PeterS

What I find so ironic is that CC's make such a big deal about being free yet they are the least free people in this entire country. 1) You continually fall in love with the first wannabe authoritarian dictator who crosses your path and then 2) you stumble across a god who claims to be the one and only god and unless you worship him he will roast you for eternity in hell.

So where does the freedom come in when your only choice is authoritarianism both ideologically and theologically? And I know, you are going to run on about free choice but when your only choice to worship god or burn in hell that isn't much of a choice is it. How sad...

RRRoger

God gave you free choice and you are a s***e to your sins.

PeterS

A s***e to my sins? And just how are you free to choose when your only choice is to worship him or burn in hell?

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

You simply do not get it, do you? I mean, the entire concept of an Infinite Creative Intelligence is beyond your comprehension.

No meta-narrative, no overarching story, informs your secular world view. From such a limited perspective, it is not possible for you to understand what Jesus meant when he said "the t***h will make you free".

Since you have limited your perceptions of the physical universe to just your physical senses and what the physical sciences tell you about it, please spare us another blast that belief in the supernatural is a logical fallacy.

Keep in mind the statement that science is the only path to t***h contradicts itself because the statement has no basis in science.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I agree... The heaven or hell conundrum is a doozy... But you have to admit that authoritarianism is comfortable and reassuring...

Sheep like their shepherds

Liberty Tree

The same choice you have to obey society's laws or go to prison or perhaps suffer the death penalty. Just as secular anarchy cannot be tolerated neither can spiritual anarchy.

Simple Sam Loc: USA

You do realize that the notion of a burning hell is a New Testament construct? the word “Sheol” in Hebrew is used in a variety of ways in the Old Testament. Sometimes it refers to the realm of the dead or the nether world. Sometimes it has a more of a general connotation: both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol, in terms of the grave.

Life is filled with choices; marry the wrong person, make a unwanted baby, murder, rape, or hang out with the wrong people. These are all individual choices with their own consequences. Even if you get out of these unhappy circumstances, the memories will haunt you for all your life.

Humans will never be truly free until they die and are completely forgotten even by the God you deny.

Wolf counselor Loc: Heart of Texas

PeterS

"Infinite Creative Intelligence?" What a crock! One thing that I can count on when it comes to you Blade is that no matter the question posed you will ignore it and go for a personal attack. Is your mind so addled by fallacies that you can't address a question without the use of one? As for your creative intelligence since there isn't a single religion nor a single word in the bible that isn't the product of man I don't think it too hard to comprehend where your creative intelligence comes from. But enough with that BS. Lets get back to the question at hand.

How can you CC's ever be free when you defer to authoritarianism no matter what form you run across it every chance you get? Look at Trump, you people have completely fallen all over him on accomplishments built mostly from lies that fall continually out of his mouth. I h**e to make the comparison but that was the same path taken by Hitler and his use of lies and propaganda on the German people. Of course, you people are plugged into Fox or AM radio which is nothing but a propaganda h**e fest 24/7. Whether it's authoritarianism preached by Trump or authoritarianism preached in your churches actual freedom is the last thing on a CC's plate.

As for the "t***h setting you free," there is nary a saying preached by Christ that you CC's have the stones to follow. You chose an unrepentant adulterer for president for no other reason than your desired political power. Did Christ mean for his words to be relative based on how much political power his so-called followers could achieve? What did Christ say, "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and unto God what is Gods?" To me, that sounds like Christ saw a clear separation between Church and State, enough so that he didn't want his followers to throw his teachings over solely so they can satisfy their thirst for political power. If nothing else I would think that Christ would want you to have at least the same moral foundation as a secular atheist who wouldn't v**e for Bill Clinton because he didn't think he was morally fit to be president. And by the way, I believe I was proven correct in that regard.

So Blade, if you can--and I know you can't--forgo the ad hominem attack and just try a rational argument for once in your life...

