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"Incubating a non-dollar architecture". Excellent insight of next global currency.
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Jul 19, 2014 10:50:42   #
Patty
 
Incubating a non-dollar architecture


The launch of the BRICS bank can now give the member countries confidence to experiment with other geoeconomic ambitions. Incubating a non-dollar financial architecture can be the next goal. There are existing models to build upon but India will need smart economic diplomacy to secure its interests


BY Akshay Mathur


Head of Research, Geoeconomics Fellow

After two years of intense negotiation, the BRICS leaders finally launched the New Development Bank on July 15 at the Sixth BRICS Summit in Fortaleza, Brazil. The bank’s focus will be on infrastructure and sustainable development projects through loans, guarantees, credits and equity investments. The decision to share the initial subscribed capital of $50 billion and the resulting voting rights equally, reflects a commitment by the five countries to view each other with equity[1].

The launch of the bank will now give the BRICS five confidence to experiment with other geoeconomic ambitions. Chief among them is the desire to conduct trade in local currencies. Russia is moving to denominate its energy assets in roubles, China is pushing for the renminbi to become the global currency of choice for trade payments, and India was creatively using rupee accounts to hold payments for Iran after the U.S. and EU imposed financial sanctions on Iran.

Can the mandate of the new bank be extended to incubate a non-dollar financial architecture for emerging countries? If so, what would the design look like?

In its most basic form, this architecture would need three components, one each to support trade, settlements and investments in the local currencies of the five countries– rupees, rouble, renminbi, rial, rand.

1. A mechanism that enables trade in local currencies. Since none of the five currencies are global reserve tender, the respective central banks will have to make their currencies available to the group. Article 24 of the BRICS bank does provide for financing of projects in local currencies[2]. However, for enabling trade, the bank will have to enable currency swaps between the central banks or activate the Multilateral Agreement on Extending Credit in Local Currencies signed at the 4th BRICS Summit in New Delhi in 2012[3].

China has been experimenting with such swaps bilaterally to push for greater use of the renminbi. It has swaps with 21 countries including Russia and Brazil, denominated in renminbi worth up to RMB 2,600 billion ($420 billion) and is encouraging partner countries to pay for their imports from China in renminbi[4]. Brazil has been experimenting with conducting trade with Argentina in rial and pesos through an agreement inked in 2008[5].

India has three swaps to its credit – Bhutan ($100 million), SAARC ($2 billion), Japan ($50 billion). However, these swaps are denominated in dollars and earmarked only as a line of reserve for partner countries during a balance-of-payment crisis; it is not for enabling trade payments[6]. When the rupee was depreciating rapidly against the dollar in 2013, New Delhi scurried to set up a task force to study how trade in local currencies can be enabled, and also indicated that it may sign currency swaps denominated in rupees with 23 countries[7]. However, no definitive measures were announced.

2. A mechanism for settling local currencies. Since trade payments will be made in five local currencies, a new settlement system will have to be created, as dollar-based transactions are ultimately cleared by the Federal Reserve of the U.S. There are no provisions in the bank for this yet but there are two models that can be built on – Asian Clearing Union and RMB Trade Settlement Scheme.

The Asian Clearing Union (ACU) was established in 1974 to encourage trade between India, Iran, Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Maldives. It provided a system for the members to settle trade in their local currencies. At its peak in the 1980s, ACU cleared up to 84% worth of trade amongst its members[8]. Since then, its usage has dropped mostly due to western pressure against Myanmar (until the 2010 reforms) and Iran but it is a workable model for settling trade in non-dollar currencies.

China experimented with settling trade in renminbi between foreign traders and mainland China enterprises by launching the RMB Trade Settlement Scheme in 2009 in Hong Kong[9]. The success of that experiment has enabled it to extend renminbi clearing and financial services to Singapore, Germany, Taiwan and the UK, proving that the use of a non-dollar currency is possible.

