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Oct 28, 2019 00:31:51   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Firstly, my gratitude to all who have engaged with me over the past year...I have learned much and discovered even more that I never knew I never knew

Secondly, I don't mean this thread to be a challenge to anyone's beliefs...Nor as a condemnation of those who have beliefs differing from mine...

Lastly, I would like to state my intent on this thread is to learn...I seek understanding... As such I intend to abide by the same rule I used on my "Definitions" threads...I will ask questions, but not challenge the claims made by responders...

God bless you all....



Matthew 19 is one of my favorite parts of the NT... It has provoked much thought on numerous subjects... And I find that as time goes by my love of it grows ever stronger...

Perhaps this is because I am a teacher, and have always viewed Christ as a teacher... Especially when he is engaging with people one on one... A teacher is far more effective when dealing with pupils on a personal basis...

For the first of my threads dealing with Matthew 19 I would like to look at a passage that deals with a controversy that we have been discussing at some length this past half year... Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism...


Matthew 19:16-17
19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


I love the entire premise behind this passage... A young man being graced with the opportunity to ask of Christ a question..And such a perfect question as well...(I'd like to think that I would have asked the same question...But there's a good chance I would have wasted mine inquiring as to the workings of the water into wine miracle )

That, before he responds to the question, Christ takes the time to gently rebuke the young man... Claiming that only God should be considered good...

And finally, that Christ provides an answer demonstrating exactly where the faith of the young man was more in conflict..


I would like to focus on the part where Christ apparently makes a clear distinction between himself and God...

I am interested as to the various understandings my brothers on the OPP have considering this passage... And look forward to growing in the sharing of these understandings...

Once again...Gratitude...And God bless...

| Reply
Oct 28, 2019 01:51:48   #
byronglimish Loc: Lapine Oregon
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Firstly, my gratitude to all who have engaged with me over the past year...I have learned much and discovered even more that I never knew I never knew

Secondly, I don't mean this thread to be a challenge to anyone's beliefs...Nor as a condemnation of those who have beliefs differing from mine...

Lastly, I would like to state my intent on this thread is to learn...I seek understanding... As such I intend to abide by the same rule I used on my "Definitions" threads...I will ask questions, but not challenge the claims made by responders...

God bless you all....



Matthew 19 is one of my favorite parts of the NT... It has provoked much thought on numerous subjects... And I find that as time goes by my love of it grows ever stronger...

Perhaps this is because I am a teacher, and have always viewed Christ as a teacher... Especially when he is engaging with people one on one... A teacher is far more effective when dealing with pupils on a personal basis...

For the first of my threads dealing with Matthew 19 I would like to look at a passage that deals with a controversy that we have been discussing at some length this past half year... Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism...


Matthew 19:16-17
19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


I love the entire premise behind this passage... A young man being graced with the opportunity to ask of Christ a question..And such a perfect question as well...(I'd like to think that I would have asked the same question...But there's a good chance I would have wasted mine inquiring as to the workings of the water into wine miracle )

That, before he responds to the question, Christ takes the time to gently rebuke the young man... Claiming that only God should be considered good...

And finally, that Christ provides an answer demonstrating exactly where the faith of the young man was more in conflict..


I would like to focus on the part where Christ apparently makes a clear distinction between himself and God...

I am interested as to the various understandings my brothers on the OPP have considering this passage... And look forward to growing in the sharing of these understandings...

Once again...Gratitude...And God bless...
Firstly, my gratitude to all who have engaged with... (show quote)



I would like to add...Who was Jesus praying to in the garden?

| Reply
Oct 28, 2019 05:28:08   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
And he said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17)

(John Gill's Exposition)
Matthew 19:17-22. He said, "Why callest thou me good?"
— [Whom thou regardest merely as a prophet sent from God, and therefore supposest to be only a man]
"there is none good — Supremely, originally, essentially, but God."

"And he said unto him"
[By way of reply, first taking notice of, and questioning him about, the epithet he gave him:]

"why callest thou me good?"

[not that he denied that he was so; for he was good, both as God and man, in his divine and human natures; in all his offices, and the execution of them; he was goodness itself, and did good, and nothing else but good.]

But the reason of the question is, because this young man considered Him only as a mere man, and gave Him this character as such; and which, in comparison of God, the fountain of all goodness, agrees with no mere man: wherefore our Lord's view is, by His own language; and from His own words, to instruct him in the knowledge of His proper deity.

Some copies read, "why dost thou ask me concerning good". And so the Vulgate Latin, and the Ethiopic versions, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel read; but the Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions, read as we do, and this the answer of Christ requires.]