PeterS

Conservatives live in fear of totalitarianism and then embrace authoritarianism every chance they get. And I don't see heaven and hell as a conundrum...almost from birth we bribe our children to be good else Santa Claus will give them sticks and coal or the tooth fairy won't leave them any goodies, etc, etc, etc. We've done the same with our gods, only made the consequences more heavy-handed. If you don't believe in the consequences posed by Santa Claus or the tooth fairy then I wouldn't think you would worry too much about the consequences posed by our gods.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

You know Pete, you don't have much more time on this earth. So enjoy what little time you have left because it's not even going to come close to the ETERNITY you're going to spend in hell unless you change direction and repent.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Hey Pete, that's two choices. And sorry that's all you get. And you misrepresent the worship one.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

By what standard did God measure an adulterer and murderer and yet anointed him a king?

“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”
David Berlinski, The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions
―
Berlinski, an Agnostic, was a research assistant in molecular biology at Columbia University, and was a research fellow at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) in Austria and the Institut des Hautes Études Scientifiques (IHES) in France.

Berlinski has written works on systems analysis, the history of differential topology, analytic philosophy, and the philosophy of mathematics. Berlinski has authored books for the general public on mathematics and the history of mathematics. These include A Tour of the Calculus (1995) on calculus, The Advent of the Algorithm (2000) on algorithms, Newton's Gift (2000) on Isaac Newton, and Infinite Ascent: A Short History of Mathematics (2005)

___________________________________________________________________________________________

"The character of Jesus has not only been the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to its practice, and has exerted so deep an influence, that it may be truly said, that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and to soften mankind, than all the disquisitions of philosophers and than all the exhortations of moralists."
W.E.H. Lecky, History of European Morals from Augustus to Charlemagne

Atheism Is Irrational

HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?

Matthew Parris: As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God
By TIMES ONLINE

Before Christmas I returned, after 45 years, to the country that as a boy I knew as Nyasaland. Today it’s Malawi, and The Times Christmas Appeal includes a small British charity working there. Pump Aid helps rural communities to install a simple pump, letting people keep their village wells sealed and clean. I went to see this work.

It inspired me, renewing my f**gging faith in development charities. But travelling in Malawi refreshed another belief, too: one I’ve been trying to banish all my life, but an observation I’ve been unable to avoid since my African childhood. It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my world view, and has embarrassed my growing belief that there is no God.

Now a confirmed atheist, I’ve become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people’s hearts. It brings a spiritual t***sformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good.

I used to avoid this t***h by applauding – as you can – the practical work of mission churches in Africa. It’s a pity, I would say, that salvation is part of the package, but Christians black and white, working in Africa, do heal the sick, do teach people to read and write; and only the severest kind of secularist could see a mission hospital or school and say the world would be better without it. I would allow that if faith was needed to motivate missionaries to help, then, fine: but what counted was the help, not the faith.

But this doesn’t fit the facts. Faith does more than support the missionary; it is also t***sferred to his flock. This is the effect that matters so immensely, and which I cannot help observing.

First, then, the observation. We had friends who were missionaries, and as a child I stayed often with them; I also stayed, alone with my little brother, in a traditional rural African village. In the city we had working for us Africans who had converted and were strong believers. The Christians were always different. Far from having cowed or confined its converts, their faith appeared to have liberated and relaxed them. There was a liveliness, a curiosity, an engagement with the world – a directness in their dealings with others – that seemed to be missing in traditional African life. They stood tall.

At 24, travelling by land across the continent reinforced this impression. From Algiers to Niger, Nigeria, Cameroon and the Central African Republic, then right through the Congo to Rwanda, Tanzania and Kenya, four student friends and I drove our old Land Rover to Nairobi.

We slept under the stars, so it was important as we reached the more populated and lawless parts of the sub-Sahara that every day we find somewhere safe by nightfall. Often near a mission.

Whenever we entered a territory worked by missionaries, we had to acknowledge that something changed in the faces of the people we passed and spoke to: something in their eyes, the way they approached you direct, man-to-man, without looking down or away. They had not become more deferential towards strangers – in some ways less so – but more open.

This time in Malawi it was the same. I met no missionaries. You do not encounter missionaries in the lobbies of expensive hotels discussing development strategy documents, as you do with the big NGOs. But instead I noticed that a handful of the most impressive African members of the Pump Aid team (largely from Zimbabwe) were, privately, strong Christians.

€Privately,€ because the charity is entirely secular and I never heard any of its team so much as mention religion while working in the villages. But I picked up the Christian references in our conversations. One, I saw, was studying a devotional textbook in the car. One, on Sunday, went off to church at dawn for a two-hour service.

