Trump Signs Hong Kong Bill Backing Protesters, Angering China: score another for the president
Dec 1, 2019 11:50:23 #
(Bloomberg) -- Donald Trump signed legislation expressing U.S. support for Hong Kong protesters, prompting China to threaten retaliation just as the two nations get close to signing a phase one trade deal.
China summoned U.S. Ambassador Terry Branstad, with Vice Foreign Minister Le Yucheng telling him to stop meddling in Hong Kong affairs. He warned that such actions would strain ties and risk affecting “cooperation in important areas,” according to a foreign ministry statement, which didn’t give more details. Earlier, the foreign ministry reiterated threats of retaliation with no specifics.
Hu Xijin, the editor-in-chief of state-run Global Times, said later Thursday in a tweet that China was considering putting the drafters of the law on a no-entry list.
The bill requires annual reviews of Hong Kong’s special trade status under American law, as well as sanctions against any officials deemed responsible for human rights abuses or undermining the city’s autonomy. A second Hong Kong measure also bans the export of crowd-control items such as tear gas and rubber bullets to the city’s police.
While signing the bills, Trump signaled that he didn’t want the broader relationship with China to veer off track. He expressed concerns with unspecified portions of the new law, saying they risked interfering with his constitutional authority to carry out American foreign policy.
“I signed these bills out of respect for President Xi, China, and the people of Hong Kong,” the president said in a statement Wednesday. “They are being enacted in the hope that leaders and representatives of China and Hong Kong will be able to amicably settle their differences leading to long term peace and prosperity for all.”
Asian stocks were mixed and U.S. futures slid after Trump signed the bill, while the yen nudged higher and the yuan lower. Hong Kong shares were among the worst performers, though declines were still modest at the open.
Investors are looking for any sign that measure will prevent the world’s biggest economies from reaching a deal that could deescalate a trade war that’s d**gged on for 20 months. Trump on Tuesday said the two sides were in the “final throes” of a deal that would start to unwind tariffs on about $500 billion in products traded between them.
Trump would like the agreement finished in order to ease economic uncertainty for his re-e******n campaign in 2020, and he has floated the possibility of signing the deal in a farm state as an acknowledgment of the constituency that’s borne the brunt of retaliatory Chinese tariffs. China is also looking to avoid further damage to an economy growing at the slowest pace in decades.
‘Xi Wants a Deal’
China is irked that the bill will bolster Hong Kong protesters who have become increasingly violent in their bid to secure demands including an independent inquiry into police abuses and meaningful e******ns, but it probably won’t affect trade talks much, said David Zweig, an emeritus professor at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology and director of T***snational China Consulting Ltd.
“This is not a fundamental challenge to U.S.-China trade negotiations,” he said. “It’s another notch in U.S.-China hostility, it’s Congress being more assertive than usual, but I think it will be a short-term response, not even a medium-term response. Xi wants a deal, I think.”
Hong Kong’s protesters cheered the bill’s passage, and plan to rally in the central financial district on Thursday evening. Joshua Wong, one of the most high-profile activists, lauded Trump for signing it into law and also called on police to retreat from Hong Kong Polytechnic University, where a few demonstrators are left after a nearly two-week siege. Police have said they aren’t sending in officers in r**t gear.
Trump had little choice but to sign the bill: The House cleared it 417-1 on Nov. 20 after the Senate passed it without opposition, majorities that would allow lawmakers to override any veto by the president.
Senator Marco Rubio, a Florida Republican, said the law, S. 1838, would give the U.S. “meaningful tools to deter further influence and interference from Beijing into Hong Kong’s internal affairs.” Speaker Nancy Pelosi said it was crucial for the U.S. to speak up.
“If America does not speak out for human rights in China because of commercial interests, we lose all moral authority to speak out elsewhere,” she said in a statement.
“In an overwhelming display of bipartisan unity, Congress passed our Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, and I applaud President Trump for signing this critical legislation into law,” Rubio said in a statement. “I look forward to continuing to work with the administration to implement this law.”
While many members of Congress in both parties had voiced strong support for the protesters who are demanding greater autonomy for the city, Trump stayed largely silent, even as the demonstrations have been met by rising police violence.
Last week, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, called on the president to speak out, saying that “the world should hear from him directly that the United States stands with” the protesters.
China’s foreign ministry had repeatedly urged Trump to prevent the legislation from becoming law, warning the Americans not to underestimate China’s determination to defend its “sovereignty, security and development interests.” Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Zheng Zeguang summoned the U.S. ambassador, Terry Branstad, on Monday to express “strong opposition” to what the country’s government considers American interference in the protests, including the legislation, according to statement.
Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang dodged questions on whether trade talks would be affected as he briefed reporters in Beijing Thursday afternoon. “We strongly urge the U.S. to refrain from implementing this law, or it will undermine our bilateral relations and cooperation in important areas,” he said in response to a question on how the bill’s signing would impact the negotiations.
“Regarding specific countermeasures, I suggest you follow up on this issue,” he said. “You’d better stay tuned. What will come will come.”
U.S. and Chinese trade negotiators will continue communicating closely and work toward a phase one deal, Ministry of Commerce spokesman Gao Feng said at a briefing in Beijing on Thursday.
Before a speech at the Bloomberg New Economy Forum in Beijing last week, China’s Vice Premier Liu He -- the country’s chief trade negotiator -- said that he was “cautiously optimistic” about reaching the phase one accord, according to people who attended a dinner and asked not to be identified.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-signs-hong-kong-bill-230350928.html
China summoned U.S. Ambassador Terry Branstad, with Vice Foreign Minister Le Yucheng telling him to stop meddling in Hong Kong affairs. He warned that such actions would strain ties and risk affecting “cooperation in important areas,” according to a foreign ministry statement, which didn’t give more details. Earlier, the foreign ministry reiterated threats of retaliation with no specifics.
Hu Xijin, the editor-in-chief of state-run Global Times, said later Thursday in a tweet that China was considering putting the drafters of the law on a no-entry list.
The bill requires annual reviews of Hong Kong’s special trade status under American law, as well as sanctions against any officials deemed responsible for human rights abuses or undermining the city’s autonomy. A second Hong Kong measure also bans the export of crowd-control items such as tear gas and rubber bullets to the city’s police.
While signing the bills, Trump signaled that he didn’t want the broader relationship with China to veer off track. He expressed concerns with unspecified portions of the new law, saying they risked interfering with his constitutional authority to carry out American foreign policy.
“I signed these bills out of respect for President Xi, China, and the people of Hong Kong,” the president said in a statement Wednesday. “They are being enacted in the hope that leaders and representatives of China and Hong Kong will be able to amicably settle their differences leading to long term peace and prosperity for all.”
Asian stocks were mixed and U.S. futures slid after Trump signed the bill, while the yen nudged higher and the yuan lower. Hong Kong shares were among the worst performers, though declines were still modest at the open.
Investors are looking for any sign that measure will prevent the world’s biggest economies from reaching a deal that could deescalate a trade war that’s d**gged on for 20 months. Trump on Tuesday said the two sides were in the “final throes” of a deal that would start to unwind tariffs on about $500 billion in products traded between them.
Trump would like the agreement finished in order to ease economic uncertainty for his re-e******n campaign in 2020, and he has floated the possibility of signing the deal in a farm state as an acknowledgment of the constituency that’s borne the brunt of retaliatory Chinese tariffs. China is also looking to avoid further damage to an economy growing at the slowest pace in decades.
‘Xi Wants a Deal’
China is irked that the bill will bolster Hong Kong protesters who have become increasingly violent in their bid to secure demands including an independent inquiry into police abuses and meaningful e******ns, but it probably won’t affect trade talks much, said David Zweig, an emeritus professor at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology and director of T***snational China Consulting Ltd.
“This is not a fundamental challenge to U.S.-China trade negotiations,” he said. “It’s another notch in U.S.-China hostility, it’s Congress being more assertive than usual, but I think it will be a short-term response, not even a medium-term response. Xi wants a deal, I think.”
Hong Kong’s protesters cheered the bill’s passage, and plan to rally in the central financial district on Thursday evening. Joshua Wong, one of the most high-profile activists, lauded Trump for signing it into law and also called on police to retreat from Hong Kong Polytechnic University, where a few demonstrators are left after a nearly two-week siege. Police have said they aren’t sending in officers in r**t gear.
Trump had little choice but to sign the bill: The House cleared it 417-1 on Nov. 20 after the Senate passed it without opposition, majorities that would allow lawmakers to override any veto by the president.
Senator Marco Rubio, a Florida Republican, said the law, S. 1838, would give the U.S. “meaningful tools to deter further influence and interference from Beijing into Hong Kong’s internal affairs.” Speaker Nancy Pelosi said it was crucial for the U.S. to speak up.
“If America does not speak out for human rights in China because of commercial interests, we lose all moral authority to speak out elsewhere,” she said in a statement.