"There is none good but one, that is God;"

[who is originally, essentially, independently, infinitely, and immutably good, and the author and source of all goodness; which cannot be said of any mere creature. This is to be understood of God considered essentially, and not personally; or it is to be understood, not of the person of the Father, to the exclusion of the Son, or Spirit: who are one God with the Father, and equally good in nature as He.]

Look first at three chapters earlier:

15 “But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.(Matthew 16:15-17)


John 8:56-59
56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

When did Abram see Jesus? Two thousand years before!

Genesis 15:17: "After the sun went down and darkness fell, Abram saw a smoking firepot and a flaming torch pass between the halves of the carcasses."

Who were these "two" who together are called God as they confirm Abram's covenant?

Finally, in moving between the two halves of the animals, "God" is apparently finalizing the agreement between Himself and His people through Abram. This aspect, in particular, is important for its symbolism. Scholars suggest that this ritual — passing between the halves of sacrificed animals—was meant to imply a binding oath on those who participated. By walking between the animals, the person was accepting that same destruction if they broke their end of the bargain. Pointedly, note that Abram does not pass between the halves — only God does, via the symbolism of the smoking pot and flaming torch. The promise God has made here is entirely dependent on His will and His work.



quote=Canuckus Deploracus]Firstly, my gratitude to all who have engaged with me over the past year...I have learned much and discovered even more that I never knew I never knew

Secondly, I don't mean this thread to be a challenge to anyone's beliefs...Nor as a condemnation of those who have beliefs differing from mine...

Lastly, I would like to state my intent on this thread is to learn...I seek understanding... As such I intend to abide by the same rule I used on my "Definitions" threads...I will ask questions, but not challenge the claims made by responders...

God bless you all....



Matthew 19 is one of my favorite parts of the NT... It has provoked much thought on numerous subjects... And I find that as time goes by my love of it grows ever stronger...

Perhaps this is because I am a teacher, and have always viewed Christ as a teacher... Especially when he is engaging with people one on one... A teacher is far more effective when dealing with pupils on a personal basis...

For the first of my threads dealing with Matthew 19 I would like to look at a passage that deals with a controversy that we have been discussing at some length this past half year... Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism...


Matthew 19:16-17
19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


I love the entire premise behind this passage... A young man being graced with the opportunity to ask of Christ a question..And such a perfect question as well...(I'd like to think that I would have asked the same question...But there's a good chance I would have wasted mine inquiring as to the workings of the water into wine miracle )

That, before he responds to the question, Christ takes the time to gently rebuke the young man... Claiming that only God should be considered good...

And finally, that Christ provides an answer demonstrating exactly where the faith of the young man was more in conflict..


I would like to focus on the part where Christ apparently makes a clear distinction between himself and God...

I am interested as to the various understandings my brothers on the OPP have considering this passage... And look forward to growing in the sharing of these understandings...

Once again...Gratitude...And God bless...[/quote]

| Reply
Oct 28, 2019 09:04:10   #
lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Firstly, my gratitude to all who have engaged with me over the past year...I have learned much and discovered even more that I never knew I never knew

Secondly, I don't mean this thread to be a challenge to anyone's beliefs...Nor as a condemnation of those who have beliefs differing from mine...

Lastly, I would like to state my intent on this thread is to learn...I seek understanding... As such I intend to abide by the same rule I used on my "Definitions" threads...I will ask questions, but not challenge the claims made by responders...

God bless you all....



Matthew 19 is one of my favorite parts of the NT... It has provoked much thought on numerous subjects... And I find that as time goes by my love of it grows ever stronger...

Perhaps this is because I am a teacher, and have always viewed Christ as a teacher... Especially when he is engaging with people one on one... A teacher is far more effective when dealing with pupils on a personal basis...

For the first of my threads dealing with Matthew 19 I would like to look at a passage that deals with a controversy that we have been discussing at some length this past half year... Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism...


Matthew 19:16-17
19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


I love the entire premise behind this passage... A young man being graced with the opportunity to ask of Christ a question..And such a perfect question as well...(I'd like to think that I would have asked the same question...But there's a good chance I would have wasted mine inquiring as to the workings of the water into wine miracle )

That, before he responds to the question, Christ takes the time to gently rebuke the young man... Claiming that only God should be considered good...

And finally, that Christ provides an answer demonstrating exactly where the faith of the young man was more in conflict..


I would like to focus on the part where Christ apparently makes a clear distinction between himself and God...

I am interested as to the various understandings my brothers on the OPP have considering this passage... And look forward to growing in the sharing of these understandings...

