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Dec 9, 2019 18:13:47   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Okay, then I misunderstood you. I was contending against the idea of “vowing to protect other *faiths*”, not “vowing to protect the very lives or rights of *people of* other faiths” which are completely different concepts.

As a Christian I would (I hope that I would, anyway) lay down my life to save the “life” of someone of “another faith” just as for my own family or friends.

Jesus, after all, died for us while we were yet sinners.


Yes... It's hard to say for certain that one could actually go the distance on this one... But I feel the same way...

God bless

Reply
Dec 10, 2019 11:52:28   #
bahmer
 
Parky60 wrote:
I am the way, and the t***h, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. Jesus Christ


Amen and Amen

Reply
Dec 10, 2019 18:06:53   #
debeda
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
10 Ways The World’s Religions Have Sworn To Protect Other Faiths
MARK OLIVER

Our world is so fraught with men tearing down innocent lives, claiming to act on the will of God, that when two people from different religions help each other, it makes the news. We view a Christian helping a Muslim or a Muslim helping a Jew as something so unusual that it’s considered out of the ordinary.It wasn’t always supposed to be this way, though. Peace is a tenant of every major religion. There are moments in history when members of the world’s religions have stood up and sworn to keep those who are faithful to another god safe and free.

10. Muhammad Vowed To Protect The Christian Nation
Saint Catherine’s Monastery has something unique: a contract promising to protect them—written by Muhammad.Muhammad held a good relationship with the monks there and in AD 626 wrote up document swearing an oath to keep them safe from his follower’s attacks. “No one shall molest them,” the founder of Islam promised. According to the document, Muslims are also not to tax the church, and they are to share crops with them whenever they have enough.The contract goes beyond just protecting one church. In it, Muhammad promises to protect “the Christian nation” on the whole, “whosoever they may be, whether they be the noble or the vulgar.”“Whosoever of my nation shall presume to break my promise and oath,” Muhammad wrote, “destroys the promise of God.”

9. The Dalai Lama Urged Buddhists To Protect Muslims.
In 2014, an outbreak of violence against Muslims spread across Myanmar and Sri Lanka. These were countries that were primarily Buddhist, and when news of terrorist attacks spread, the people got frightened—and got violent. 250 Muslims died, and another 140,000 were chased out of their homes.The Dalai Lama himself spoke out against the Buddhists’ actions. “Before [you] commit such a crime,” he told the people of the two nations, “imagine an image of Buddha.” The Dalai Lama explained that no part of Buddha’s teachings or life condoned these attacks.Instead, the Dalai Lama urged followers of the faith to take up action to protect their Muslim neighbors from other Buddhists. This, he said, was what Buddha would do if he was in the middle of a r**t—and the way a Buddhist should live.

8. Sikhs Are Required To Defend The Rights Of Other Persecuted Religions
The Sikh religion is often misunderstood. More than a few people have confused Sikhs with Muslims, writing off all non-Christian religions as “turban-wearers” in a tone of distaste.The Sikh turban, though, is part of a remarkable set of rules. It is a one of five rules called the kakaars—symbolic articles that Sikhs are to keep with them to remind them of their baptismal vows. Those vows show an extraordinary commitment to helping other faiths.One of them requires Sikhs to risk their own lives to defend others against oppression—including oppression against other faiths. Sikhs are to carry a sword called a kirpan at all times to remind themselves of their commitment to help anyone who is in need. They’re not allowed using it to attack. It’s only to be used to defend oppressed people when all other means have failed.

7. A Jewish University Won’t Let Its Chapels Cast A Shadow On Each Other
Brandeis University was started as a private, Jewish institution, and to this day still has Hebrew writing on their crest. They do not, however, exclude other religions—and have one of the most remarkable ways of showing respect to other faiths.The university is home to three different chapels, one Jewish, one Catholic, and one Protestant. The three buildings are built quite close to each other, but they’re designed to be as equal as possible.All three chapels have nearly identical designs. Each one has a floor-to-ceiling window, all facing the same pond, planned so that the best view is shared by all three faiths. Most remarkably of all, though, is that the buildings were planned to make sure that no chapel would ever cast a shadow on another—symbolizing peace and e******y between the three faiths.

6. When Muslims Conquered Jerusalem, They Invited Jews To Live With Them
In 629, Jerusalem was captured by the Christian Byzantine Empire. These rulers were harsh to their Jewish subjects. They persecuted them brutally, ultimately sending them out of their ancestral home and denying them permission ever to return.That changed, though, about 10 years later—thanks to a Muslim army. The Muslims laid siege to Jerusalem, took it from the Christians, and conquered the city. When the Christians surrendered, they were still so determined to keep Jews out that they made it a condition for their surrender—but the Muslims ignored it.As soon as Jerusalem was under Muslim rule, Jews were invited back in. They were granted freedom to follow their own religion and a place on the Mount of Olives designated for Jewish prayer meetings and holiday celebrations. The relationship between Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem wasn’t perfect, and it got worse over time—but the Muslims never kicked the Jews out, and the two faiths still lived together until Jerusalem was lost in the Crusades.

