BigOlBear

I am a conservative. I believe in the genius of our forefathers and the beauty of the founding documents. I will admit that I have a hard time grasping the rationale of my liberal brethren. For me, their beliefs are unreasonable and irrational. While I enjoy sharing ideas with like-minded people, I would love it if I could have a civil discussion with a liberal who might be able to help me understand how and why s/he thinks the way s/he does. We don't have to agree but I believe that understanding one another's point of view would be useful.

Not sure if this will work or whether the thread will be co-opted by trolls but I think it's worth a try. I'm issuing a challenge to intelligent liberals out there to engage in a civil dialogue with me and other conservatives on any topic of your choosing. The point would be understanding ... help conservatives understand your perspective and see if you can understand ours.

A couple of ground rules (with no way to enforce them.)

1. No name-calling or insults. Let's not get personal. If anyone breaks this rule I encourage others not to respond in kind but to ignore it.

2. No links. nobody wants to spend all day looking up your references, we just want you to articulate your position.

A couple of suggested topics although there are many ...

1. Almost all conservatives oppose the ACA while what support ACA does enjoy is from liberals. Can you help us understand why you think this will accomplish the things Obama promised?

2. Second Amendment. This is typically but not always a left/right issue. Personally, I want the government to leave the Second Amendment alone. What do you think and why?

3. If you v**ed for Obama both times, can you tell us what you saw in his resume that we missed?

4. Do you believe Social Security and Medicare are going broke? If so, what are the solutions?

5. How would you suggest we resolve the immigration crisis?

6. Do you think the country is on the right track or the wrong track and why?

Feel free to bring up any political issue that matters to you as long as it is a topic about which you have some knowledge.

bahmer

Good luck I will be watching.

Steve700

Good luck on that one ! Don't you think their complete lack of understanding of conservative principles, acceptance of Marxist propaganda and the Marxist humanist religion makes "intelligent liberal" an oxymoron. (At least politically) liberals are after all self-deluded or evil (wanting to be God rather than recognize God) or in most cases a combination of both. Much of their problem comes from their rejection and inability to even listen to (much less accept) any conservative ideas. After all, their Marxist propaganda tells them nothing but untrue bull s**t about conservatives - namely that they are hard harted, selfish, stingy, cheep, angry, h**eful, h**e mongers, war mongers, r****ts, biggots, r****ts, & antiquated. When you believe the other side to be all that, why would you want to listen to them or think that they have anything of value to impart to you; especially when you consider yourself to be enlightened, smarter, better, finer, more empathetic. These people have moved into opposite land, have an aversion to t***h and an immunity to education. I commend your efforts but good luck. These people feel, they don't reason. All they know is a bunch of bad things America has done in its history, Marxist talking points and to call you a r****t.

skott Loc: Bama

I would love to play at this discussion, but I keep getting name called. Then I answer questions, but the conservatives don't.

First off, let me tell you a little about myself. I am from the deep south, Alabama, I am a married white male, a Christian, I have a wife and kids, a job, I am a veteran of the U.S. Army, served from 1983 to 1991, and I am college educated.
I consider myself to be liberal. That is when compared to today's conservatives. I love that people think that their are Liberals and or Conservatives. that's like saying that there is short and tall. They are just terms of comparison.

I choose number "the second amendment." from the choices that you proposed. I think we completely do not take it as meant by the founding fathers. I also think that our supreme court with all of their law experience, got it wrong. They wrote that it means that anyone can carry a gun. I think it is meant to be so much more and also, so much less. If you like our founding fathers and think they were fairly smart then maybe you will agree with me, but I doubt it.
According to our founding fathers: "A well regulated m*****a being necessary to the security of a free State, the rights of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." I wonder why they put that there? That part that is about a well regulated m*****a. They must have been really dumb to put it there when they really meant, "You have the right to carry a gun." Or maybe there was a reason. Maybe they were actually talking about having "arms" in order to fight if our country were taken over by a dictator. Of course, they did not mean for s***es to have guns, remember they were not people, they were property.
I do understand the conservative belief on this. It is that if I have my gun, then I can protect my self and property from thieves and the government" (tell me if I am wrong)
My point is not that the guns should be taken from everyone, but there should be some common sense laws regarding who can have them. Felons should not. Children should not. Mentally ill should not.
I do not think that we can stop our government with just small arms, either if we need to. But I am not allowed to have a Stinger missile, or a nuclear weapon. Those are arms. Our government regulates them, and no one fights to get me my personal bomb to protect myself with.
Can you see my two points? We need real gun control and real opportunity to fight our government.
Enjoy.