3. A mechanism to invest ‘surplus’ local currencies. Since trade is not perfectly balanced between the BRICS, it is likely that some countries will be left with the surplus currency of another country even after payments have been cleared through the clearing union. For instance, India has a $36 billion annual trade deficit with China. Even if 50% of it were settled through the clearing union, China will still be left with, $18 billion worth of rupees.[10] This surplus can be settled in dollars, as ACU currency does with surpluses left over from trade between its members.

An alternative strategy would be for India to have China hold rupees in an interest-bearing financial product such as government securities or corporate bonds in India. This will enable the rupees to be re-invested into the Indian economy. Foreign ownership of rupees has its risks but the capital may help avoid Indian businesses take on foreign loans to finance their operations. It is a strategy the United States has successfully pursued over many decades. For instance, in the 1970s the U.S. convinced the Gulf countries not to launch their own currency but denominate oil in dollars and invest the money through financial products in the U.S. markets. The U.S. did the same with China which was accumulating dollars, convincing it to hold its reserves in the US financial markets. Today, the U.S. remains a trade deficit country but it is able to attract dollars back into its economy and recycle the capital into global opportunities with higher returns for itself. Of course, the U.S. has built deep and sophisticated markets to support its financial statecraft, which no other country in the world has yet replicated.

At the moment, Article 19 of the bank only has a provision to facilitate access to international capital markets for project financing[11]. This will have to be expanded to support investments in local currency financial products. China has launched the Renminbi Qualified Foreign Institutional Investor Program (RQFII) to attract RMB raised by investors offshore, back into China’s onshore securities markets[12]. HSBC and Fullerton Fund have already launched financial products to use this option. This is in addition to the renminbi-denominated bonds that Nigeria, Australia and Japan have bought to convert their reserves into renminbi.

India can provide similar financial products – without having to announce full capital account convertibility. Today, sovereign wealth funds and foreign central banks can invest in Indian government securities. But there is a limit of $10 billion and it can only be done in U.S. dollars as it brings in valuable foreign exchange[13]. The RBI also heavily regulates rupees-based accounts. It only recently allowed foreign institutions to open accounts where they can park rupees earned from the sale of assets in India until their next investment[14]. For enabling investments in rupee instruments, much more deregulation would be required.

Some Indian government officials remain concerned that foreign ownership of the rupee is an eerie reminder of the Rupee Trade Agreements signed in the 1960s with eastern European countries. It negatively affected India’s exports and eventually partner countries refused to hold rupees when its value depreciated[15]. However, the Indian economy, financial markets, technical infrastructure, regulatory supervision, and geoeconomic heft are far more sophisticated now. To expect the same risk is being over-cautious and reflects the pessimism that India will remain a trade deficit nation in the future. Even so, BRICS bank can always enforce limits on the surplus holdings as Keynes had originally suggested when designing the IMF. Businesses too are reluctant to switch to multi-currency architecture because it will cost to create the supporting technical, legal and regulatory processes. They also fear losing the West as a valuable source of investment and finance, in case the West retaliates.

China can build the alternate architecture just by itself and for itself. If that happens, a renminbi-based geoeconomic architecture could be as unfair as the existing dollar-based architecture – so it is even more important to build a multilateral architecture.

The only way to ensure that each country’s interest is protected is through smart economic diplomacy. Otherwise, the larger financial eco-system will not be willing to join this experiment with the BRICS bank.

Akshay Mathur is the Geoeconomics Fellow and Head of Research, at Gateway House: Indian Council on Global Relations, Mumbai.

| Reply
Jul 19, 2014 11:11:49   #
marjorie
 
Patty Isn't there a great book that also tells about such an event that will happen. Maybe not as through as Mathur but its there also just how the end comes about in its very final days. Then tells also how we can can escape thos horrible days.

| Reply
Jul 19, 2014 11:14:39   #
Patty
 
Yes, there are many. Everything from the Bible to Rickards "Death of the Dollar" Depends what you are looking for.
marjorie wrote:
Patty Isn't there a great book that also tells about such an event that will happen. Maybe not as through as Mathur but its there also just how the end comes about in its very final days. Then tells also how we can can escape thos horrible days.