“In an overwhelming display of bipartisan unity, Congress passed our Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, and I applaud President Trump for signing this critical legislation into law,” Rubio said in a statement. “I look forward to continuing to work with the administration to implement this law.”
While many members of Congress in both parties had voiced strong support for the protesters who are demanding greater autonomy for the city, Trump stayed largely silent, even as the demonstrations have been met by rising police violence.
Last week, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, called on the president to speak out, saying that “the world should hear from him directly that the United States stands with” the protesters.
China’s foreign ministry had repeatedly urged Trump to prevent the legislation from becoming law, warning the Americans not to underestimate China’s determination to defend its “sovereignty, security and development interests.” Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Zheng Zeguang summoned the U.S. ambassador, Terry Branstad, on Monday to express “strong opposition” to what the country’s government considers American interference in the protests, including the legislation, according to statement.
Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang dodged questions on whether trade talks would be affected as he briefed reporters in Beijing Thursday afternoon. “We strongly urge the U.S. to refrain from implementing this law, or it will undermine our bilateral relations and cooperation in important areas,” he said in response to a question on how the bill’s signing would impact the negotiations.
“Regarding specific countermeasures, I suggest you follow up on this issue,” he said. “You’d better stay tuned. What will come will come.”
U.S. and Chinese trade negotiators will continue communicating closely and work toward a phase one deal, Ministry of Commerce spokesman Gao Feng said at a briefing in Beijing on Thursday.
Before a speech at the Bloomberg New Economy Forum in Beijing last week, China’s Vice Premier Liu He -- the country’s chief trade negotiator -- said that he was “cautiously optimistic” about reaching the phase one accord, according to people who attended a dinner and asked not to be identified.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-signs-hong-kong-bill-230350928.html
Dec 1, 2019 12:26:52 #
I Don't Believe This Is A Grass Roots Movement
I Don't Know Who Fomented It
But I Believe It Was Designed To Draw The US In Against China
Will We Ultimately Have A Confrontation With China
Iran Is Having Protests Too
I Don't Know Who Fomented It
But I Believe It Was Designed To Draw The US In Against China
Will We Ultimately Have A Confrontation With China
Iran Is Having Protests Too
Dec 1, 2019 12:42:04 #
karpenter wrote:
I Don't Believe This Is A Grass Roots Movement
I Don't Know Who Fomented It
But I Believe It Was Designed To Draw The US In Against China
Will We Ultimately Have A Confrontation With China
Iran Is Having Protests Too
I Don't Know Who Fomented It
But I Believe It Was Designed To Draw The US In Against China
Will We Ultimately Have A Confrontation With China
Iran Is Having Protests Too
I hesitated to give Trump a score on Hong Kong exactly for your concerns. However, to take such a stance for freedom on the world's stage and against a power like China, is American. Brave.
Dec 1, 2019 12:45:13 #
karpenter wrote:
I Don't Believe This Is A Grass Roots Movement
I Don't Know Who Fomented It
But I Believe It Was Designed To Draw The US In Against China
Will We Ultimately Have A Confrontation With China
Iran Is Having Protests Too
I Don't Know Who Fomented It
But I Believe It Was Designed To Draw The US In Against China
Will We Ultimately Have A Confrontation With China
Iran Is Having Protests Too
Dec 1, 2019 12:48:31 #
rumitoid wrote:
I hesitated to give Trump a score on Hong Kong exactly for your concerns. However, to take such a stance for freedom on the world's stage and against a power like China, is American. Brave.
Hypocrisy is what it is...
Supporting r****rs and thugs...
Babbling about human rights while the US occupies foreign soil...
Hard to imagine what the US reaction would be if China passed a similar law concerning Separatists in the US...
Dec 1, 2019 12:50:52 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Hypocrisy is what it is...
Supporting r****rs and thugs...
Babbling about human rights while the US occupies foreign soil...
Hard to imagine what the US reaction would be if China passed a similar law concerning Separatists in the US...
Supporting r****rs and thugs...
Babbling about human rights while the US occupies foreign soil...
Hard to imagine what the US reaction would be if China passed a similar law concerning Separatists in the US...
Really? That's your opinion on the Hong Kong protests. If you think that I need to do more research.
Dec 1, 2019 13:02:23 #
rumitoid wrote:
Really? That's your opinion on the Hong Kong protests. If you think that I need to do more research.
I supported them before the violence...
And was disgusted when the law was removed from the v**e and yet the violence continued...