5. Mormons Keep A Storehouse To Feed Needy People Of Any Faith
Mormons are prepared for anything. Members of the religion are expected to keep a three-month supply of food stockpiled at all times, just in case of an emergency—and the church does the same. The Church keeps a 50,000 square meter (500,000 ft2) warehouse ready at all times in case of a disaster.Those disasters, though, aren’t just ones that affect Mormons. The warehouse is put to use when a disaster strikes anywhere in the world. The Mormons use it to send out aid to victims in need, regardless of their faith. It’s used every day, too. Food from that warehouse and others like it are sent to 142 Mormon operations around the world that feed the hungry.

4. Sikh Gurdwaras Offer Free Meals To Members Of Every Faith
The Sikh religion employs a langar—a kitchen designed to feed hungry people in need. Free meals at langars are prepared by volunteers and are served to everyone, regardless of their race or religion.Langars only serve vegetarian food—but not because of Sikh diets. Sikhs are free to eat all the meat they want; they just know that members of other religions are not. They exclusively serve vegetarian meals so that members of every religion can partake.The biggest langar is at The Golden Temple, a Sikh shrine that serves 100,000 people every day. The temple goes through 1.5 tons of soup daily and take hundreds of millions of dollars to run, money the temple raises through donations that are put to use to help everybody.

3. The Keys To The Holiest Christian Site Are Held By A Muslim Family
The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is one of the most significant places a Christian can visit. It’s built on the place where Jesus is believed to have been crucified and entombed, making it not just a church but a site for a key moment in the religion’s history. Thousands of Catholics travel to Jerusalem just to see it, and when they do, the doors are opened by a Muslim.Since 1517, a Muslim family has held the key to the church. The family signed a contract swearing to keep it safe, and they’ve followed it ever since. Another Muslim family is tasked with opening and closing the doors, and they take the key in the morning and let the Christians in.The tradition was started to promote peace and unity between the two faiths, which have often been at war. For 500 years, these families have passed the responsibility from generation to generation, each Muslim father teaching his son his role in helping the Catholic faith.

2. Hindus Protected Sikhs When A Sikh Assassinated Indira Gandhi
In 1984, the Prime Minister of India, Indira Gandhi, was assassinated by a Sikh bodyguard. The people of India were furious. R**ts broke out, and Sikhs were d**gged from their homes and k**led. Other Hindus, though, took a stand. When the country erupted in chaos, many Hindus brought their Sikh neighbors into their homes and sheltered them.At one apartment, a mob threated to burn the whole building down if the Sikh family living inside wasn’t brought out and delivered to them—but the Hindu families there refused to do it. 200 Hindu families stood their ground and chased the mob off, saving the lives of the Sikh family within.By the end, more than 600 Sikh lives were saved by the actions of their Hindu neighbors.

1. Baha’i Temples Are Open To People Of All Religions
For all the division that exist between religions, the Baha’i (an offshoot of Islam) embraces other faiths completely and unequivocally. This “world religion” believes “all the prophets of God proclaim the same faith.”In a Baha’i house of worship, people of all religions are invited to worship their own gods. The temple is meant to bring people together rather than to encourage division, and so all prayers and forms of meditation are permitted within, without exception.Sermons and speeches are forbidden, but members of the faith can read holy texts aloud. The religion doesn’t just limit its people to reading its own scriptures, either—people in their churches read from any text their religion considers holy.
10 Ways The World’s Religions Have Sworn To Protec... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Dec 10, 2019 18:07:53   #
debeda
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
10 Ways The World’s Religions Have Sworn To Protect Other Faiths
MARK OLIVER

Our world is so fraught with men tearing down innocent lives, claiming to act on the will of God, that when two people from different religions help each other, it makes the news. We view a Christian helping a Muslim or a Muslim helping a Jew as something so unusual that it’s considered out of the ordinary.It wasn’t always supposed to be this way, though. Peace is a tenant of every major religion. There are moments in history when members of the world’s religions have stood up and sworn to keep those who are faithful to another god safe and free.

10. Muhammad Vowed To Protect The Christian Nation
Saint Catherine’s Monastery has something unique: a contract promising to protect them—written by Muhammad.Muhammad held a good relationship with the monks there and in AD 626 wrote up document swearing an oath to keep them safe from his follower’s attacks. “No one shall molest them,” the founder of Islam promised. According to the document, Muslims are also not to tax the church, and they are to share crops with them whenever they have enough.The contract goes beyond just protecting one church. In it, Muhammad promises to protect “the Christian nation” on the whole, “whosoever they may be, whether they be the noble or the vulgar.”“Whosoever of my nation shall presume to break my promise and oath,” Muhammad wrote, “destroys the promise of God.”