| Reply
Jul 19, 2014 11:18:27   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
Patty wrote:
Incubating a non-dollar architecture


The launch of the BRICS bank can now give the member countries confidence to experiment with other geoeconomic ambitions. Incubating a non-dollar financial architecture can be the next goal. There are existing models to build upon but India will need smart economic diplomacy to secure its interests


BY Akshay Mathur


Head of Research, Geoeconomics Fellow

After two years of intense negotiation, the BRICS leaders finally launched the New Development Bank on July 15 at the Sixth BRICS Summit in Fortaleza, Brazil. The bank’s focus will be on infrastructure and sustainable development projects through loans, guarantees, credits and equity investments. The decision to share the initial subscribed capital of $50 billion and the resulting voting rights equally, reflects a commitment by the five countries to view each other with equity[1].

The launch of the bank will now give the BRICS five confidence to experiment with other geoeconomic ambitions. Chief among them is the desire to conduct trade in local currencies. Russia is moving to denominate its energy assets in roubles, China is pushing for the renminbi to become the global currency of choice for trade payments, and India was creatively using rupee accounts to hold payments for Iran after the U.S. and EU imposed financial sanctions on Iran.

Can the mandate of the new bank be extended to incubate a non-dollar financial architecture for emerging countries? If so, what would the design look like?

In its most basic form, this architecture would need three components, one each to support trade, settlements and investments in the local currencies of the five countries– rupees, rouble, renminbi, rial, rand.

1. A mechanism that enables trade in local currencies. Since none of the five currencies are global reserve tender, the respective central banks will have to make their currencies available to the group. Article 24 of the BRICS bank does provide for financing of projects in local currencies[2]. However, for enabling trade, the bank will have to enable currency swaps between the central banks or activate the Multilateral Agreement on Extending Credit in Local Currencies signed at the 4th BRICS Summit in New Delhi in 2012[3].

China has been experimenting with such swaps bilaterally to push for greater use of the renminbi. It has swaps with 21 countries including Russia and Brazil, denominated in renminbi worth up to RMB 2,600 billion ($420 billion) and is encouraging partner countries to pay for their imports from China in renminbi[4]. Brazil has been experimenting with conducting trade with Argentina in rial and pesos through an agreement inked in 2008[5].

India has three swaps to its credit – Bhutan ($100 million), SAARC ($2 billion), Japan ($50 billion). However, these swaps are denominated in dollars and earmarked only as a line of reserve for partner countries during a balance-of-payment crisis; it is not for enabling trade payments[6]. When the rupee was depreciating rapidly against the dollar in 2013, New Delhi scurried to set up a task force to study how trade in local currencies can be enabled, and also indicated that it may sign currency swaps denominated in rupees with 23 countries[7]. However, no definitive measures were announced.

2. A mechanism for settling local currencies. Since trade payments will be made in five local currencies, a new settlement system will have to be created, as dollar-based transactions are ultimately cleared by the Federal Reserve of the U.S. There are no provisions in the bank for this yet but there are two models that can be built on – Asian Clearing Union and RMB Trade Settlement Scheme.

The Asian Clearing Union (ACU) was established in 1974 to encourage trade between India, Iran, Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Maldives. It provided a system for the members to settle trade in their local currencies. At its peak in the 1980s, ACU cleared up to 84% worth of trade amongst its members[8]. Since then, its usage has dropped mostly due to western pressure against Myanmar (until the 2010 reforms) and Iran but it is a workable model for settling trade in non-dollar currencies.

China experimented with settling trade in renminbi between foreign traders and mainland China enterprises by launching the RMB Trade Settlement Scheme in 2009 in Hong Kong[9]. The success of that experiment has enabled it to extend renminbi clearing and financial services to Singapore, Germany, Taiwan and the UK, proving that the use of a non-dollar currency is possible.

3. A mechanism to invest ‘surplus’ local currencies. Since trade is not perfectly balanced between the BRICS, it is likely that some countries will be left with the surplus currency of another country even after payments have been cleared through the clearing union. For instance, India has a $36 billion annual trade deficit with China. Even if 50% of it were settled through the clearing union, China will still be left with, $18 billion worth of rupees.[10] This surplus can be settled in dollars, as ACU currency does with surpluses left over from trade between its members.

