article from my original post?
EmilyD, br Thanks for taking the time to respond w... (show quote)

Yes, I read the article. It is thought-provoking and well written with logical conclusions. However, my belief that Jesus was incarnate is a combination of reading the words of Paul and my own faith that what he wrote is the truth of what happened when he knew Jesus on earth. I believe that Paul was writing from more than just an opinion or speculation when he wrote his recordings of the events that he personally experienced. And, as I said in my previous post, since Paul was here when Jesus was, and I was not, I tend to believe his words above another person's words and interpretations. For instance, when you call the passages in the "The Full Humanity Of Jesus" section of your article (from Romans 5:15-19, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 and 1 Timothy 2:5) "wordplay" of a doctrine that has been generally accepted since the actual resurrection ("Now these statements seem clear enough, but the philosophical wordplay of orthodoxy obscures the plain meaning of the text"), I must disagree that it is "wordplay". If the text in those passages are not clear in meaning enough, then one can find in multiple other places, and written by many others than Paul, of course, when they knew Jesus here on earth, and also wrote that the resurrection was Jesus as God, who became a man through a virgin birth (a miracle) who died as a savior and then rose from the dead and returned to eternal life. Jesus was showing us what will happen to those of us who are faithful when we die. That is the basis of my faith (and I believe most Christians').

Yes, things may not always seem what they appear to be, but that's where faith comes in. There are so many interpretations of the Bible and its passages, it can boggle the mind. I don't often agree completely with "teachers" of the Bible...But what I do honestly believe to be the truth is that what is written in the Bible...how you, personally, read it and interpret it, and how your heart receives it - what really inspires your faith - is what really matters to each one of us. And I also believe it is what the authors' intentions were when they wrote it. (The words in red also help me with my own interpretation!) If reading the Bible means to you that Jesus was not God but only man, then who am I to say that is not your truth! I see it differently, which is fine. I believe the bottom line is both of us are believers in Jesus as our salvation, and we will be finding eternal life ourselves some day!

I'm curious why you skipped over Romans 5:16, and 5:18 in the "The Full Humanity Of Jesus" section of your article...they seem very pertinent to this issue...

From Romans 5:15-19, International Standard Version (I like the way this translation reads):

15 But God’s free gift is not like Adam’s offense. For if many people died as the result of one man’s offense, how much more have God’s grace and the free gift given through the kindness of one man, Jesus the Messiah, been showered on many people! 16 Nor can the free gift be compared to what came through the man who sinned. For the sentence that followed one man’s offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift brought justification, even after many offenses. 17 For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man’s offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus the Messiah!**

18 Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone. 19 For just as through one man’s disobedience many people were made sinners, so also through one man’s obedience many people will be made righteous.

**"Jesus the Messiah" is another way of referring to Him as both God and man: Jesus(man) the Messiah (savior).

Apr 6, 2021 20:02:21   #
Rose42
 
troysal wrote:
And just how many articles did you read on my blog?


More than just a few. I have seen the arguments before. I believe you are sincere though mistaken in your conclusions.

Apr 7, 2021 07:36:10   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
EmilyD,

Thank you for your well expressed thoughts. Just a couple of points. I was not referring to the biblical passages themselves as 'wordplay' but to the philosophical jargon used by the so-called church fathers, all of whom were gentiles and all were schooled in Greek education of the day, to formulate a doctrine that cannot be derived from a correct understanding of scripture within it's own cultural setting.

I appreciate you saying that you consider me a believer in the Lord Jesus and one who will inherit eternal life. Most 'Christians' condemn me to hell, even though I believe Jesus is the the Messiah, believe that God raised him from the dead and confess him as my Lord.

I must respectfully disagree with you on what the title Messiah means. In scripture it has no connotation of deity attached to it. The word is used many times in the OT and ALWAYS with reference to human beings, never to God. Please study it and you will see what I am saying is true. This is one of those misunderstandings that Christians have because of tradition. In truth 'Messiah' clearly puts Jesus in the human category.

Apr 7, 2021 10:19:14   #
EmilyD
 
troysal wrote:
EmilyD,

Thank you for your well expressed thoughts. Just a couple of points. I was not referring to the biblical passages themselves as 'wordplay' but to the philosophical jargon used by the so-called church fathers, all of whom were gentiles and all were schooled in Greek education of the day, to formulate a doctrine that cannot be derived from a correct understanding of scripture within it's own cultural setting.

I appreciate you saying that you consider me a believer in the Lord Jesus and one who will inherit eternal life. Most 'Christians' condemn me to hell, even though I believe Jesus is the the Messiah, believe that God raised him from the dead and confess him as my Lord.

I must respectfully disagree with you on what the title Messiah means. In scripture it has no connotation of deity attached to it. The word is used many times in the OT and ALWAYS with reference to human beings, never to God. Please study it and you will see what I am saying is true. This is one of those misunderstandings that Christians have because of tradition. In truth 'Messiah' clearly puts Jesus in the human category.
EmilyD, br br Thank you for your well expressed t... (show quote)


Jesus called himself Messiah in John 4:7-26

When Jesus told the Samaritan woman who came to the well to draw water and asked her for a drink, she chastised Him because he was a Jew. He replied "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, 'Please give me a drink,' you would have been the one to ask him, and he would have given you living water..." She continued to question Him and after a while in conversation with Him, she said "...I know that the Anointed One is coming, who is being called 'the Messiah'. When that person comes, he will explain everything." Jesus' answer to her was "I AM he...the one who is speaking to you."

Jesus said that as a man, that's true, but we know He is God the Son (one-third of the Holy Trinity). So my interpretation of what he said (in John 4) is that when He said He was the Messiah, He meant He was the Savior...the Anointed One...the Redeemer...the Rescuer.

And, yes, I believe that if one believes that Jesus is the way to salvation of our souls, as you do, even though you do not believe he is incarnate, then you are still a faithful Christian, and therefore will be saved.

If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2021 IDF International Technologies, Inc.