9. The Dalai Lama Urged Buddhists To Protect Muslims.
In 2014, an outbreak of violence against Muslims spread across Myanmar and Sri Lanka. These were countries that were primarily Buddhist, and when news of terrorist attacks spread, the people got frightened—and got violent. 250 Muslims died, and another 140,000 were chased out of their homes.The Dalai Lama himself spoke out against the Buddhists’ actions. “Before [you] commit such a crime,” he told the people of the two nations, “imagine an image of Buddha.” The Dalai Lama explained that no part of Buddha’s teachings or life condoned these attacks.Instead, the Dalai Lama urged followers of the faith to take up action to protect their Muslim neighbors from other Buddhists. This, he said, was what Buddha would do if he was in the middle of a r**t—and the way a Buddhist should live.

8. Sikhs Are Required To Defend The Rights Of Other Persecuted Religions
The Sikh religion is often misunderstood. More than a few people have confused Sikhs with Muslims, writing off all non-Christian religions as “turban-wearers” in a tone of distaste.The Sikh turban, though, is part of a remarkable set of rules. It is a one of five rules called the kakaars—symbolic articles that Sikhs are to keep with them to remind them of their baptismal vows. Those vows show an extraordinary commitment to helping other faiths.One of them requires Sikhs to risk their own lives to defend others against oppression—including oppression against other faiths. Sikhs are to carry a sword called a kirpan at all times to remind themselves of their commitment to help anyone who is in need. They’re not allowed using it to attack. It’s only to be used to defend oppressed people when all other means have failed.

7. A Jewish University Won’t Let Its Chapels Cast A Shadow On Each Other
Brandeis University was started as a private, Jewish institution, and to this day still has Hebrew writing on their crest. They do not, however, exclude other religions—and have one of the most remarkable ways of showing respect to other faiths.The university is home to three different chapels, one Jewish, one Catholic, and one Protestant. The three buildings are built quite close to each other, but they’re designed to be as equal as possible.All three chapels have nearly identical designs. Each one has a floor-to-ceiling window, all facing the same pond, planned so that the best view is shared by all three faiths. Most remarkably of all, though, is that the buildings were planned to make sure that no chapel would ever cast a shadow on another—symbolizing peace and e******y between the three faiths.

6. When Muslims Conquered Jerusalem, They Invited Jews To Live With Them
In 629, Jerusalem was captured by the Christian Byzantine Empire. These rulers were harsh to their Jewish subjects. They persecuted them brutally, ultimately sending them out of their ancestral home and denying them permission ever to return.That changed, though, about 10 years later—thanks to a Muslim army. The Muslims laid siege to Jerusalem, took it from the Christians, and conquered the city. When the Christians surrendered, they were still so determined to keep Jews out that they made it a condition for their surrender—but the Muslims ignored it.As soon as Jerusalem was under Muslim rule, Jews were invited back in. They were granted freedom to follow their own religion and a place on the Mount of Olives designated for Jewish prayer meetings and holiday celebrations. The relationship between Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem wasn’t perfect, and it got worse over time—but the Muslims never kicked the Jews out, and the two faiths still lived together until Jerusalem was lost in the Crusades.

5. Mormons Keep A Storehouse To Feed Needy People Of Any Faith
Mormons are prepared for anything. Members of the religion are expected to keep a three-month supply of food stockpiled at all times, just in case of an emergency—and the church does the same. The Church keeps a 50,000 square meter (500,000 ft2) warehouse ready at all times in case of a disaster.Those disasters, though, aren’t just ones that affect Mormons. The warehouse is put to use when a disaster strikes anywhere in the world. The Mormons use it to send out aid to victims in need, regardless of their faith. It’s used every day, too. Food from that warehouse and others like it are sent to 142 Mormon operations around the world that feed the hungry.

4. Sikh Gurdwaras Offer Free Meals To Members Of Every Faith
The Sikh religion employs a langar—a kitchen designed to feed hungry people in need. Free meals at langars are prepared by volunteers and are served to everyone, regardless of their race or religion.Langars only serve vegetarian food—but not because of Sikh diets. Sikhs are free to eat all the meat they want; they just know that members of other religions are not. They exclusively serve vegetarian meals so that members of every religion can partake.The biggest langar is at The Golden Temple, a Sikh shrine that serves 100,000 people every day. The temple goes through 1.5 tons of soup daily and take hundreds of millions of dollars to run, money the temple raises through donations that are put to use to help everybody.

