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A Church/State Issue
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Jul 24, 2014 13:07:52   #
Opal12
 
slatten49 wrote:
I ran across this in a local paper today. I wanted to share.

A Church/State Issue, by Henry Apperson

Once upon a time in America's colonial past, civil magistrates could punish poor souls for religious infractions, resulting in the infamous Salem Witch Trials. In addition, in some southern colonies, taxes were collected from all to support the Anglican Church's mission. Eventually, through persistent efforts of many, including the fiery Baptist evangelical John Leland, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, The First Amendment to the Constitution, in the Bill of Rights, contained the first constitutional guarantee of religious liberty in America.



It provided protection for believers and doubters, to practice their faith as their conscience dictated, without interference from government, at any level. In addition, this unique "Wall of Separation" provided a protection for the State from an overweening influence, or control, by any religious group or faction.

Thus, America's strength has come from two staunch pillars, Civilian Supremacy (the military has always been subservient to civil power) and Religious Freedom, which has led millions to flee despotism and religious intolerance to come to America.

Today, the controversy over religious instruction or mediation in a public school setting has, sadly, divided this wonderful community. Thousands of dollars have already been spent which otherwise might have purchased hymnals of praise or clothing for the poor, or library books and laptop computers for inquiring young students.

This Jeffersonian Wall of Separation is a protection for both the Church and the State...it is not a restriction. It is to protect both sides from an unwarranted incursion beyond the "Wall", as in the Church's control of the State in the past in France, Russia's suppression of religious freedom in its' historical past, and current religious extremists who proclaim death to infidels who oppose the enthronement of their own religious theology over all others.

How inspiring it is to see Church/State cooperation, within these parameters, in the Baptists' contribution of $70,000 toward a public school faciity in West to protect the young from storms and other dangers; how inspiring to see the gathering of citizens and students of all faiths kneeling in humility and prayer and hope...in the high school gym...as they said farewell to the one they called "coach!"

I challenge all of us to stand ready to protect the ministers and priests of all faiths in their churches, mosques and synagogues as they show us the path of righetousness as they understand it, from the teachings of their Holy Scriptures. And likewise, let us protect the teachers in our schools as they impart State mandated lessons of "reading, writing and arithmetic," and science, and technology, and engineering and mathematics. And we are confident both will remind us of the enduring principles of the worth of the individual, the dignity of mankind, and that no one is exempt from common courtesy, Amen.

Note: These views are my own and do not represent any other person or institution.

To OPP readers:

Apperson is a Whitney resident, professor of History at McLennan Community College and the author of a book about the history of the community of West, where he was a former pastor of First Baptist Church of West. McLennan County seat is Waco, Texas. Whitney is on the other side of Lake Whitney from me.

West, Texas is 20 minutes from my home, and is the West referred to in this guest column. Yes, the West that took the blast from a local fertilizer plant and destroyed much of the small town.
I ran across this in a local paper today. I wante... (show quote)


This is an intelligent article.

It has always been clear to me that America was created as an experiment in secular government.

Through the centuries the science of History teaches us with example after example that when government and religion mix, at one point or another this mix brings about war. Why? Because religion is based in a creed but it is administered by men who are imperfect and cannot help to interpret the creed according to their own convenience.

Jesus was very clear. He took the roman coin, turned it, and showed the followers the face of the roman emperor saying give the roman (the invader) what the roman wants and to God what belongs to God.

These two powers can live together and in harmony because one looks for the material needs of the people and the other for the spiritual well being of men.

How important is to understand that no religious creed contains anything bad for men! All of them are pointing to the spiritual growth of man.

Man has a wonderful mind that according to the creationists was made by God in his own image. Many people misunderstand it and thinks in a representation of God with two legs, two arms and a beard!

The image God was talking about was a mind with infinite creative capacity, understanding of the good and the bad (morals/spirituality) and freedom to choose the way to live surrounded by matter) the body. God did not create illness. Man with his actions brought illness to the body.

Evolutionist believe in a progressive evolution that makes man to try to reach the perfection in the physical and in the spiritual realm.

I do not understand why men fight with each other about religion,government, symbols, power and so on. Any good way you choose to follow takes you to the same conclusion, the spiritual growth of man.