I am happy that the violence has died down some after the e******ns...
But Hongkong will be a long time in recovering...
I will not support random violence for faix political issues...
Most of the protesters who resorted to violence were young and apparently unaware of their countries political system...
Victims of fear mongering and ignorance...
Dec 2, 2019 00:48:39 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Hypocrisy is what it is...
Supporting r****rs and thugs...
Babbling about human rights while the US occupies foreign soil...
Hard to imagine what the US reaction would be if China passed a similar law concerning Separatists in the US...
Supporting r****rs and thugs...
Babbling about human rights while the US occupies foreign soil...
Hard to imagine what the US reaction would be if China passed a similar law concerning Separatists in the US...
R**ting and thuggery are not to be condoned here but China is on record for trying to export its iron fisted authoritarian rule.
China can say little about western democracies while they shore up one of the last bastions of Marxist f*****t rule. At least I can say and write political criticism of the government here. My personal safety and my organs would not be guaranteed if I said this in China.
Dec 2, 2019 00:51:26 #
eden wrote:
R**ting and thuggery are not to be condoned here but China is on record for trying to export its iron fisted authoritarian rule.
China can say little about western democracies while they shore up one of the last bastions of Marxist f*****t rule. At least I can say and write political criticism of the government here. My personal safety and my organs would not be guaranteed if I said this in China.
China can say little about western democracies while they shore up one of the last bastions of Marxist f*****t rule. At least I can say and write political criticism of the government here. My personal safety and my organs would not be guaranteed if I said this in China.
Both your safety and your organs would be fine...
You might be deported...
A Chinese citizen might be arrested...
On record where?
Dec 2, 2019 02:36:19 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Both your safety and your organs would be fine...
You might be deported...
A Chinese citizen might be arrested...
On record where?
You might be deported...
A Chinese citizen might be arrested...
On record where?
As far as the west is concerned there should be only one China....Democratic Taiwan.
I understand you live in China which would explain your careful defenses of the indefensible. China is trying to strong-arm tiny Pacific Island nations into shedding their recognition of Taiwan in return for developmental loans (dare I say quid pro quo).
As for the nine dash line fantasy,
this would be tantamount to the US claiming the entire Pacific on the basis of the Hawaii-Guam-Samoa triangle. The Chinese people are proud, resilient and ingenious and they deserve better than this loss of international respect as a result of seaborne thuggery and denial of personal rights and freedoms via an archaic Marxist f*****t cabal whose primary governing tool is fear.
I seldom agree with the policies of Donald Trump and his overweight-golfer-in-a-china -shop diplomacy but on this I am squarely behind him and I am gratified that even the cranky Democrats have v**ed for a show of support for the democracy protesters in HK.
I don’t support the reckless idea of revolutions, especially in a country the size of China but the rest of the world can and should encourage progress towards democracy by censure of its violations of international norms
and appropriate sanctions on trade and commerce.
If you cannot reply to this I will understand.
Dec 2, 2019 03:17:05 #
eden wrote:
As far as the west is concerned there should be only one China....Democratic Taiwan.
And yet they recognize the CCP as the legitimate government of China and Taiwan as a part of China...
Quote:
I understand you live in China which would explain your careful defenses of the indefensible.
I can assure you that my residency plays no part in my beliefs... I held similar beliefs as a young man in Canada...
Quote:
China is trying to strong-arm tiny Pacific Island nations into shedding their recognition of Taiwan in return for developmental loans (dare I say quid pro quo).
Absolutely... Unlike America, which would never ask for anything in return for aid (massive sarcasm)
Quote:
As for the nine dash line fantasy,
this would be tantamount to the US claiming the entire Pacific on the basis of the Hawaii-Guam-Samoa triangle.
this would be tantamount to the US claiming the entire Pacific on the basis of the Hawaii-Guam-Samoa triangle.
Are you unfamiliar with the area?
There are dozens of islands... All within a small area....
The comparison makes no sense..
Not to mention that there are some dozen nations that lay contesting claims to various islands... Don't be angry because China has been successful at pushing its claim...
Quote:
The Chinese people are proud, resilient and ingenious and they deserve better than this loss of international respect as a result of seaborne thuggery and denial of personal rights and freedoms via an archaic Marxist f*****t cabal whose primary governing tool is fear.
I agree concerning the Chinese being proud, resilient and ingenious...
Try to remember that their government cones from them...
As for a loss of international respect... Wouldn't point fingers...
From Africa to the ME...
