The Flaw In "The Aid Went Out So There Is No Crime" Rhetorical Defense...It Actually Didn't: There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical and simple defense that there was no...

woodguru

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical and simple defense that there was no crime because the aid went out. At the heart of that is that people do go to jail when they try to hire someone to k**l another person, just because they are caught and it didn't happen is not a defense...although trump and the GOP believes that this makes for a perfect defense...it does if you stop right there. But when there are a multitude of other details that affect whether this is the full reality those who know the whole story can't debate it with people that stopped with the one line rhetorical basis and want to deny that anything else makes a difference. You need to be able to listen to facts and not reject them before you've even heard them, or you are a member of the ranks of the uninformed and ignorant.

This obstruction, the delay in funding the military aid the house and senate appropriated for military aid was delayed somewhere around 90 days from the time the money was authorized....not a couple of weeks as the white house and GOP rhetoric implies.

The process of actually funding and delivering the aid is involved, it has safeties built in that keep the money from being abuse with waste and fraud. Also there is a stipulation that the Ukraine was cleared by a review process of any corruption concerns with the aid. This had been done.

The whistleblower report came as the result of dozens of concerned people saw the process being illegally held up. Multiple people filed reports with superiors and oversight legal staffers, which were either ignored, or responded to with both warnings that it was coming from the top, or people who had concerns being removed, replaced, or fired. The concerns about the inappropriateness of trump's obstruction with matters of national security and pressuring the Ukraine went all the way to the top, and the people at the top were telling others coming to them who they should file reports with.

Parts of the funds authorized for military aid have to be contracted to the supplier or manufacturer of the weapons need, which can take weeks even under an expedited execution of the funds. One month is considered the minimum period to where the process can't be fulfilled and the money is set to expire, which takes new appropriations or special authority. Trump knew this and intended to run the clock out on this aid, which was part of the concern that those trying to make this happen were worried about.

When an OMB person was objecting to the legality of this stop on the funding process, he was replaced by someone with no applicable experience who would sign the hold orders. This indicates Trump's willingness to ignore warnings that the law was being broken by not placing the hold through official channels, which would have entailed congress being informed of the hold, which obviously would not have flown.

So in spite of GOP assertions that there was no harm, no crime, the funds that were released as a result of being caught by the whistleblower process, the Intelligence Inspector General, and the house were released late enough that even though the OMB tried to make it happen, $38 million was not contracted for funding. Special provisions are being attempted to facilitate this.

This the aid went out so what's the crime rhetoric is for r****ded politicians defending the president, and those who are ignorant enough to stop their search for the t***h right there.

Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon

woodguru wrote:

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical and simple defense that there was no crime because the aid went out. At the heart of that is that people do go to jail when they try to hire someone to k**l another person, just because they are caught and it didn't happen is not a defense...although trump and the GOP believes that this makes for a perfect defense...it does if you stop right there. But when there are a multitude of other details that affect whether this is the full reality those who know the whole story can't debate it with people that stopped with the one line rhetorical basis and want to deny that anything else makes a difference. You need to be able to listen to facts and not reject them before you've even heard them, or you are a member of the ranks of the uninformed and ignorant.

This obstruction, the delay in funding the military aid the house and senate appropriated for military aid was delayed somewhere around 90 days from the time the money was authorized....not a couple of weeks as the white house and GOP rhetoric implies.

The process of actually funding and delivering the aid is involved, it has safeties built in that keep the money from being abuse with waste and fraud. Also there is a stipulation that the Ukraine was cleared by a review process of any corruption concerns with the aid. This had been done.

The whistleblower report came as the result of dozens of concerned people saw the process being illegally held up. Multiple people filed reports with superiors and oversight legal staffers, which were either ignored, or responded to with both warnings that is was coming from the top, or people who had concerns being removed, replaced, or fired. The concerns about the inappropriateness of trump's obstruction with matters of national security and pressuring the Ukraine went all the way to the top, and the people at the top were telling others coming to them who they should file reports with.

Parts of the funds authorized for military aid have to be contracted to the supplier or manufacturer of the weapons need, which can take weeks even under an expedited execution of the funds. One month is considered the minimum period to where the process can't be fulfilled and the money is set to expire, which takes new appropriations or special authority. Trump knew this and intended to run the clock out on this aid, which was part of the concern that those trying to make this happen were worried about.

When an OMB person was objecting to the legality of this stop on the funding process, he was replaced by someone with no applicable experience who would sign the hold orders. This indicates Trump's willingness to ignore warnings that the law was being broken by not placing the hold through official channels, which would have entailed congress being informed of the hold, which obviously would not have flown.