Read the Vedas, the writings about the Buda, Sumerians scrolls, Zen, the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the native traditions, etc, the message is always the same, love and respect your neighbor, contribute to the bettering of your community/ tribe, do not steal, work the land the Supreme gave you respecting Nature, enjoy the beauty that surrounds you, if you have extra share with others.

No original religious writing tells you to abuse nature, to k**l your neighbor, to steal, to mistreat animals and look at them as an inferior species, to pollute the air, to pollute the water all just for temporal gain, to go to war with your neighbor because he believes in something different to what you believe, to use religious believes to k**l and conquer new land.

Every line in these writings say the same, give you neighbor the example of a good life.

If there is any negative thought in the original writings it was added later on by men.

Man is born with an unbelievable beautiful gift, a body which is a wonder in itself and a mind with unlimited power to achieve the best. Look at Einstein, Tesla, Leonard Da Vinci, Jung, the Wright brothers, Chopin, our Founding Fathers, Dostoevski, and so on and on and on.

Why do we not follow beauty instead of temporal power? Why are we so infantile in our reasoning that we prefer the minute of glory instead of pursuing our real potential for good and creativity?

Our country will not improve by bringing religion into its secular principles.it will only change into a caricature of the original idea. It would be a contradiction in itself.

Let's put all our power in building on what the Founding Fathers gave us. It is a magnificent Constitution that we should guard with our life. Our future generations deserve it.

Reply
Jul 24, 2014 16:54:59   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
Thank you, Fom. I have been in Austin most of the day, and just got back. I appreciate, always, your thoughts! :thumbup:

Reply
Jul 24, 2014 17:00:06   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
Rdjarhead wrote:
One of the bests descriptions I've ever read


Rdjarhead, I appreciate that, but I did not write it, as you know. I felt it was well written enough to share with all on the OPP. I thank you for your comment!

Semper Fi! Class of '67..'Nam in '68 & '69. We are well represented on the OPP with some fine men. In time, you will get to recognize and know them all. :thumbup:

Reply
 
 
Jul 24, 2014 17:04:54   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
Thank you, Opal. You continue to impress me with your thoughts and the ability to convey them in written form. I look forward to more input from you on many posts! We may not always agree, but I sure like the style and manner of your comments. Very civil, cordial and intelligent.

:thumbup:

Reply
Jul 24, 2014 17:57:14   #
dcmdm78
 
How can GOD of the BIBLE (Jews/Christians) be the god of the koran? The god of the koran tell the muslims to k**l all Jews,Christians,Catholic s,Hindus,and other nonbelivers were ever you find them,or ens***e them so how God be against him self?rembermer the government of Iran a perfect example of church/state.

Reply
Jul 24, 2014 19:59:27   #
Rdjarhead Loc: Oklahoma
 
slatten49 wrote:
Rdjarhead, I appreciate that, but I did not write it, as you know. I felt it was well written enough to share with all on the OPP. I thank you for your comment!

Semper Fi! Class of '67..'Nam in '68 & '69. We are well represented on the OPP with some fine men. In time, you will get to recognize and know them all. :thumbup:

It's just nice to see people who seem to understand what the founders intent was They were by no means perfect And understood that fact all too well And too many people demonizing and too many people make them saints When in reality they were intelligent people and realize the world will change And the Constitution would need a way two change along with it While maintaining the belief that a moral society Is the only way a democratic republic can't stand. that being said they also understood the need for a government without the church's overriding involvement or the government dictating religious practices. As always an excellent post. Ooh-rah 83 to 88

Reply
Jul 24, 2014 20:22:04   #
dan miller Loc: U.S.A./Michigan
 
Though histroy one country quties that their god or goddess told them to k**l all nonbelivers or ens***ed them,their enemies will do the same if they get the chance. but that all change with the Judaic/Christian view of war which now it formed The Genvea Connvtion Rules for War Now with church/state this too come from the Judaic/Christian ethic of governing i.e the TEN COMMADMETS and more 500 other rules that made up the Mosesic Law. so we all can thank the Jewish people for this.

Reply
 
 
Jul 24, 2014 21:22:36   #
Sicilianthing
 
slatten49 wrote:
I ran across this in a local paper today. I wanted to share.