3. The Keys To The Holiest Christian Site Are Held By A Muslim Family
The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is one of the most significant places a Christian can visit. It’s built on the place where Jesus is believed to have been crucified and entombed, making it not just a church but a site for a key moment in the religion’s history. Thousands of Catholics travel to Jerusalem just to see it, and when they do, the doors are opened by a Muslim.Since 1517, a Muslim family has held the key to the church. The family signed a contract swearing to keep it safe, and they’ve followed it ever since. Another Muslim family is tasked with opening and closing the doors, and they take the key in the morning and let the Christians in.The tradition was started to promote peace and unity between the two faiths, which have often been at war. For 500 years, these families have passed the responsibility from generation to generation, each Muslim father teaching his son his role in helping the Catholic faith.

2. Hindus Protected Sikhs When A Sikh Assassinated Indira Gandhi
In 1984, the Prime Minister of India, Indira Gandhi, was assassinated by a Sikh bodyguard. The people of India were furious. R**ts broke out, and Sikhs were d**gged from their homes and k**led. Other Hindus, though, took a stand. When the country erupted in chaos, many Hindus brought their Sikh neighbors into their homes and sheltered them.At one apartment, a mob threated to burn the whole building down if the Sikh family living inside wasn’t brought out and delivered to them—but the Hindu families there refused to do it. 200 Hindu families stood their ground and chased the mob off, saving the lives of the Sikh family within.By the end, more than 600 Sikh lives were saved by the actions of their Hindu neighbors.

1. Baha’i Temples Are Open To People Of All Religions
For all the division that exist between religions, the Baha’i (an offshoot of Islam) embraces other faiths completely and unequivocally. This “world religion” believes “all the prophets of God proclaim the same faith.”In a Baha’i house of worship, people of all religions are invited to worship their own gods. The temple is meant to bring people together rather than to encourage division, and so all prayers and forms of meditation are permitted within, without exception.Sermons and speeches are forbidden, but members of the faith can read holy texts aloud. The religion doesn’t just limit its people to reading its own scriptures, either—people in their churches read from any text their religion considers holy.
10 Ways The World’s Religions Have Sworn To Protec... (show quote)


Good post. It reinforces my belief that the biggest thing that messes up religions are "man laws".

Reply
Dec 10, 2019 18:09:46   #
debeda
 
kcstargoat wrote:
You are a long-winded fella. Too bad the majority of your lecture depended on advocates of God, Allah and Budda. Which don't exist. Men who believe in religion are either dimwitted or like to believe in fantasy and fantastical stories.


I dont know how old you are, but most, I think, having reached a certain age, dont just BELIEVE in a higher power but KNOW there is one. Because life is filled with miracles and grace.

Reply
Dec 10, 2019 18:13:53   #
debeda
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Not necessarily. Take this line from #1: "This “world religion” believes “all the prophets of God proclaim the same faith.”In a Baha’i house of worship, people of all religions are invited to worship their own gods."

Compare that statement with the following:

"4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all..." Ephesians 4:4-6

"7Jesus therefore said to them again, "Most certainly, I tell you, I am the sheep's door. 8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep didn't listen to them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters in by me, he will be saved, and will go in and go out, and will find pasture. 10The thief only comes to steal, k**l, and destroy. I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who doesn't own the sheep, sees the wolf coming, leaves the sheep, and flees. The wolf snatches the sheep, and scatters them. 13The hired hand flees because he is a hired hand, and doesn't care for the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and I'm known by my own; 15even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd. 17Therefore the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 18No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down by myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. I received this commandment from my Father." John 10:7-18

"16For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20For everyone who does evil h**es the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21But he who does the t***h comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." John 3:16-21

"13Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends, if you do wh**ever I command you." John 15:13-14

"29Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone, engraved by art and design of man. 30The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent, 31because he has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead." Acts 17:29-31

What other religion or philosophy can make these claims?

Do con-artists, thieves and robbers openly proclaim their intentions of robbing you blind, or do they come with subtlety and with deception, doing their evil under the cover of darkness?

But the one who died for our sins says there is one way to the Father and eternal life. God our Father emphasized the t***h and veracity of His only Son's words, not only by an audible voice from heaven, but by raising him from the dead.

Therefore, to extol religions that do not share this sentiment of the Son and the Father, says what about those who disbelieve, discount, neutralize and ultimately negate the testimony of God and His Only Son?
Not necessarily. Take this line from #1: "Thi... (show quote)


Tommy, those passages don't preclude anything written by CD. God loves ALL people, and is surely saddened by division. Jesus held the divine. And made it easier for people to embrace the divine. But God would never throw away people with no chance to know Jesus. Nor would Jesus, for that matter.

Reply
Dec 10, 2019 18:45:38   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
debeda wrote:
Tommy, those passages don't preclude anything written by CD. God loves ALL people, and is surely saddened by division. Jesus held the divine. And made it easier for people to embrace the divine. But God would never throw away people with no chance to know Jesus. Nor would Jesus, for that matter.