So in spite of GOP assertions that there was no harm, no crime, the funds that were released as a result of being caught by the whistleblower process, the Intelligence Inspector General, and the house were released late enough that even though the OMB tried to make it happen, $38 million was not contracted for funding. Special provisions are being attempted to facilitate this.

This the aid went out so what's the crime rhetoric is for r****ded politicians defending the president, and those who are ignorant enough to stop their search for the t***h right there.

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical... (show quote)

So if someone attempts an assassination and they don't succeed then no crime was committed

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

woodguru wrote:

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical and simple defense that there was no crime because the aid went out. At the heart of that is that people do go to jail when they try to hire someone to k**l another person, just because they are caught and it didn't happen is not a defense...although trump and the GOP believes that this makes for a perfect defense...it does if you stop right there. But when there are a multitude of other details that affect whether this is the full reality those who know the whole story can't debate it with people that stopped with the one line rhetorical basis and want to deny that anything else makes a difference. You need to be able to listen to facts and not reject them before you've even heard them, or you are a member of the ranks of the uninformed and ignorant.

This obstruction, the delay in funding the military aid the house and senate appropriated for military aid was delayed somewhere around 90 days from the time the money was authorized....not a couple of weeks as the white house and GOP rhetoric implies.

The process of actually funding and delivering the aid is involved, it has safeties built in that keep the money from being abuse with waste and fraud. Also there is a stipulation that the Ukraine was cleared by a review process of any corruption concerns with the aid. This had been done.

The whistleblower report came as the result of dozens of concerned people saw the process being illegally held up. Multiple people filed reports with superiors and oversight legal staffers, which were either ignored, or responded to with both warnings that it was coming from the top, or people who had concerns being removed, replaced, or fired. The concerns about the inappropriateness of trump's obstruction with matters of national security and pressuring the Ukraine went all the way to the top, and the people at the top were telling others coming to them who they should file reports with.

Parts of the funds authorized for military aid have to be contracted to the supplier or manufacturer of the weapons need, which can take weeks even under an expedited execution of the funds. One month is considered the minimum period to where the process can't be fulfilled and the money is set to expire, which takes new appropriations or special authority. Trump knew this and intended to run the clock out on this aid, which was part of the concern that those trying to make this happen were worried about.

When an OMB person was objecting to the legality of this stop on the funding process, he was replaced by someone with no applicable experience who would sign the hold orders. This indicates Trump's willingness to ignore warnings that the law was being broken by not placing the hold through official channels, which would have entailed congress being informed of the hold, which obviously would not have flown.

So in spite of GOP assertions that there was no harm, no crime, the funds that were released as a result of being caught by the whistleblower process, the Intelligence Inspector General, and the house were released late enough that even though the OMB tried to make it happen, $38 million was not contracted for funding. Special provisions are being attempted to facilitate this.

This the aid went out so what's the crime rhetoric is for r****ded politicians defending the president, and those who are ignorant enough to stop their search for the t***h right there.

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical... (show quote)

There is a wide divide between holding up just giving away our tax money and hiring someone to k**l another person. Second, shipments of the Javelin in April 2018. Third, the Ukraine had not obligated all the funds we had already given them (Hill's testimony). So....really, did the Ukraine really suffer?

woodguru

Coos Bay Tom wrote:

So if someone attempts an assassination and they don't succeed then no crime was committed

That's how the GOP sees it as far as p**********l crimes. This was their defense on other issues like when McGann threatened to quit over an illegal order he refused to do. Trump backed off so their position is no crime, but wait...Trump didn't want the official record to the effect that an order had been given that was refused that McGann had submitted to be in the records, so he asked McGann to change that report, which McGann also refused to do. This is documented in the Mueller report.

woodguru

Pennylynn wrote:

There is a wide divide between holding up just giving away our tax money and hiring someone to k**l another person. Second, shipments of the Javelin in April 2018. Third, the Ukraine had not obligated all the funds we had already given them (Hill's testimony). So....really, did the Ukraine really suffer?

So Pennlynn, are you aware of the fact that the javelins came with a restriction on their use? They cannot be used on the front lines, now any i***t could figure out that it is on the front border lines where Russian mercenaries were massing tanks for an assault that is where they would be needed to destroy these Russian tanks. Mulvaney has said that they were concerned with Russia's response, that Putin would not like US anti tank weapons being used against Russian tanks...nevermind that Puti denies that these russian mercenaries have anything to do with Russia even though they are using Russian weapons. Before calling me names you look it up...
To say that Ukraine had not obligated all the funds, I'm trying to be nice but really? They had two weeks to contract these funds when a month is not considered enough. It is people like you who can't connect the dots of the details that rhetorical statements like that are pointed at. It was the fact that time was running out to obligate these funds that had people concerned about the hold trump had put on these funds.

https://uawire.org/u-s-forbids-the-use-of-javelin-missiles-in-donbas#

PeterS

woodguru wrote:

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical and simple defense that there was no crime because the aid went out. At the heart of that is that people do go to jail when they try to hire someone to k**l another person, just because they are caught and it didn't happen is not a defense...although trump and the GOP believes that this makes for a perfect defense...it does if you stop right there. But when there are a multitude of other details that affect whether this is the full reality those who know the whole story can't debate it with people that stopped with the one line rhetorical basis and want to deny that anything else makes a difference. You need to be able to listen to facts and not reject them before you've even heard them, or you are a member of the ranks of the uninformed and ignorant.