BigOlBear

Damn, Steve, I just assumed it would be a liberal who would start out making things personal.

BigOlBear

You make good points and I agree with much of what you say. You said, "I do understand the conservative belief on this. It is that if I have my gun, then I can protect my self and property from thieves and the government" (tell me if I am wrong) " and I agree with that statement. You go on to say, "My point is not that the guns should be taken from everyone, but there should be some common sense laws regarding who can have them. Felons should not. Children should not. Mentally ill should not." ...and I agree with that as well. Where we may differ is when the anti-gun people try to solve the problems we have by limiting the number of bullets you can have in your clip or by establishing "gun-free zones." For me, disarming the good guys or giving felons and crazies notification of safe places to do their evil is counter-productive.

I recognize that we don't all agree on the interpretation of the wording of the Second Amendment but, when viewed in context with the other writings by Jefferson and others of the time, the intent seems clear. In addition, history has shown what happens to a people when a despot successfully disarms a population.

You done good ... only got mildly snarky in one spot. :lol:

Kevyn

Here go's as you can see your stated desire for polite dialog was ignored by Steve 700 but did you expect anything else?


1. Almost all conservatives oppose the ACA while what support ACA does enjoy is from liberals. Can you help us understand why you think this will accomplish the things Obama promised?

2. Second Amendment. This is typically but not always a left/right issue. Personally, I want the government to leave the Second Amendment alone. What do you think and why?

3. If you v**ed for Obama both times, can you tell us what you saw in his resume that we missed?

4. Do you believe Social Security and Medicare are going broke? If so, what are the solutions?

5. How would you suggest we resolve the immigration crisis?

6. Do you think the country is on the right track or the wrong track and why?

The ACA is flawed from the beginning, too many concessions were made to conservatives who then abandoned it. Two changes could be made to greatly improve the act but republicans will block both, first a single payer option essentially expansion of Medicare and secondly cost controls on drugs with the savings put entirely into drug research at university's to develop new medicine to combat disease. Drug company's are in the business of making money through maintainance drugs rather than curing disease. In the case of medicine the free market fails us.  

The right to bear arms doesn't preclude registration of firearms in a manner similar to registering cars or keeping them from criminals or mentally ill people. Nor should it allow people to own things like hand held anti aircraft missiles. The slippery slope argument against any regulation is nonsense like anything else laws swing both ways. 

President Obama was hardly my first choice but he was in both cases a lesser of two evils. The men running against him would have very likely thrown our nation into a continuing spiral of war and depression.

Social security can be fixed by removing the cap on payroll tax/FICA. Medicare can be fixed by additional funding and regulation of providers and drug company's to address price gouging. Also policy's encouraging healthy living and regulation of the food industry to keep them from poisoning the public would cut health care costs significantly. 

Immigration can be addressed by prosecuting business utilizing undocumented workers under RICO jailing criminal employers and confiscating property involved in an ongoing criminal enterprise.

The country is not going in the right direction, our middle class has collapsed hand and hand with diminished membership in organized labor, repealing Taft Hartley and passing federal law eliminating all so called right to work laws would go a long way to helping our middle class recover. The other fix to our political system would be massive public funding of campaigns and requiring media to provide balanced coverage of campaigns as part of their FCC licensing requirements. This would diminish the effect of corporate money on e******ns. 

BigOlBear

Well. all right then. I hear you. I don't think I learned anything new though since we're all pretty familiar with those liberal positions but, thanks for your contribution. Perhaps you might think about just taking one subject that matters most to you and flesh it out a bit. By the way, I almost didn't bother reading your post based on your first sentence.

skott Loc: Bama

I kind of agree with his first statement. He is one of the main reasons that there is no real discussion on OPP.

AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State

Below are thoughts on the right to bear arms brought to you by the founding fathers.

"I ask sir, what is the m*****a? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
- George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison

"A m*****a, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms."
- Richard Henry Lee

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
- John Adams

"A free people ought to be armed."
- George Washington

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States



Are you aware it is currently illegal for felons and mentally ill, who have been so determined through appropriate medical and judicial processes are prohibited from owning a gun?! There are currently three hundred gun laws in effect throughout the US. Would it not be a better idea to enforce the current gun laws as opposed to piling more on? As another point, gun crime has dropped significantly, per the FBI and DOJ.



Hmm...for someone who was going to be polite, a lot of snark there. Of course, the majority of entrenched Liberal mindset always uses the stinger missile and personal bomb meme.



"Shall not be infringed"



Pardon me for doubting you find little to argue or fight our government over.

skott Loc: Bama

No, it is not illegal for mentally ill to buy or own guns. It is for felons, except at gun shows and amongst private sellers, felons can freely buy guns. (so those two are both false.)
You also need not quote part of the 2nd amendment to me and leave out the rest.

I do like that you added quotes from some of the founding fathers. Not all of them agreed. Many actually wanted a m*****a. You shouldn't pick and chose the quotes, it is too close to a lie.

Sorry about being snarky.

skott Loc: Bama

Here is a quote for you on the gun debate:
In an 1814 letter to Thomas Cooper, Jefferson wrote of standing armies: “The Greeks and Romans had no standing armies, yet they defended themselves. The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so.”
The founding fathers actually discuss a M*****a in the constitution.
Read the whole thing, not just part of the 2nd Amendment. It discusses the need to arm an train the M*****a.

AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State

Which is exactly what they should have done for those with pre-existing conditions and those who were uninsured and wanted health insurance, as opposed to writing 2500 pages of gobblydeegook.



The idea of additional research is admirable until you read the ACA and find the taxes on new pharmaceutical companies for such medicines and the new taxes on new medical devices. Actually, you are wrong about pharmaceutical companies. RANT ON Pharmaceutical companies are in the business of expanding the number of medicines you need. One medicine creates a side effect requiring another medication, which creates a side effect requiring yet another medication until an individual is on four or five medications. It is a total and complete s**m.RANT OFF  



Hopefully when angels are ice skating in hades!!



It is already illegal for felons or mentally incompetent individuals, as determined through medical and judicial processes, to own a weapons. Perhaps if the DOJ would prosecute the cases, referred to them by BFATE, for such individuals attempting to purchase guns, you would see a reduction of possible possession by such ineligible individuals.



Is it possible a single thinking liberal will ever not use this excessively ridiculous statement?



Think third party.



I do not think the cap should be totally removed; however, it could most assuredly be raised.




We do not need, in my opinion, more funding. We need to substantially increase prosecution of those defrauding the system. The following number may well be incorrect; however, shortly ago, I read fraud in the amount of several million dollars had been found in one state alone. That is taxpayer money STOLEN. Any entity found committing fraud should have their license stripped.



There will be zero regulation of the food business. Agribusiness has some of the biggest lobbyist on K Street.



We could jail you probably. I do not mean that in a h**eful way. Individual citizens are equally guilty. No individual is allowed to do work on my property without a green card. I literally take the time to check.



If you think union bosses making triple dollar incomes are good for workers, keep paying those dues.

AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State

You need to check your facts. It may not be federal law; however, a majority of states do not allow mentally ill, with judicial conviction, to purchase guns. I am beyond bored with the continuing prevarication about the gun show meme. I will not even waste time on such.



The 1st Amendment allows me the right to quote as I wish.



A little late considering the snark and insults in this post; however, as my Sunday Devotional, posted yesterday on OPP, is about forgiveness, I will ignore such.

AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State

You lazy BigOlBear. :D :lol: I managed to answer and my wrist is in a brace.