It would suit me to believe that their honesty, diligence and optimism in their work was unconnected with personal faith. Their work was secular, but surely affected by what they were. What they were was, in turn, influenced by a conception of man’s place in the Universe that Christianity had taught.

There’s long been a fashion among Western academic sociologists for placing tribal value systems within a ring fence, beyond critiques founded in our own culture: a theirs and therefore best for Anathema; authentic and of intrinsically equal worth to ours.

I don’t follow this. I observe that tribal belief is no more peaceable than ours; and that it suppresses individuality. People think collectively; first in terms of the community, extended family and tribe. This rural-traditional mindset feeds into the big mama and gangster politics of the African city: the exaggerated respect for a swaggering leader, and the (literal) inability to understand the whole idea of loyal opposition.

Anxiety – fear of evil spirits, of ancestors, of nature and the wild, of a tribal hierarchy, of quite everyday things – strikes deep into the whole structure of rural African thought. Every man has his place and, call it fear or respect, a great weight grinds down the individual spirit, stunting curiosity. People won’t take the initiative, won’t take things into their own hands or on their own shoulders.

How can I, as someone with a foot in both camps, explain? When the philosophical tourist moves from one world view to another he finds – at the very moment of passing into the new – that he loses the language to describe the landscape to the old. But let me try an example: the answer given by Sir Edmund Hillary to the question: Why climb the mountain? Because it’s there, he said.

To the rural African mind, this is an explanation of why one would not climb the mountain. It’s… well, there. Just there. Why interfere? Nothing to be done about it, or with it. Hillary’s further explanation – that nobody else had climbed it – would stand as a second reason for passivity.

Christianity, post-Reformation and post-Luther, with its teaching of a direct, personal, two-way link between the individual and God, unmediated by the collective, and unsubordinate to any other human being, smashes straight through the philosophical/spiritual framework I’ve just described. It offers something to hold on to to those anxious to cast off a crushing tribal group-think. That is why and how it liberates.

Those who want Africa to walk tall amid 21st-century global competition must not kid themselves that providing the material means or even the know-how that accompanies what we call development will make the change. A whole belief system must first be supplanted.

And I’m afraid it has to be supplanted by another. Removing Christian evangelism from the African equation may leave the continent at the mercy of a malign fusion of Nike, the witch doctor, the mobile phone and the machete.

Turner's Creed

His satirical poem on the modern mind.

“Can Man Live Without God?” - “No!”…But we try all the time….

We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin

We believe everything is OK as long as you don’t hurt anyone, to the best of your definition of hurt, and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.

We believe in the therapy of sin.

We believe that adultery is fun.

We believe that sodomy’s OK.

We believe that taboos are taboo.

We believe that everything’s getting better despite evidence to the contrary.

The evidence must be investigated. And you can prove anything with evidence.

We believe there’s something in horoscopes, UFO’s and bent spoons.

Jesus was a good man just like Buddha, Mohammed, and ourselves.

He was a good moral teacher though we think His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same- at least the one that we read was.

They all believe in love and goodness.

They only differ on matters of creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

We believe that after death comes the Nothing

Because when you ask the dead what happens, they say nothing.

If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then its compulsory heaven for all

excepting perhaps Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Kahn

We believe in Masters and Johnson

What’s selected is average.

What’s average is normal.

What’s normal is good.

We believe in total disarmament.

We believe there are direct links between warfare and bloodshed.

Americans should beat their guns into tractors . And the Russians would be sure to follow.

We believe that man is essentially good, It’s only his behavior that lets him down.

This is the fault of society.

Society is the fault of conditions.

Conditions are the fault of society.

We believe that each man must find the t***h that is right for him.

Reality will adapt accordingly.

The universe will readjust.

History will alter.

We believe that there is no absolute t***h

excepting the t***h

that there is no absolute t***h.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,

And the flowering of individual thought.

If chance be

the Father of all flesh,

disaster is his rainbow in the sky

and when you hear

State of Emergency!

Sniper K**ls Ten!

Troops on Rampage!

W****s go L**ting!

Bomb Blasts School!

It is but the sound of man

worshipping his maker.

John Meoff

Come on Blade_Runner; PeterS recognizes nothing more intelligent than himself.

Tug484

Zoom!
I bet he's bald!
Everything goes over the top of his head!