An alternative strategy would be for India to have China hold rupees in an interest-bearing financial product such as government securities or corporate bonds in India. This will enable the rupees to be re-invested into the Indian economy. Foreign ownership of rupees has its risks but the capital may help avoid Indian businesses take on foreign loans to finance their operations. It is a strategy the United States has successfully pursued over many decades. For instance, in the 1970s the U.S. convinced the Gulf countries not to launch their own currency but denominate oil in dollars and invest the money through financial products in the U.S. markets. The U.S. did the same with China which was accumulating dollars, convincing it to hold its reserves in the US financial markets. Today, the U.S. remains a trade deficit country but it is able to attract dollars back into its economy and recycle the capital into global opportunities with higher returns for itself. Of course, the U.S. has built deep and sophisticated markets to support its financial statecraft, which no other country in the world has yet replicated.

At the moment, Article 19 of the bank only has a provision to facilitate access to international capital markets for project financing[11]. This will have to be expanded to support investments in local currency financial products. China has launched the Renminbi Qualified Foreign Institutional Investor Program (RQFII) to attract RMB raised by investors offshore, back into China’s onshore securities markets[12]. HSBC and Fullerton Fund have already launched financial products to use this option. This is in addition to the renminbi-denominated bonds that Nigeria, Australia and Japan have bought to convert their reserves into renminbi.

India can provide similar financial products – without having to announce full capital account convertibility. Today, sovereign wealth funds and foreign central banks can invest in Indian government securities. But there is a limit of $10 billion and it can only be done in U.S. dollars as it brings in valuable foreign exchange[13]. The RBI also heavily regulates rupees-based accounts. It only recently allowed foreign institutions to open accounts where they can park rupees earned from the sale of assets in India until their next investment[14]. For enabling investments in rupee instruments, much more deregulation would be required.

Some Indian government officials remain concerned that foreign ownership of the rupee is an eerie reminder of the Rupee Trade Agreements signed in the 1960s with eastern European countries. It negatively affected India’s exports and eventually partner countries refused to hold rupees when its value depreciated[15]. However, the Indian economy, financial markets, technical infrastructure, regulatory supervision, and geoeconomic heft are far more sophisticated now. To expect the same risk is being over-cautious and reflects the pessimism that India will remain a trade deficit nation in the future. Even so, BRICS bank can always enforce limits on the surplus holdings as Keynes had originally suggested when designing the IMF. Businesses too are reluctant to switch to multi-currency architecture because it will cost to create the supporting technical, legal and regulatory processes. They also fear losing the West as a valuable source of investment and finance, in case the West retaliates.

China can build the alternate architecture just by itself and for itself. If that happens, a renminbi-based geoeconomic architecture could be as unfair as the existing dollar-based architecture – so it is even more important to build a multilateral architecture.

The only way to ensure that each country’s interest is protected is through smart economic diplomacy. Otherwise, the larger financial eco-system will not be willing to join this experiment with the BRICS bank.

Akshay Mathur is the Geoeconomics Fellow and Head of Research, at Gateway House: Indian Council on Global Relations, Mumbai.
Incubating a non-dollar architecture br br br Th... (show quote)


Changes to the system that controls the flow of money are coming.

What we are seeing now is players jockeying for position in what is to come.

What you & I can can only hope for is that it is not based on debt. Like we have here in the US now.

The need is to reduce the chances for the Money Changers to
play games & skim money from the system.

| Reply
Jul 19, 2014 16:09:15   #
Sicilianthing
 
Patty wrote:
Incubating a non-dollar architecture


The launch of the BRICS bank can now give the member countries confidence to experiment with other geoeconomic ambitions. Incubating a non-dollar financial architecture can be the next goal. There are existing models to build upon but India will need smart economic diplomacy to secure its interests


BY Akshay Mathur


Head of Research, Geoeconomics Fellow

After two years of intense negotiation, the BRICS leaders finally launched the New Development Bank on July 15 at the Sixth BRICS Summit in Fortaleza, Brazil. The bank’s focus will be on infrastructure and sustainable development projects through loans, guarantees, credits and equity investments. The decision to share the initial subscribed capital of $50 billion and the resulting voting rights equally, reflects a commitment by the five countries to view each other with equity[1].