South America to Southeast Asia...
More nations are growing in respect of China, even as they lose more and more respect for America and the West...
Quote:
I seldom agree with the policies of Donald Trump and his overweight-golfer-in-a-china -shop diplomacy but on this I am squarely behind him and I am gratified that even the cranky Democrats have v**ed for a show of support for the democracy protesters in HK.
Which yet again demonstrates that you are unaware of what is actually going on in Hongkong.. .
Would you care to explain this time what the mainland has done to threaten the demoxracy of Hongkong?
Quote:
I don’t support the reckless idea of revolutions, especially in a country the size of China but the rest of the world can and should encourage progress towards democracy by censure of its violations of international norms
and appropriate sanctions on trade and commerce.
and appropriate sanctions on trade and commerce.
You may feel heroic pushing your ideology on others... But I am more than willing to allow the rest of the world to govern itself...
China will continue to progress (and pursue its own political ideology) while America is free to do the same...
Try to limit your actions to your own nation....
Quote:
If you cannot reply to this I will understand.
This was an i***tic end to a very decent post...
And demonstrates that you truly have no understanding of China or its policies....
I will overlook it and hope that we can continue this most delightful dialogue
Dec 2, 2019 10:02:01 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Hypocrisy is what it is...
Supporting r****rs and thugs...
Babbling about human rights while the US occupies foreign soil...
Hard to imagine what the US reaction would be if China passed a similar law concerning Separatists in the US...
Supporting r****rs and thugs...
Babbling about human rights while the US occupies foreign soil...
Hard to imagine what the US reaction would be if China passed a similar law concerning Separatists in the US...
Dec 4, 2019 05:26:10 #
My responses in brackets...
eden wrote:
As far as the west is concerned there should be only one China....Democratic Taiwan.
And yet they recognize the CCP as the legitimate government of China and Taiwan as a part of China...
[(That is narrow and self serving. In fact the US and most of the western alliance have agreed to a carefully worded definition of the One China policy that also maintains unofficial relations with Taiwan. This is a face saving device in order to preserve stability in the Taiwan Strait but it is clear that the PRC is edging towards a reckless invasion of Taiwan in order to realize their dream of ending Taiwanese independence and “defiance”.)
Quote:
I understand you live in China which would explain your careful defenses of the indefensible.
I can assure you that my residency plays no part in my beliefs... I held similar beliefs as a young man in Canada...
(I am not assured. Looking at some of your previous posts you are waiking on eggshells here.)
Quote:
China is trying to strong-arm tiny Pacific Island nations into shedding their recognition of Taiwan in return for developmental loans (dare I say quid pro quo).
Absolutely... Unlike America, which would never ask for anything in return for aid (massive sarcasm)
( In this context you have a valid point...to a point. Trump withheld aid approved by Congress in order to get dirt on a potential political opponent. A low life stunt which we should be accustomed to by now but in his defense he did not try to get Ukraine to withdraw recognition of a third country as a precursor to invasion and annexation by force.)
Quote:
As for the nine dash line fantasy,
this would be tantamount to the US claiming the entire Pacific on the basis of the Hawaii-Guam-Samoa triangle.
Are you unfamiliar with the area?
There are dozens of islands... All within a small area....
The comparison makes no sense..
(I am very familiar with the Pacific since I live in Hawaii and have travelled and lived in other parts of this ocean. The South Asian Sea that China is claiming is thousands of miles from the Chinese mainland and overlaps in some cases legitimate territorial boundaries of other nations. )
Not to mention that there are some dozen nations that lay contesting claims to various islands... Don't be angry because China has been successful at pushing its claim...
(The International Court in The Hague rejected the Chinese Claim as without merit or conformity with international norms. I suppose you could argue that a bully that takes everybody’s lunch money through thuggery and intimidation is successful too....)
Quote:
The Chinese people are proud, resilient and ingenious and they deserve better than this loss of international respect as a result of seaborne thuggery and denial of personal rights and freedoms via an archaic Marxist f*****t cabal whose primary governing tool is fear.
I agree concerning the Chinese being proud, resilient and ingenious...
Try to remember that their government cones from them...
( I disagree. Absent a democratic e******n cycle the Chinese Government is a hegemonous cabal imposed on its people and ruthlessly controls the population with a network of informers and secret police. Serial dissenters are known to simply disappear overnight and never heard of again.)
As for a loss of international respect... Wouldn't point fingers...
From Africa to the ME...
South America to Southeast Asia...