Amen...

I agree....

Reply
 
 
Dec 12, 2019 07:13:08   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
debeda wrote:
Good post. It reinforces my belief that the biggest thing that messes up religions are "man laws".



I agree completely, Debeda, that man-made laws are what mess "religion" up. "Religion" should mean our reverence of and service to God. The way I see it, man--made laws are an artificial substitute for those who want to appease their guilt without actually clearing their conscience with God.

The word for it is "humanism".

Would you agree? Or would you have another view?

So, if man made laws, which are artificial forms of service to God, are what messes up religion, because they ultimately cause division, should we Christians extol the virtues of those man-made laws for the sake of unity? Do you remember the old saying, popular during the Vietnam war era, "fighting for peace is like fornicating for virginity"?

It seems to me, the same principle applies here.

How am I wrong?

debeda wrote:
Tommy, those passages don't preclude anything written by CD. God loves ALL people, and is surely saddened by division. Jesus held the divine. And made it easier for people to embrace the divine. But God would never throw away people with no chance to know Jesus. Nor would Jesus, for that matter.


Again I agree, but this time with some qualification.

"12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 14(for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ." Romans 2:12-16

What do you think this means? It means, to me at least, that it all comes down to God's judgment according to righteousness, or lack thereof, and those who don't know the name Jesus, will be judged according to their consciences, thus God will judge righteously.

The fact that God loves ALL people, as we both know, was ultimately established in that God sent His son to reconcile all who would receive that reconciliation. But the issue is, will and do all receive that reconciliation, or do they merely give it lip service, let alone those who reject it altogether?

Please read and consider this passage, again, because, I believe, it is most applicable:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20For everyone who does evil h**es the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21But he who does the t***h comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." John 3:16-21

It seems to me, love and h**e are both clearly defined and juxtaposed here.

God, who is immortal, and cannot die, loved us enough to send His Son, who could die, to redeem us. Redeem us from what? Evil works not done in God! In other words, our humanistic (self-determined) ways in opposition to God's ways.

Jesus, who was born of the seed ("sperma" in the Greek) of David, and was made in all things like us, loved his Father, and us, us so much that he obeyed the Father unto the death of the cross to redeem us to our Father, and show us what pleases the Father- which is, laying down our "lives", consisting, in part, of our own, humanistic-based ideas of right and wrong and of submitting, or not, to God's way. But in order to do that, First, we'd have to know God's way:

"I wouldn't have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn't have known coveting, unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." Romans 7:7

Meaning, simply, it is God who defines true morals, not man-made laws or ideas or opinions.

So then, what defines love and h**e for us in light of John 3:16-21?

Is it not whether we come to the light and let our actions be wrought in God in contrast to not coming to the light because of a love of darkness?

Have you considered that maybe these other religions and false forms of Christianity encapsulate various attempts at "man-made laws"? That is the way I view them, and that is why I stand with Jesus in that he is the only way to the Father. It is precisely because all other ways are man-made.

Asked another way: Do, then, other religions, and false forms of Christianity, represent coming to the light, or do they represent hating the light and not coming to the light?

I would say, that question is overly simplistic and too "black and white". Why? Because coming to the light is actually a "way" of life, not just a mere "decision" at one spot along a path, as if there is only one fork in the road along the path of life. In fact, we are constantly faced with forks in the road. (Although some are huge, and some not at all detrimental).

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 Corinthians 13:11

"39Jesus said, "I came into this world for judgment, that those who don't see may see; and that those who see may become blind." 40Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said to him, "Are we also blind?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains." John 9:39-41

"...I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death; 11if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 NOT that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by by Christ Jesus. 13Brothers, I don't regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do. Forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, 14Ipress on toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, think this way..." Philippians 3:8-15

So then, what is the sum of what these scriptures are saying? Is it not that Christianity is a "way"? It is thus a process, a path, with many steps but only towards one direction, one goal- the Father and His righteousness!

The challenge, and the beauty, is that we all start out on this path in life from all different points on the compass. Some who are in places farther behind us, need to go through, or come out of, places we've already come through. How do we treat them? As if we weren't there ourselves at one time? As if they are destined to remain there? As if it's okay for them to stay, knowing that place is not a good place to remain?

And then there are those who should be further on, and they have turned back, or have turned to the right or left. Shall we not encourage them back on the straight and narrow? Should we be persuaded by them to follow in their folly? Do we even care?

There is a lot to be discerned and considered. What was, for me, yesterday's manna from heaven is, for me, today's poison, it having become spoiled. What is stale manna for me today, may be, someone else's today's next step, shall we reject them and not allow God to lead and feed them? You can't feed babies strong meat and expect them not to get colicky. But neither can you expect an adult to remain on mother's milk forever.