The launch of the bank will now give the BRICS five confidence to experiment with other geoeconomic ambitions. Chief among them is the desire to conduct trade in local currencies. Russia is moving to denominate its energy assets in roubles, China is pushing for the renminbi to become the global currency of choice for trade payments, and India was creatively using rupee accounts to hold payments for Iran after the U.S. and EU imposed financial sanctions on Iran.

Can the mandate of the new bank be extended to incubate a non-dollar financial architecture for emerging countries? If so, what would the design look like?

In its most basic form, this architecture would need three components, one each to support trade, settlements and investments in the local currencies of the five countries– rupees, rouble, renminbi, rial, rand.

1. A mechanism that enables trade in local currencies. Since none of the five currencies are global reserve tender, the respective central banks will have to make their currencies available to the group. Article 24 of the BRICS bank does provide for financing of projects in local currencies[2]. However, for enabling trade, the bank will have to enable currency swaps between the central banks or activate the Multilateral Agreement on Extending Credit in Local Currencies signed at the 4th BRICS Summit in New Delhi in 2012[3].

China has been experimenting with such swaps bilaterally to push for greater use of the renminbi. It has swaps with 21 countries including Russia and Brazil, denominated in renminbi worth up to RMB 2,600 billion ($420 billion) and is encouraging partner countries to pay for their imports from China in renminbi[4]. Brazil has been experimenting with conducting trade with Argentina in rial and pesos through an agreement inked in 2008[5].

India has three swaps to its credit – Bhutan ($100 million), SAARC ($2 billion), Japan ($50 billion). However, these swaps are denominated in dollars and earmarked only as a line of reserve for partner countries during a balance-of-payment crisis; it is not for enabling trade payments[6]. When the rupee was depreciating rapidly against the dollar in 2013, New Delhi scurried to set up a task force to study how trade in local currencies can be enabled, and also indicated that it may sign currency swaps denominated in rupees with 23 countries[7]. However, no definitive measures were announced.

2. A mechanism for settling local currencies. Since trade payments will be made in five local currencies, a new settlement system will have to be created, as dollar-based transactions are ultimately cleared by the Federal Reserve of the U.S. There are no provisions in the bank for this yet but there are two models that can be built on – Asian Clearing Union and RMB Trade Settlement Scheme.

The Asian Clearing Union (ACU) was established in 1974 to encourage trade between India, Iran, Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Maldives. It provided a system for the members to settle trade in their local currencies. At its peak in the 1980s, ACU cleared up to 84% worth of trade amongst its members[8]. Since then, its usage has dropped mostly due to western pressure against Myanmar (until the 2010 reforms) and Iran but it is a workable model for settling trade in non-dollar currencies.

China experimented with settling trade in renminbi between foreign traders and mainland China enterprises by launching the RMB Trade Settlement Scheme in 2009 in Hong Kong[9]. The success of that experiment has enabled it to extend renminbi clearing and financial services to Singapore, Germany, Taiwan and the UK, proving that the use of a non-dollar currency is possible.

3. A mechanism to invest ‘surplus’ local currencies. Since trade is not perfectly balanced between the BRICS, it is likely that some countries will be left with the surplus currency of another country even after payments have been cleared through the clearing union. For instance, India has a $36 billion annual trade deficit with China. Even if 50% of it were settled through the clearing union, China will still be left with, $18 billion worth of rupees.[10] This surplus can be settled in dollars, as ACU currency does with surpluses left over from trade between its members.