More nations are growing in respect of China, even as they lose more and more respect for America and the West...
(Clearly you do not have a grasp on international news or current affairs. There is a wave of anti-Beijing sentiment in the region and in Europe as well as the US, all as a result of perceived Chinese dirty tricks, theft of intellectual property, predatory loans to small vulnerable countries and an attempt at infiltration of the Government in Australia. On balance China is increasingly viewed with suspicion, not respect. Your statement sounds like a handout from the Chinese Government. A loss of respect for Trump and his blundering antics on the international stage is a separate issue of the core western values enumerated by the Foreign service personnel who testified at the recent impeachment hearing. The standards of impartial professionalism on display are the face of the real silent majority in an increasingly bitter partisan world.)
Quote:
I seldom agree with the policies of Donald Trump and his overweight-golfer-in-a-china -shop diplomacy but on this I am squarely behind him and I am gratified that even the cranky Democrats have v**ed for a show of support for the democracy protesters in HK.
Which yet again demonstrates that you are unaware of what is actually going on in Hongkong.. .
(I was in HK recently and have friends there. HK is a major conduit for banking, trade and finance with other countries and squelching of the relative freedoms that HK residents have enjoyed since the handover is a net loss for Beijing and will go down in history as a spectacular blunder at every level. Violence and vandalism cannot be condoned but mischief is now afoot and the genie is out of the bottle as demonstrated by the recent local e******n landslide.)
Would you care to explain this time what the mainland has done to threaten the demoxracy of Hongkong?
Quote:
I don’t support the reckless idea of revolutions, especially in a country the size of China but the rest of the world can and should encourage progress towards democracy by censure of its violations of international norms
and appropriate sanctions on trade and commerce.
You may feel heroic pushing your ideology on others... But I am more than willing to allow the rest of the world to govern itself...
China will continue to progress (and pursue its own political ideology) while America is free to do the same...
Try to limit your actions to your own nation....
(I have no ideology to push. I have confidence the Chinese and North Korean people will eventually find their own style of emancipation given the arc of history. That does not mean we in the west are to be denied our voice when we perceive perfidy and fear based controls on human aspirations.
No “action” has been taken. Try not to limit your thinking to authoritarianism.)
Quote:
If you cannot reply to this I will understand.
This was an i***tic end to a very decent post...
And demonstrates that you truly have no understanding of China or its policies....
I will overlook it and hope that we can continue this most delightful dialogue
(How frightfully decent of you to overlook my idiocy.)
Canuckus Deploracus
| Reply | Quote Reply | Report Issue
eden wrote:
As far as the west is concerned there should be only one China....Democratic Taiwan.
And yet they recognize the CCP as the legitimate government of China and Taiwan as a part of China...
[(That is narrow and self serving. In fact the US and most of the western alliance have agreed to a carefully worded definition of the One China policy that also maintains unofficial relations with Taiwan. This is a face saving device in order to preserve stability in the Taiwan Strait but it is clear that the PRC is edging towards a reckless invasion of Taiwan in order to realize their dream of ending Taiwanese independence and “defiance”.)
Quote:
I understand you live in China which would explain your careful defenses of the indefensible.
I can assure you that my residency plays no part in my beliefs... I held similar beliefs as a young man in Canada...
(I am not assured. Looking at some of your previous posts you are waiking on eggshells here.)
Quote:
China is trying to strong-arm tiny Pacific Island nations into shedding their recognition of Taiwan in return for developmental loans (dare I say quid pro quo).
Absolutely... Unlike America, which would never ask for anything in return for aid (massive sarcasm)
( In this context you have a valid point...to a point. Trump withheld aid approved by Congress in order to get dirt on a potential political opponent. A low life stunt which we should be accustomed to by now but in his defense he did not try to get Ukraine to withdraw recognition of a third country as a precursor to invasion and annexation by force.)
Quote:
As for the nine dash line fantasy,
this would be tantamount to the US claiming the entire Pacific on the basis of the Hawaii-Guam-Samoa triangle.
Are you unfamiliar with the area?
There are dozens of islands... All within a small area....
The comparison makes no sense..
(I am very familiar with the Pacific since I live in Hawaii and have travelled and lived in other parts of this ocean. The South Asian Sea that China is claiming is thousands of miles from the Chinese mainland and overlaps in some cases legitimate territorial boundaries of other nations. )
Not to mention that there are some dozen nations that lay contesting claims to various islands... Don't be angry because China has been successful at pushing its claim...