This, from what I can tell, is where other "religions" and false forms of Christianity, and their practitioners should be weighed... they are points in life that some of us traverse, but what direction, or not, is the one going, at any given point in time?

"...learn not to think beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another. 7For who makes you different? And what do you have that you didn't receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:6-7

In my mind, these other religions and false forms of Christianity encapsulate that disunity that God, (through His Son, and apostles), is leading us out of, precisely because they are so d******e as to be destructive. Look at how d******eness is destroying America! Should we then, embrace d******eness as positive or negative? Would America be better served if its motto was "E Pluribus Pluribus"'rather than "E Pluribus Unum"? L*****ts seem to think so, but not really, rather, they want to dictate what is and isn't part of the unity. So if division through d******eness is negative, and ultimately destructive, who chooses what way, out of all ways, which is the one that can bring true and lasting unity, if not God our Creator?

Thus:

"...he (God) has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

Which brings us right back to John 14:6: Jesus is "the way, the t***h and the life and no man comes to the Father except through him". Being as he is "the way to" the Father, he is also "the way out" of the destructive disunity represented by all,other "ways." So then, to justify or legitimize those other ways, as anything other than points of origin to be discarded, is to frustrate the very purpose of God, which purpose it is, of God Himself, to reconcile all unto one body in Him.

"13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, 15having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having k**led the hostility thereby." Ephesians 2:13-16

Where then, do we disagree?

Reply
Dec 12, 2019 08:59:24   #
debeda
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Again I agree, but this time with some qualification.

"12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 14(for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ." Romans 2:12-16

What do you think this means? It means, to me at least, that it all comes down to God's judgment according to righteousness, or lack thereof, and those who don't know the name Jesus, will be judged according to their consciences, thus God will judge righteously.

The fact that God loves ALL people, as we both know, was ultimately established in that God sent His son to reconcile all who would receive that reconciliation. But the issue is, will and do all receive that reconciliation, or do they merely give it lip service, let alone those who reject it altogether?

Please read and consider this passage, again, because, I believe, it is most applicable:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20For everyone who does evil h**es the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21But he who does the t***h comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." John 3:16-21

It seems to me, love and h**e are both clearly defined and juxtaposed here.

God, who is immortal, and cannot die, loved us enough to send His Son, who could die, to redeem us. Redeem us from what? Evil works not done in God! In other words, our humanistic (self-determined) ways in opposition to God's ways.

Jesus, who was born of the seed ("sperma" in the Greek) of David, and was made in all things like us, loved his Father, and us, us so much that he obeyed the Father unto the death of the cross to redeem us to our Father, and show us what pleases the Father- which is, laying down our "lives", consisting, in part, of our own, humanistic-based ideas of right and wrong and of submitting, or not, to God's way. But in order to do that, First, we'd have to know God's way:

"I wouldn't have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn't have known coveting, unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." Romans 7:7

Meaning, simply, it is God who defines true morals, not man-made laws or ideas or opinions.

So then, what defines love and h**e for us in light of John 3:16-21?

Is it not whether we come to the light and let our actions be wrought in God in contrast to not coming to the light because of a love of darkness?

Have you considered that maybe these other religions and false forms of Christianity encapsulate various attempts at "man-made laws"? That is the way I view them, and that is why I stand with Jesus in that he is the only way to the Father. It is precisely because all other ways are man-made.

Asked another way: Do, then, other religions, and false forms of Christianity, represent coming to the light, or do they represent hating the light and not coming to the light?

I would say, that question is overly simplistic and too "black and white". Why? Because coming to the light is actually a "way" of life, not just a mere "decision" at one spot along a path, as if there is only one fork in the road along the path of life. In fact, we are constantly faced with forks in the road. (Although some are huge, and some not at all detrimental).

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 Corinthians 13:11

"39Jesus said, "I came into this world for judgment, that those who don't see may see; and that those who see may become blind." 40Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said to him, "Are we also blind?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains." John 9:39-41

"...I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death; 11if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 NOT that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by by Christ Jesus. 13Brothers, I don't regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do. Forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, 14Ipress on toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, think this way..." Philippians 3:8-15

So then, what is the sum of what these scriptures are saying? Is it not that Christianity is a "way"? It is thus a process, a path, with many steps but only towards one direction, one goal- the Father and His righteousness!

The challenge, and the beauty, is that we all start out on this path in life from all different points on the compass. Some who are in places farther behind us, need to go through, or come out of, places we've already come through. How do we treat them? As if we weren't there ourselves at one time? As if they are destined to remain there? As if it's okay for them to stay, knowing that place is not a good place to remain?

And then there are those who should be further on, and they have turned back, or have turned to the right or left. Shall we not encourage them back on the straight and narrow? Should we be persuaded by them to follow in their folly? Do we even care?