An alternative strategy would be for India to have China hold rupees in an interest-bearing financial product such as government securities or corporate bonds in India. This will enable the rupees to be re-invested into the Indian economy. Foreign ownership of rupees has its risks but the capital may help avoid Indian businesses take on foreign loans to finance their operations. It is a strategy the United States has successfully pursued over many decades. For instance, in the 1970s the U.S. convinced the Gulf countries not to launch their own currency but denominate oil in dollars and invest the money through financial products in the U.S. markets. The U.S. did the same with China which was accumulating dollars, convincing it to hold its reserves in the US financial markets. Today, the U.S. remains a trade deficit country but it is able to attract dollars back into its economy and recycle the capital into global opportunities with higher returns for itself. Of course, the U.S. has built deep and sophisticated markets to support its financial statecraft, which no other country in the world has yet replicated.

At the moment, Article 19 of the bank only has a provision to facilitate access to international capital markets for project financing[11]. This will have to be expanded to support investments in local currency financial products. China has launched the Renminbi Qualified Foreign Institutional Investor Program (RQFII) to attract RMB raised by investors offshore, back into China’s onshore securities markets[12]. HSBC and Fullerton Fund have already launched financial products to use this option. This is in addition to the renminbi-denominated bonds that Nigeria, Australia and Japan have bought to convert their reserves into renminbi.

India can provide similar financial products – without having to announce full capital account convertibility. Today, sovereign wealth funds and foreign central banks can invest in Indian government securities. But there is a limit of $10 billion and it can only be done in U.S. dollars as it brings in valuable foreign exchange[13]. The RBI also heavily regulates rupees-based accounts. It only recently allowed foreign institutions to open accounts where they can park rupees earned from the sale of assets in India until their next investment[14]. For enabling investments in rupee instruments, much more deregulation would be required.

Some Indian government officials remain concerned that foreign ownership of the rupee is an eerie reminder of the Rupee Trade Agreements signed in the 1960s with eastern European countries. It negatively affected India’s exports and eventually partner countries refused to hold rupees when its value depreciated[15]. However, the Indian economy, financial markets, technical infrastructure, regulatory supervision, and geoeconomic heft are far more sophisticated now. To expect the same risk is being over-cautious and reflects the pessimism that India will remain a trade deficit nation in the future. Even so, BRICS bank can always enforce limits on the surplus holdings as Keynes had originally suggested when designing the IMF. Businesses too are reluctant to switch to multi-currency architecture because it will cost to create the supporting technical, legal and regulatory processes. They also fear losing the West as a valuable source of investment and finance, in case the West retaliates.

China can build the alternate architecture just by itself and for itself. If that happens, a renminbi-based geoeconomic architecture could be as unfair as the existing dollar-based architecture – so it is even more important to build a multilateral architecture.

The only way to ensure that each country’s interest is protected is through smart economic diplomacy. Otherwise, the larger financial eco-system will not be willing to join this experiment with the BRICS bank.

Akshay Mathur is the Geoeconomics Fellow and Head of Research, at Gateway House: Indian Council on Global Relations, Mumbai.
Incubating a non-dollar architecture br br br Th... (show quote)


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll read it get back to you...

| Reply
Jul 19, 2014 16:30:32   #
Patty
 
I think he is spot on except he doesn't mention the trigger that will force it to all come together in a rapid response trying to survive. I cant believe Obama is talking about more sanctions. He just doesn't get it.
Sicilianthing wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll read it get back to you...

| Reply
Jul 19, 2014 16:32:32   #
Patty
 
108 days until Election Day 2014

a Tuesday 3 months and 16 days from today
- See more at: http://daycalc.appspot.com/election-day-2014#sthash.gLnsFq8f.dpuf
I fear they will do something stupid knowing they will lose the senate also.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-19/brics-plan-become-political-alliance-reform-international-financial-system

| Reply
Jul 20, 2014 16:23:11   #
rawwar
 
Patty wrote:
108 days until Election Day 2014

a Tuesday 3 months and 16 days from today
- See more at: http://daycalc.appspot.com/election-day-2014#sthash.gLnsFq8f.dpuf
I fear they will do something stupid knowing they will lose the senate also.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-19/brics-plan-become-political-alliance-reform-international-financial-system


I think there will be a false flag event and he will stop the elections through Marshall law .

| Reply
Jul 21, 2014 08:36:58   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
rawwar wrote:
I think there will be a false flag event and he will stop the elections through Marshall law .