This obstruction, the delay in funding the military aid the house and senate appropriated for military aid was delayed somewhere around 90 days from the time the money was authorized....not a couple of weeks as the white house and GOP rhetoric implies.

The process of actually funding and delivering the aid is involved, it has safeties built in that keep the money from being abuse with waste and fraud. Also there is a stipulation that the Ukraine was cleared by a review process of any corruption concerns with the aid. This had been done.

The whistleblower report came as the result of dozens of concerned people saw the process being illegally held up. Multiple people filed reports with superiors and oversight legal staffers, which were either ignored, or responded to with both warnings that it was coming from the top, or people who had concerns being removed, replaced, or fired. The concerns about the inappropriateness of trump's obstruction with matters of national security and pressuring the Ukraine went all the way to the top, and the people at the top were telling others coming to them who they should file reports with.

Parts of the funds authorized for military aid have to be contracted to the supplier or manufacturer of the weapons need, which can take weeks even under an expedited execution of the funds. One month is considered the minimum period to where the process can't be fulfilled and the money is set to expire, which takes new appropriations or special authority. Trump knew this and intended to run the clock out on this aid, which was part of the concern that those trying to make this happen were worried about.

When an OMB person was objecting to the legality of this stop on the funding process, he was replaced by someone with no applicable experience who would sign the hold orders. This indicates Trump's willingness to ignore warnings that the law was being broken by not placing the hold through official channels, which would have entailed congress being informed of the hold, which obviously would not have flown.

So in spite of GOP assertions that there was no harm, no crime, the funds that were released as a result of being caught by the whistleblower process, the Intelligence Inspector General, and the house were released late enough that even though the OMB tried to make it happen, $38 million was not contracted for funding. Special provisions are being attempted to facilitate this.

This the aid went out so what's the crime rhetoric is for r****ded politicians defending the president, and those who are ignorant enough to stop their search for the t***h right there.

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical... (show quote)

How else can they defend him? Republicans are the preverbal 'deer in the headlights' and they have no other defense.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

woodguru wrote:

So Pennlynn, are you aware of the fact that the ja... (show quote)

The aid, or free US tax dollars, I was referencing was 2018 funds, meaning in 365 days they had not spent the funds already provided. So, the time was running out for those funds, not for FY2019 funds. For the funds they just received, they have up to the next hand out of US taxpayer money, or about a year to obligate the funds. What the c*******t news network (CNN) mixed up is our US Accounting office, OMB, had only a few weeks to disperse the funds from our books to Ukraine. A bookkeeping t***sfer. I was aware of the restrictions on the Javelins, but that restriction has been lifted. https://uawire.org/ukraine-can-now-use-us-produced-javelin-missiles-in-donbas

I did not call you any names, never have and never will. Why would I? just because we do not agree does not make either of us a bad, ignorant, or subhuman. It simply means that we see things differently and that is a result of experience or our personal sensorship on data we accumulate...we accept or disregard information as t***h or falsehood.

PeterS

Pennylynn wrote:

There is a wide divide between holding up just giving away our tax money and hiring someone to k**l another person. Second, shipments of the Javelin in April 2018. Third, the Ukraine had not obligated all the funds we had already given them (Hill's testimony). So....really, did the Ukraine really suffer?

Holding up our money? Monies that were appropriated by Congress were being held up by the president for the purpose of pressuring Ukraine into investigating Joe Biden and his son.

Now the president does have the power to hold up money that has been appropriated but he has to notify Congress when he does so. He didn't, making the act illegal. So there was a bit more to it than just holding up our money.

And did anyone really suffer? There is a shooting war going on over there and people are dying. Yes, people are suffering and anytime we promise, then withhold our aid, people suffer even more.

Sonny Magoo Loc: Where pot pie is boiled in a kettle

woodguru wrote:

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical and simple defense that there was no crime because the aid went out. At the heart of that is that people do go to jail when they try to hire someone to k**l another person, just because they are caught and it didn't happen is not a defense...although trump and the GOP believes that this makes for a perfect defense...it does if you stop right there. But when there are a multitude of other details that affect whether this is the full reality those who know the whole story can't debate it with people that stopped with the one line rhetorical basis and want to deny that anything else makes a difference. You need to be able to listen to facts and not reject them before you've even heard them, or you are a member of the ranks of the uninformed and ignorant.