There is a lot to be discerned and considered. What was, for me, yesterday's manna from heaven is, for me, today's poison, it having become spoiled. What is stale manna for me today, may be, someone else's today's next step, shall we reject them and not allow God to lead and feed them? You can't feed babies strong meat and expect them not to get colicky. But neither can you expect an adult to remain on mother's milk forever.

This, from what I can tell, is where other "religions" and false forms of Christianity, and their practitioners should be weighed... they are points in life that some of us traverse, but what direction, or not, is the one going, at any given point in time?

"...learn not to think beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another. 7For who makes you different? And what do you have that you didn't receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:6-7

In my mind, these other religions and false forms of Christianity encapsulate that disunity that God, (through His Son, and apostles), is leading us out of, precisely because they are so d******e as to be destructive. Look at how d******eness is destroying America! Should we then, embrace d******eness as positive or negative? Would America be better served if its motto was "E Pluribus Pluribus"'rather than "E Pluribus Unum"? L*****ts seem to think so, but not really, rather, they want to dictate what is and isn't part of the unity. So if division through d******eness is negative, and ultimately destructive, who chooses what way, out of all ways, which is the one that can bring true and lasting unity, if not God our Creator?

Thus:

"...he (God) has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

Which brings us right back to John 14:6: Jesus is "the way, the t***h and the life and no man comes to the Father except through him". Being as he is "the way to" the Father, he is also "the way out" of the destructive disunity represented by all,other "ways." So then, to justify or legitimize those other ways, as anything other than points of origin to be discarded, is to frustrate the very purpose of God, which purpose it is, of God Himself, to reconcile all unto one body in Him.

"13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, 15having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having k**led the hostility thereby." Ephesians 2:13-16

Where then, do we disagree?
Again I agree, but this time with some qualificati... (show quote)


Good treatise!! I dont have the time to respond in kind ( off to work) but the part where you said " becomes a law unto themselves" sums up the point I was trying to make. When humans look for power over others, they're setting themselves up as "gods". When humans make rules and rituals to "get closer to god), that's for them. I would love to expound further but have to leave. Will reply more fully later.

Reply
Dec 12, 2019 09:23:07   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
debeda wrote:
Good treatise!! I dont have the time to respond in kind ( off to work) but the part where you said " becomes a law unto themselves" sums up the point I was trying to make. When humans look for power over others, they're setting themselves up as "gods". When humans make rules and rituals to "get closer to god), that's for them. I would love to expound further but have to leave. Will reply more fully later.
Good treatise!! I dont have the time to respond in... (show quote)


—>> “ When humans look for power over others, they're setting themselves up as "gods".<<—

Amen!

Looking forward to hearing from you when you can fit it in.

Reply
Dec 16, 2019 04:19:45   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Muhammad 's supposed "Letter to the Monks of St. Catherine in Mt. Sinai" in 626 A.D., is in far too good condition to be real. In addition, it already has the dots and dashes on the Arabic alphabet letters which did not start to be used until the mid-8th century A.D., so it cannot be from the time of Muhammad, who died in 632 A.D.

The oldest known Qur'an in existence, dated to around 705 A.D. (70 years after the death of Muhammad), does not yet have dots and dashes on the letters.

Muhammad was illiterate, he could neither read or write, so did not write or sign this letter.

There is also the question how it could apply specifically to a monastery in the Sinai when Muhammad was not even alive when the Arab conquests began in that area. The conquest of Egypt occurred under the subsequent Rashidun (the first four caliphs after Muhammad's death), with 'Amr Ibn al 'As first setting out for Egypt in December of 639, whereas Muhammad had died in 632.

There is absolutely zero evidence that Muhammad ever set foot anywhere in the Sinai Peninsula, and even the conquest of the wider Levant didn't begin in earnest until after Muhammad died, as in the immediate aftermath of his death the Rashidun were bogged down by the Ridda wars, which wouldn't end until the following year. Muhammad himself never made it any further north in battle than into a tiny sliver of Jordan, and that's not clear, because the battle there took place while he was alive (the Battle of Mutah, 629 A.D.), but he didn't participate.

He drops off the military radar a bit before his death due to illness (the last battle he took place in being the Battle of Tabouk in October-December of 630), leaving Usama Bin Zayd to attempt to invade Palestine under the tutelage of Abu Bakr in May of 632 A.D.

This "expedition of Usama Bin Zayd" is listed as chronologically last on the list of expeditions of Muhammad, but as Muhammad died on June 8, 632 A.D., we can assume that he was too ill by that point to have done anything more than perhaps inspire the planning of it at the very outset.

On Friday 7 February, 634 A.D. (eight years after this letter was supposedly signed by Muhammad, there was a battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Muhammad (tayyaye d-Mhmt) in Palestine twelve miles east of Gaza.
The Romans fled, leaving behind some 4,000 poor villagers of Palestine whom the Arabs k**led there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans.
The Arabs ravaged the whole region.