If you think that will happen what makes you think it will not happen with any one else in office?

It is only because we as the masses are so divided that who ever is pulling the strings can drive us to act against each other.

One needs to look at who really gains if we fight with each other.

| Reply
Jul 21, 2014 08:47:39   #
Patty
 
False flags continue to happen because the stupid buy into them.
Look at Uke. the video of the discussion between rebels and Russian Gen has now been shown to be tampered with. The video of the bank of BUKS with one missing was video taped in the junta held area. The BUKS that the separatists had were all "red tipped" and unable to reach MORE THAN 22,000 ' but still the MSM media continues to blame it on the separatists with the help of the White House press staff.
The sheep continue to be comfortable in their blind flag waving completely unaware that a war that Obama is planning with Russia will draw in China and will be nuclear. Only the people in there bunkers will survive and the sheep keep grazing. Their stupidity is a reflexion and a dangerous to us all.
Floyd Brown wrote:
If you think that will happen what makes you think it will not happen with any one else in office?

It is only because we as the masses are so divided that who ever is pulling the strings can drive us to act against each other.

One needs to look at who really gains if we fight with each other.

| Reply
Jul 21, 2014 09:41:23   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
Patty wrote:
False flags continue to happen because the stupid buy into them.
Look at Uke. the video of the discussion between rebels and Russian Gen has now been shown to be tampered with. The video of the bank of BUKS with one missing was video taped in the junta held area. The BUKS that the separatists had were all "red tipped" and unable to reach MORE THAN 22,000 ' but still the MSM media continues to blame it on the separatists with the help of the White House press staff.
The sheep continue to be comfortable in their blind flag waving completely unaware that a war that Obama is planning with Russia will draw in China and will be nuclear. Only the people in there bunkers will survive and the sheep keep grazing. Their stupidity is a reflexion and a dangerous to us all.
False flags continue to happen because the stupid ... (show quote)


But of course you know what really happened .

Just a little red paint made all the difference to you.

That the parties with the most possible answers to the problem are in control of the situation holds little doubt for. you.

Just remember that you & your agenda are very short sighted.

I agree with much of what you say that has been done by the US has been less that what one would hope for.

But to attempt to stir up the issue on incomplete information is only of interest to those that wish to stir up the public.

| Reply
Jul 21, 2014 09:51:59   #
Patty
 
Here are the facts if you want to even know. These have not been updated today to show both videos altered but I m sure will be soon. Till then you can see the time stamps and aeronautic proof that has been given.
Doesn't anyone do any research any more?
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/
Floyd Brown wrote:
But of course you know what really happened .

Just a little red paint made all the difference to you.

That the parties with the most possible answers to the problem are in control of the situation holds little doubt for. you.

Just remember that you & your agenda are very short sighted.

I agree with much of what you say that has been done by the US has been less that what one would hope for.

But to attempt to stir up the issue on incomplete information is only of interest to those that wish to stir up the public.
But of course you know what really happened . br ... (show quote)


:roll:

| Reply
Jul 21, 2014 09:56:48   #
| Reply
Jul 21, 2014 10:44:17   #
marjorie
 
Isn't it a take. Put everyone into panic mode through money. Been in a country where they just closed the banks for a week. Reopened them and WHATA YOU KNOW got half of your savings and a complete new currency worth less than half, plus if you had two(2) cars or homes just one. If you were a pilot no one from your family could fly anywhere. This went on and on and on. Is this what we see coming? Could very well happen here regardless of what our CONSTITUTION says.

| Reply
Jul 22, 2014 10:01:43   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 


This is of little interest to me because I will not be me that sets the blame.

Some where in all that will be said there is the truth. I doubt very much that in the final words the truth will be found.

I still say that making a big issue of this part of an ongoing situation is a waste of my personal time.

The issue is just serving those that wish to see us divided.

| Reply
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