This obstruction, the delay in funding the military aid the house and senate appropriated for military aid was delayed somewhere around 90 days from the time the money was authorized....not a couple of weeks as the white house and GOP rhetoric implies.

The process of actually funding and delivering the aid is involved, it has safeties built in that keep the money from being abuse with waste and fraud. Also there is a stipulation that the Ukraine was cleared by a review process of any corruption concerns with the aid. This had been done.

The whistleblower report came as the result of dozens of concerned people saw the process being illegally held up. Multiple people filed reports with superiors and oversight legal staffers, which were either ignored, or responded to with both warnings that it was coming from the top, or people who had concerns being removed, replaced, or fired. The concerns about the inappropriateness of trump's obstruction with matters of national security and pressuring the Ukraine went all the way to the top, and the people at the top were telling others coming to them who they should file reports with.

Parts of the funds authorized for military aid have to be contracted to the supplier or manufacturer of the weapons need, which can take weeks even under an expedited execution of the funds. One month is considered the minimum period to where the process can't be fulfilled and the money is set to expire, which takes new appropriations or special authority. Trump knew this and intended to run the clock out on this aid, which was part of the concern that those trying to make this happen were worried about.

When an OMB person was objecting to the legality of this stop on the funding process, he was replaced by someone with no applicable experience who would sign the hold orders. This indicates Trump's willingness to ignore warnings that the law was being broken by not placing the hold through official channels, which would have entailed congress being informed of the hold, which obviously would not have flown.

So in spite of GOP assertions that there was no harm, no crime, the funds that were released as a result of being caught by the whistleblower process, the Intelligence Inspector General, and the house were released late enough that even though the OMB tried to make it happen, $38 million was not contracted for funding. Special provisions are being attempted to facilitate this.

This the aid went out so what's the crime rhetoric is for r****ded politicians defending the president, and those who are ignorant enough to stop their search for the t***h right there.

There are multiple monster flaws in the rhetorical... (show quote)

Parky60 just posted...read it

Smedley_buzkill

PeterS wrote:

Holding up our money? Monies that were appropriate... (show quote)

Why Peter! You mean you don't advocate banning all those "semi-automatic assault weapons" that are being used by Russian W***e S*********ts to mass murder all those poor people of color Ukranians?

Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon

woodguru wrote:

That's how the GOP sees it as far as p**********l crimes. This was their defense on other issues like when McGann threatened to quit over an illegal order he refused to do. Trump backed off so their position is no crime, but wait...Trump didn't want the official record to the effect that an order had been given that was refused that McGann had submitted to be in the records, so he asked McGann to change that report, which McGann also refused to do. This is documented in the Mueller report.

Things that make you go hummm.

archie bunker Loc: Texas

Coos Bay Tom wrote:

Things that make you go hummm.

Tom, my friend, you know ass well as I that any President who is not a Democrat will be bad in your eyes. No matter what he/she does.

Why in the heck won't you just admit it?

All of you piss me off anymore!

I'm glad I'll be taking a break from this s $$t!!

Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon

archie bunker wrote:

Tom, my friend, you know ass well as I that any President who is not a Democrat will be bad in your eyes. No matter what he/she does.

Why in the heck won't you just admit it?

All of you piss me off anymore!

I'm glad I'll be taking a break from this s $$t!!

What ever you want to think is fine by me because it makes zero difference. I don't care if we have a republican president . I can't stand trump probably for the same reasons so many love him. I talked to Slatten today and he told me you have a job as a mail carrier now. Congratulations I hope it gives you what you have been wanting.---

archie bunker Loc: Texas

Coos Bay Tom wrote:

What ever you want to think is fine by me because it makes zero difference. I don't care if we have a republican president . I can't stand trump probably for the same reasons so many love him. I talked to Slatten today and he told me you have a job as a mail carrier now. Congratulations I hope it gives you what you have been wanting.---

I never could stand Trump, but I do like a lot of what he's trying to do for America. I don't necessarily care for the way he goes about some things,but that's how he is.
Every President in my lifetime has had his hairy moles, and h*****g boogers, but I've never seen the level of pure, unadulterated hatred I see with this one. It's not just hatred for him, but those who support him as well.
It's disturbing.

And, yes, I did get a job with the Postal Service. It took forever, and they're working me like a rented mule, but I think it'll pay off in the long run.
The money and benefits aren't bad for walking around putting bills in people's mailboxes, and squirting their dogs with pepper spray.

Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon

archie bunker wrote:

I never could stand Trump, but I do like a lot of ... (show quote)

There's my old friend. Have the best thanksgiving ever