(The International Court in The Hague rejected the Chinese Claim as without merit or conformity with international norms. I suppose you could argue that a bully that takes everybody’s lunch money through thuggery and intimidation is successful too....)
Quote:
The Chinese people are proud, resilient and ingenious and they deserve better than this loss of international respect as a result of seaborne thuggery and denial of personal rights and freedoms via an archaic Marxist f*****t cabal whose primary governing tool is fear.
I agree concerning the Chinese being proud, resilient and ingenious...
Try to remember that their government cones from them...
( I disagree. Absent a democratic e******n cycle the Chinese Government is a hegemonous cabal imposed on its people and ruthlessly controls the population with a network of informers and secret police. Serial dissenters are known to simply disappear overnight and never heard of again.)
As for a loss of international respect... Wouldn't point fingers...
From Africa to the ME...
South America to Southeast Asia...
More nations are growing in respect of China, even as they lose more and more respect for America and the West...
(Clearly you do not have a grasp on international news or current affairs. There is a wave of anti-Beijing sentiment in the region and in Europe as well as the US, all as a result of perceived Chinese dirty tricks, theft of intellectual property, predatory loans to small vulnerable countries and an attempt at infiltration of the Government in Australia. On balance China is increasingly viewed with suspicion, not respect. Your statement sounds like a handout from the Chinese Government. A loss of respect for Trump and his blundering antics on the international stage is a separate issue of the core western values enumerated by the Foreign service personnel who testified at the recent impeachment hearing. The standards of impartial professionalism on display are the face of the real silent majority in an increasingly bitter partisan world.)
Quote:
I seldom agree with the policies of Donald Trump and his overweight-golfer-in-a-china -shop diplomacy but on this I am squarely behind him and I am gratified that even the cranky Democrats have v**ed for a show of support for the democracy protesters in HK.
Which yet again demonstrates that you are unaware of what is actually going on in Hongkong.. .
(I was in HK recently and have friends there. HK is a major conduit for banking, trade and finance with other countries and squelching of the relative freedoms that HK residents have enjoyed since the handover is a net loss for Beijing and will go down in history as a spectacular blunder at every level. Violence and vandalism cannot be condoned but mischief is now afoot and the genie is out of the bottle as demonstrated by the recent local e******n landslide.)
Would you care to explain this time what the mainland has done to threaten the demoxracy of Hongkong?
Quote:
I don’t support the reckless idea of revolutions, especially in a country the size of China but the rest of the world can and should encourage progress towards democracy by censure of its violations of international norms
and appropriate sanctions on trade and commerce.
You may feel heroic pushing your ideology on others... But I am more than willing to allow the rest of the world to govern itself...
China will continue to progress (and pursue its own political ideology) while America is free to do the same...
Try to limit your actions to your own nation....
(I have no ideology to push. I have confidence the Chinese and North Korean people will eventually find their own style of emancipation given the arc of history. That does not mean we in the west are to be denied our voice when we perceive perfidy and fear based controls on human aspirations.
No “action” has been taken. Try not to limit your thinking to authoritarianism.)
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If you cannot reply to this I will understand.
This was an i***tic end to a very decent post...
And demonstrates that you truly have no understanding of China or its policies....
I will overlook it and hope that we can continue this most delightful dialogue
(How frightfully decent of you to overlook my idiocy.)
Canuckus Deploracus
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Dec 4, 2019 07:06:44 #
eden wrote:
That is narrow and self serving. In fact the US and most of the western alliance have agreed to a carefully worded definition of the One China policy that also maintains unofficial relations with Taiwan. This is a face saving device in order to preserve stability in the Taiwan Strait but it is clear that the PRC is edging towards a reckless invasion of Taiwan in order to realize their dream of ending Taiwanese independence and “defiance”.)
That is narrow and self serving. In fact the US and most of the western alliance have agreed to a carefully worded definition of the One China policy that also maintains unofficial relations with Taiwan. This is a face saving device in order to preserve stability in the Taiwan Strait but it is clear that the PRC is edging towards a reckless invasion of Taiwan in order to realize their dream of ending Taiwanese independence and “defiance”.)
Clear from what exactly?
Why do you did get everytime I ask what you're basing your claims on?
Just give an example... What sign is there that China is "edging towards a reckless invasion of Taiwan in order to realize their dream of ending Taiwanese independence and “defiance”."???
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I am not assured. Looking at some of your previous posts you are waiking on eggshells here.)