A Church/State Issue, by Henry Apperson

Once upon a time in America's colonial past, civil magistrates could punish poor souls for religious infractions, resulting in the infamous Salem Witch Trials. In addition, in some southern colonies, taxes were collected from all to support the Anglican Church's mission. Eventually, through persistent efforts of many, including the fiery Baptist evangelical John Leland, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, The First Amendment to the Constitution, in the Bill of Rights, contained the first constitutional guarantee of religious liberty in America.

It provided protection for believers and doubters, to practice their faith as their conscience dictated, without interference from government, at any level. In addition, this unique "Wall of Separation" provided a protection for the State from an overweening influence, or control, by any religious group or faction.

Thus, America's strength has come from two staunch pillars, Civilian Supremacy (the military has always been subservient to civil power) and Religious Freedom, which has led millions to flee despotism and religious intolerance to come to America.

Today, the controversy over religious instruction or mediation in a public school setting has, sadly, divided this wonderful community. Thousands of dollars have already been spent which otherwise might have purchased hymnals of praise or clothing for the poor, or library books and laptop computers for inquiring young students.

This Jeffersonian Wall of Separation is a protection for both the Church and the State...it is not a restriction. It is to protect both sides from an unwarranted incursion beyond the "Wall", as in the Church's control of the State in the past in France, Russia's suppression of religious freedom in its' historical past, and current religious extremists who proclaim death to infidels who oppose the enthronement of their own religious theology over all others.

How inspiring it is to see Church/State cooperation, within these parameters, in the Baptists' contribution of $70,000 toward a public school faciity in West to protect the young from storms and other dangers; how inspiring to see the gathering of citizens and students of all faiths kneeling in humility and prayer and hope...in the high school gym...as they said farewell to the one they called "coach!"

I challenge all of us to stand ready to protect the ministers and priests of all faiths in their churches, mosques and synagogues as they show us the path of righetousness as they understand it, from the teachings of their Holy Scriptures. And likewise, let us protect the teachers in our schools as they impart State mandated lessons of "reading, writing and arithmetic," and science, and technology, and engineering and mathematics. And we are confident both will remind us of the enduring principles of the worth of the individual, the dignity of mankind, and that no one is exempt from common courtesy, Amen.

Note: These views are my own and do not represent any other person or institution.

To OPP readers:

Apperson is a Whitney resident, professor of History at McLennan Community College and the author of a book about the history of the community of West, where he was a former pastor of First Baptist Church of West. McLennan County seat is Waco, Texas. Whitney is on the other side of Lake Whitney from me.

West, Texas is 20 minutes from my home, and is the West referred to in this guest column. Yes, the West that took the blast from a local fertilizer plant and destroyed much of the small town.
I ran across this in a local paper today. I wante... (show quote)


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Awesome !
but will he shoot at Homeland Security or their cohorts when they come to take his weapons ?

Flight
Freeze or
FIGHT !

Which is it ?


And a pocket bible too ? You can carry that when shooting too...no worries...

Reply
Jul 25, 2014 02:14:50   #
Opal12
 
dcmdm78 wrote:
How can GOD of the BIBLE (Jews/Christians) be the god of the koran? The god of the koran tell the muslims to k**l all Jews,Christians,Catholic s,Hindus,and other nonbelivers were ever you find them,or ens***e them so how God be against him self?rembermer the government of Iran a perfect example of church/state.


Muhammad taught his beliefs to very simple people, that worked the land and did not know how to either read or write. He devised a system of verses with the teachings that he invited the people to repeat as a form a prayer.

Long time after, those teachings were finally written. The problem is not the original teachings but the interpretation that were given to those verses by the Imams.

I do not see in any place in the Old Testament or the New one that the believers are supposed to torture, dismember or burnt those that they want to convert. The Catholic Church organized the Crusades that were supposed to do it and did it in many occasions.

If you read my commentary that is what I said. No matter how good the principles in the creed they were changed by the men at the head probably tempted by the sin(error) of power.

I was brought up as a Catholic. As soon I as started to read History I drove everybody crazy with all these questions. No valid answer besides "faith".

I am an individual that can think by myself. I looked for answers reading everything that I got hold of. I learnt that all religions basically say the same.

