debeda wrote:
Good post. It reinforces my belief that the biggest thing that messes up religions are "man laws".
I agree completely, Debeda, that man-made laws are what mess "religion" up. "Religion" should mean our reverence of and service to God. The way I see it, man--made laws are an artificial substitute for those who want to appease their guilt without actually clearing their conscience with God.
The word for it is "humanism".
Would you agree? Or would you have another view?
So, if man made laws, which are artificial forms of service to God, are what messes up religion, because they ultimately cause division, should we Christians extol the virtues of those man-made laws for the sake of unity? Do you remember the old saying, popular during the Vietnam war era, "fighting for peace is like fornicating for virginity"?
It seems to me, the same principle applies here.
How am I wrong?
debeda wrote:
Tommy, those passages don't preclude anything written by CD. God loves ALL people, and is surely saddened by division. Jesus held the divine. And made it easier for people to embrace the divine. But God would never throw away people with no chance to know Jesus. Nor would Jesus, for that matter.
Again I agree, but this time with some qualification.
"12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For
it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 14(for when Gentiles who don't have the law
do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ." Romans 2:12-16
What do you think this means? It means, to me at least, that it all comes down to God's judgment according to righteousness, or lack thereof, and those who don't know the name Jesus, will be judged according to their consciences, thus God will judge righteously.
The fact that God loves ALL people, as we both know, was ultimately established in that God sent His son to reconcile all who would receive that reconciliation. But the issue is, will and do all receive that reconciliation, or do they merely give it lip service, let alone those who reject it altogether?
Please read and consider this passage, again, because, I believe, it is most applicable:
16For
God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him
should not perish, but have eternal life. 17For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but
that the world should be saved through him. 18He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19
This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20For everyone who does evil h**es the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21But he who does the t***h comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." John 3:16-21
It seems to me, love and h**e are both clearly defined and juxtaposed here.
God, who is immortal, and cannot die, loved us enough to send His Son, who could die, to redeem us. Redeem us from what? Evil works not done in God! In other words, our humanistic (self-determined) ways in opposition to God's ways.
Jesus, who was born of the seed ("sperma" in the Greek) of David, and was made in
all things like us, loved his Father, and us, us so much that he obeyed the Father unto the death of the cross to redeem us to our Father, and show us what pleases the Father- which is, laying down our "lives", consisting, in part, of our own, humanistic-based ideas of right and wrong and of submitting, or not, to God's way. But in order to do that, First, we'd have to know God's way:
"I wouldn't have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn't have known coveting, unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." Romans 7:7
Meaning, simply, it is God who defines true morals, not man-made laws or ideas or opinions.
So then, what defines love and h**e for us in light of John 3:16-21?
Is it not whether we come to the light and let our actions be wrought in God in contrast to not coming to the light because of a love of darkness?
Have you considered that maybe these other religions and false forms of Christianity encapsulate various attempts at "man-made laws"? That is the way I view them, and that is why I stand with Jesus in that he is the only way to the Father. It is precisely because all other ways are man-made.
Asked another way: Do, then, other religions, and false forms of Christianity, represent coming to the light, or do they represent hating the light and not coming to the light?
I would say, that question is overly simplistic and too "black and white". Why? Because coming to the light is actually a "way" of life, not just a mere "decision" at one spot along a path, as if there is only one fork in the road along the path of life. In fact, we are constantly faced with forks in the road. (Although some are huge, and some not at all detrimental).
"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 Corinthians 13:11
"39Jesus said, "
I came into this world for judgment, that those who don't see may see; and that those who see may become blind." 40Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said to him, "Are we also blind?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin;
but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains." John 9:39-41
"...I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse,
that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him,
not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death; 11if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12
NOT that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by by Christ Jesus. 13Brothers,
I don't regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do. Forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, 14
Ipress on toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, think this way..." Philippians 3:8-15
So then, what is the sum of what these scriptures are saying? Is it not that Christianity is a "way"? It is thus a process, a path, with many steps but only towards one direction, one goal- the Father and His righteousness!
The challenge, and the beauty, is that we all start out on this path in life from all different points on the compass. Some who are in places farther behind us, need to go through, or come out of, places we've already come through. How do we treat them? As if we weren't there ourselves at one time? As if they are destined to remain there? As if it's okay for them to stay, knowing that place is not a good place to remain?
And then there are those who should be further on, and they have turned back, or have turned to the right or left. Shall we not encourage them back on the straight and narrow? Should we be persuaded by them to follow in their folly? Do we even care?
There is a lot to be discerned and considered. What was, for me, yesterday's manna from heaven is, for me, today's poison, it having become spoiled. What is stale manna for me today, may be, someone else's today's next step, shall we reject them and not allow God to lead and feed them? You can't feed babies strong meat and expect them not to get colicky. But neither can you expect an adult to remain on mother's milk forever.
This, from what I can tell, is where other "religions" and false forms of Christianity, and their practitioners should be weighed... they are points in life that some of us traverse, but what direction, or not, is the one going, at any given point in time?
"...
learn not to think beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another. 7For
who makes you different? And what do you have that you didn't receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:6-7
In my mind, these
other religions and false forms of Christianity encapsulate that disunity that God, (through His Son, and apostles), is leading us out of, precisely because they are so d******e as to be destructive. Look at how d******eness is destroying America! Should we then, embrace d******eness as positive or negative? Would America be better served if its motto was "E Pluribus Pluribus"'rather than "E Pluribus Unum"? L*****ts seem to think so, but not really, rather, they want to dictate what is and isn't part of the unity. So if division through d******eness is negative, and ultimately destructive, who chooses what way, out of all ways, which is the one that can bring true and lasting unity, if not God our Creator?
Thus:
"...he (God) has appointed a day in which
he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31
Which brings us right back to John 14:6: Jesus is "the way, the t***h and the life and no man comes to the Father except through him".
Being as he is "the way to" the Father, he is also "the way out" of the destructive disunity represented by all,other "ways." So then, to justify or legitimize those other ways, as anything other than points of origin to be discarded, is to frustrate the very purpose of God, which purpose it is, of God Himself, to reconcile all unto one body in Him.
"13But now
in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, 15having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,
that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having k**led the hostility thereby." Ephesians 2:13-16
Where then, do we disagree?