Each of my posts demonstrates the beliefs that I have come to over the years... I rarely censor my opinion or give thought to "eggshells"
Dare I ask for an example of what your pointing at?
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( In this context you have a valid point...to a point. Trump withheld aid approved by Congress in order to get dirt on a potential political opponent. A low life stunt which we should be accustomed to by now but in his defense he did not try to get Ukraine to withdraw recognition of a third country as a precursor to invasion and annexation by force.)
Not what I was talking about... How many times has the US offered potential aid in return for certain concessions?
You believe that China cares what a bunch of third world nations have to say if it ever decides to annex Taiwan?
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(I am very familiar with the Pacific since I live in Hawaii and have travelled and lived in other parts of this ocean. The South Asian Sea that China is claiming is thousands of miles from the Chinese mainland and overlaps in some cases legitimate territorial boundaries of other nations. )
Great statement...
How close is Hawaii to the US mainland?
And how was it acquired?
I agree that there are numerous claims to the areas... China's is one of them... Proximity doesn't necessarily give right to ownership...
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(The International Court in The Hague rejected the Chinese Claim as without merit or conformity with international norms. I suppose you could argue that a bully that takes everybody’s lunch money through thuggery and intimidation is successful too....)
As I recall that was to a single island disputed with the Philippines... Might have been a group..
Do you believe that the US would accept such a ruling if it went against you?
Help me out here.... Did America have support for its incasions of Afghanistan and Iraq? (These being the most recent examples)
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I disagree. Absent a democratic e******n cycle the Chinese Government is a hegemonous cabal imposed on its people and ruthlessly controls the population with a network of informers and secret police. Serial dissenters are known to simply disappear overnight and never heard of again.)
Sorry... That second part made me laugh... Informers and secret police...
We were out last night and discussing how much safer we felt in China... (we being four americans, three africans, and myself... The American were from Washington, Ohio and New York)...
Government has rules... But so does every Nation...
When you use terms like this "hegemonous cabal imposed on its people" it becomes obvious that you have never travelled to or spent time with The people of China..
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(Clearly you do not have a grasp on international news or current affairs. There is a wave of anti-Beijing sentiment in the region and in Europe as well as the US, all as a result of perceived Chinese dirty tricks, theft of intellectual property, predatory loans to small vulnerable countries and an attempt at infiltration of the Government in Australia.
Clearly you have no critical reading sk**ls... I listed four areas of the world outside the West... Perhaps if you paid attention to news outside of the Western MSM you would have a broader perspective...
That was a great attempt...
By a known felon...
With no proof other than his word...
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On balance China is increasingly viewed with suspicion, not respect. Your statement sounds like a handout from the Chinese Government.
By the Western world? No doubt...
And rightly so in many ways....
Just not all...
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A loss of respect for Trump and his blundering antics on the international stage is a separate issue of the core western values enumerated by the Foreign service personnel who testified at the recent impeachment hearing. The standards of impartial professionalism on display are the face of the real silent majority in an increasingly bitter partisan world.)
The American loss of respect and authority began long before Trump...
Amazed you can't see that...
And you'd be amazed how many people outside America (and within obviously) respect Trump...
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(I was in HK recently and have friends there. HK is a major conduit for banking, trade and finance with other countries and squelching of the relative freedoms that HK residents have enjoyed since the handover is a net loss for Beijing and will go down in history as a spectacular blunder at every level. Violence and vandalism cannot be condoned but mischief is now afoot and the genie is out of the bottle as demonstrated by the recent local e******n landslide.)
Once again...
Would you care to explain this time what the mainland has done to threaten the demoxracy of Hongkong?
Why is this so difficult?
1. You have friends there...
2. You have visited and are familiar with the area...
3. You have accessed to the fair and unbiased Western MSM...
So just explain what freedoms have been squelched...
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(I have no ideology to push. I have confidence the Chinese and North Korean people will eventually find their own style of emancipation given the arc of history. That does not mean we in the west are to be denied our voice when we perceive perfidy and fear based controls on human aspirations.
I can agree with this...
The Chinese will find their way... As they have always done... For five thousand plus years...
We westerners tend to forget that China, India and the ME were great empires long before we were ever a blip on the map...
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No “action” has been taken. Try not to limit your thinking to authoritarianism.)
Not sure what you are trying to say here... One of the brackets was missing at the beginning of the statement... Was there more to it?
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(How frightfully decent of you to overlook my idiocy.)
I am a frightfully decent sort of guy...
Let's play nice and enjoy our discussion...
Rare to get a good thread going...
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