That the religion does not elevate you spiritually. It is your job to grow spiritually by being the best you can in your relation with other human beings. That you must find the goodness in yourself in order to become part of the goodness in God. And that God is universal.

In the jobs I was engaged, I had to interview people and determine their real needs and their potential. This does not make you feel powerful, on the contrary it shows you how fragile the humankind of which you are a part, is.

I do not care for what the religious communicators say. I prefer to watch their actions. I have been lucky because I have found a few good ones.

Now, going back to the reason for my original statement. For the political arena I prefer a secular government based on moral principles. The moral principles are as simple that a child can understand them. Wh**ever you are doing, it is either good or bad. And this is what every tenet tells you. And your genetic memory, too. Remember? The gut feeling?

Then if you want to follow your religious beliefs at home, you are free to do it.

The moral values are not in conflict with any religious creed. But do not try to impose your religious beliefs on others. Jesus never did it, he preached mostly with example. And he never denied his help to anybody regardless of their status or actions or profession.

Gandhi is another example of the same method.

I do not need to tell you that the mess we are in has been created by a change in values. Now the god is money. To correct this error will take some time.

We have children, let's start working by molding our children on the real values, good and bad. Let's not brainwash them at school by repeating dates and names out of context. Let's explain the children what we did right and what we did wrong and show them the consequences. Children are very intelligent, they will get the message.

It is not Utopia, it can be done. And it does not cost money. Take them to the library. Librarians are the best tool a parent can find to help with the children
development.

And last but not least, insist on a humanistic education, without religious shades. Leave the religion for the Sunday school.

God bless all and each of us.

Reply
Jul 25, 2014 06:34:59   #
Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon
 
Good post. you are enlightened and a free thinker.
Opal12 wrote:
Muhammad taught his beliefs to very simple people, that worked the land and did not know how to either read or write. He devised a system of verses with the teachings that he invited the people to repeat as a form a prayer.

Long time after, those teachings were finally written. The problem is not the original teachings but the interpretation that were given to those verses by the Imams.

I do not see in any place in the Old Testament or the New one that the believers are supposed to torture, dismember or burnt those that they want to convert. The Catholic Church organized the Crusades that were supposed to do it and did it in many occasions.

If you read my commentary that is what I said. No matter how good the principles in the creed they were changed by the men at the head probably tempted by the sin(error) of power.

I was brought up as a Catholic. As soon I as started to read History I drove everybody crazy with all these questions. No valid answer besides "faith".

I am an individual that can think by myself. I looked for answers reading everything that I got hold of. I learnt that all religions basically say the same.

That the religion does not elevate you spiritually. It is your job to grow spiritually by being the best you can in your relation with other human beings. That you must find the goodness in yourself in order to become part of the goodness in God. And that God is universal.

In the jobs I was engaged, I had to interview people and determine their real needs and their potential. This does not make you feel powerful, on the contrary it shows you how fragile the humankind of which you are a part, is.

I do not care for what the religious communicators say. I prefer to watch their actions. I have been lucky because I have found a few good ones.

Now, going back to the reason for my original statement. For the political arena I prefer a secular government based on moral principles. The moral principles are as simple that a child can understand them. Wh**ever you are doing, it is either good or bad. And this is what every tenet tells you. And your genetic memory, too. Remember? The gut feeling?

Then if you want to follow your religious beliefs at home, you are free to do it.

The moral values are not in conflict with any religious creed. But do not try to impose your religious beliefs on others. Jesus never did it, he preached mostly with example. And he never denied his help to anybody regardless of their status or actions or profession.

Gandhi is another example of the same method.

I do not need to tell you that the mess we are in has been created by a change in values. Now the god is money. To correct this error will take some time.

We have children, let's start working by molding our children on the real values, good and bad. Let's not brainwash them at school by repeating dates and names out of context. Let's explain the children what we did right and what we did wrong and show them the consequences. Children are very intelligent, they will get the message.

It is not Utopia, it can be done. And it does not cost money. Take them to the library. Librarians are the best tool a parent can find to help with the children
development.

And last but not least, insist on a humanistic education, without religious shades. Leave the religion for the Sunday school.

God bless all and each of us.
Muhammad taught his beliefs to very simple people,... (show quote)

Reply
Jul 25, 2014 07:53:00   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
Opal12...

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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