If Muhammad had given a vow of protection to all followers of Jesus, the Nazarene, these Muslim soldiers were either unaware of it, or they ignored it.

This has been true through all these centuries.

Another example is when the Muslim army of the Ottoman Turks conquered the Christian center of Constantinople, in 1453 A.D., they slaughtered the Christians to the last man.



CanuckusDeploracus wrote:
10. Muhammad Vowed To Protect The Christian Nation
Saint Catherine’s Monastery has something unique: a contract promising to protect them—written by Muhammad.Muhammad held a good relationship with the monks there and in AD 626 wrote up document swearing an oath to keep them safe from his follower’s attacks. “No one shall molest them,” the founder of Islam promised. According to the document, Muslims are also not to tax the church, and they are to share crops with them whenever they have enough.

The contract goes beyond just protecting one church. In it, Muhammad promises to protect “the Christian nation” on the whole, “whosoever they may be, whether they be the noble or the vulgar.”“Whosoever of my nation shall presume to break my promise and oath,” Muhammad wrote, “destroys the promise of God.”
10. Muhammad Vowed To Protect The Christian Nation... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Dec 16, 2019 05:09:20   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
Muhammad 's supposed "Letter to the Monks of St. Catherine in Mt. Sinai" in 626 A.D., is in far too good condition to be real. In addition, it already has the dots and dashes on the Arabic alphabet letters which did not start to be used until the mid-8th century A.D., so it cannot be from the time of Muhammad, who died in 632 A.D.

The oldest known Qur'an in existence, dated to around 705 A.D. (70 years after the death of Muhammad), does not yet have dots and dashes on the letters.

Muhammad was illiterate, he could neither read or write, so did not write or sign this letter.

There is also the question how it could apply specifically to a monastery in the Sinai when Muhammad was not even alive when the Arab conquests began in that area. The conquest of Egypt occurred under the subsequent Rashidun (the first four caliphs after Muhammad's death), with 'Amr Ibn al 'As first setting out for Egypt in December of 639, whereas Muhammad had died in 632.

There is absolutely zero evidence that Muhammad ever set foot anywhere in the Sinai Peninsula, and even the conquest of the wider Levant didn't begin in earnest until after Muhammad died, as in the immediate aftermath of his death the Rashidun were bogged down by the Ridda wars, which wouldn't end until the following year. Muhammad himself never made it any further north in battle than into a tiny sliver of Jordan, and that's not clear, because the battle there took place while he was alive (the Battle of Mutah, 629 A.D.), but he didn't participate.

He drops off the military radar a bit before his death due to illness (the last battle he took place in being the Battle of Tabouk in October-December of 630), leaving Usama Bin Zayd to attempt to invade Palestine under the tutelage of Abu Bakr in May of 632 A.D.

This "expedition of Usama Bin Zayd" is listed as chronologically last on the list of expeditions of Muhammad, but as Muhammad died on June 8, 632 A.D., we can assume that he was too ill by that point to have done anything more than perhaps inspire the planning of it at the very outset.

On Friday 7 February, 634 A.D. (eight years after this letter was supposedly signed by Muhammad, there was a battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Muhammad (tayyaye d-Mhmt) in Palestine twelve miles east of Gaza.
The Romans fled, leaving behind some 4,000 poor villagers of Palestine whom the Arabs k**led there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans.
The Arabs ravaged the whole region.

If Muhammad had given a vow of protection to all followers of Jesus, the Nazarene, these Muslim soldiers were either unaware of it, or they ignored it.

This has been true through all these centuries.

Another example is when the Muslim army of the Ottoman Turks conquered the Christian center of Constantinople, in 1453 A.D., they slaughtered the Christians to the last man.
Muhammad 's supposed "Letter to the Monks of ... (show quote)


I agree... The letter is probably a f**e...

I found very little concerning it to be likely...

Still a great idea though...

And note that the monastery is still there to this day...

Reply
Dec 16, 2019 07:23:09   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
The monastery is funded by the EU... keeping them viable.


Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
I agree... The letter is probably a f**e...

I found very little concerning it to be likely...

Still a great idea though...

And note that the monastery is still there to this day...

Reply
Dec 16, 2019 09:10:29   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
The monastery is funded by the EU... keeping them viable.


For fourteen hundred years

God bless the EU🙏🙏🙏

Reply
Dec 16, 2019 10:21:09   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
I doubt if you can remember, but the EU began after WWII, around 1950. The six founding countries were Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. In 1957, the Treaty of Rome created the European Economic Community (EEC), or ‘Common Market’. etc., etc., etc.

They are funding the Monastery now, Canuckus, NOW!


Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
For fourteen hundred years

God bless the EU🙏🙏🙏

Reply
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