Once again...Gratitude...And God bless...
Firstly, my gratitude to all who have engaged with... (show quote)


The young man was trying to flatter Jesus and set him up for a "gotcha!" moment, as had many others, but had it turned back on him. We must remember that Jesus was in a human body, not human form ( as many Angels were purported to be ), so had the same struggles as any other human with the weakness of the flesh ( for the flesh is weak, but the Spirit is strong ).

| Reply
Oct 28, 2019 23:30:47   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
byronglimish wrote:
I would like to add...Who was Jesus praying to in the garden?


Interesting question...

Due to my understanding of who Christ is I have never pondered that conflict... I always assumed he was praying to God...

But from a Trinitarian point of view it wouldn't make much sense...Will need to research that...

Thanks...I like questions that make me think...

| Reply
Oct 28, 2019 23:32:20   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
lpnmajor wrote:
The young man was trying to flatter Jesus and set him up for a "gotcha!" moment, as had many others, but had it turned back on him. We must remember that Jesus was in a human body, not human form ( as many Angels were purported to be ), so had the same struggles as any other human with the weakness of the flesh ( for the flesh is weak, but the Spirit is strong ).


Love it...

So Jesus deflects... While leaving the question for others to ponder...

Glad to see you in this section... I wasn't aware that you partook..Hope to hear more from you in the future

| Reply
Oct 28, 2019 23:35:55   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
And he said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17)

(John Gill's Exposition)
Matthew 19:17-22. He said, "Why callest thou me good?"
— [Whom thou regardest merely as a prophet sent from God, and therefore supposest to be only a man]
"there is none good — Supremely, originally, essentially, but God."

"And he said unto him"
[By way of reply, first taking notice of, and questioning him about, the epithet he gave him:]

"why callest thou me good?"

[not that he denied that he was so; for he was good, both as God and man, in his divine and human natures; in all his offices, and the execution of them; he was goodness itself, and did good, and nothing else but good.]

But the reason of the question is, because this young man considered Him only as a mere man, and gave Him this character as such; and which, in comparison of God, the fountain of all goodness, agrees with no mere man: wherefore our Lord's view is, by His own language; and from His own words, to instruct him in the knowledge of His proper deity.

Some copies read, "why dost thou ask me concerning good". And so the Vulgate Latin, and the Ethiopic versions, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel read; but the Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions, read as we do, and this the answer of Christ requires.]

"There is none good but one, that is God;"

[who is originally, essentially, independently, infinitely, and immutably good, and the author and source of all goodness; which cannot be said of any mere creature. This is to be understood of God considered essentially, and not personally; or it is to be understood, not of the person of the Father, to the exclusion of the Son, or Spirit: who are one God with the Father, and equally good in nature as He.]

Look first at three chapters earlier:

15 “But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.(Matthew 16:15-17)


John 8:56-59
56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

When did Abram see Jesus? Two thousand years before!

Genesis 15:17: "After the sun went down and darkness fell, Abram saw a smoking firepot and a flaming torch pass between the halves of the carcasses."

Who were these "two" who together are called God as they confirm Abram's covenant?

Finally, in moving between the two halves of the animals, "God" is apparently finalizing the agreement between Himself and His people through Abram. This aspect, in particular, is important for its symbolism. Scholars suggest that this ritual — passing between the halves of sacrificed animals—was meant to imply a binding oath on those who participated. By walking between the animals, the person was accepting that same destruction if they broke their end of the bargain. Pointedly, note that Abram does not pass between the halves — only God does, via the symbolism of the smoking pot and flaming torch. The promise God has made here is entirely dependent on His will and His work.



quote=Canuckus Deploracus]Firstly, my gratitude to all who have engaged with me over the past year...I have learned much and discovered even more that I never knew I never knew

Secondly, I don't mean this thread to be a challenge to anyone's beliefs...Nor as a condemnation of those who have beliefs differing from mine...

Lastly, I would like to state my intent on this thread is to learn...I seek understanding... As such I intend to abide by the same rule I used on my "Definitions" threads...I will ask questions, but not challenge the claims made by responders...

God bless you all....



Matthew 19 is one of my favorite parts of the NT... It has provoked much thought on numerous subjects... And I find that as time goes by my love of it grows ever stronger...

Perhaps this is because I am a teacher, and have always viewed Christ as a teacher... Especially when he is engaging with people one on one... A teacher is far more effective when dealing with pupils on a personal basis...

For the first of my threads dealing with Matthew 19 I would like to look at a passage that deals with a controversy that we have been discussing at some length this past half year... Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism...


Matthew 19:16-17
19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


I love the entire premise behind this passage... A young man being graced with the opportunity to ask of Christ a question..And such a perfect question as well...(I'd like to think that I would have asked the same question...But there's a good chance I would have wasted mine inquiring as to the workings of the water into wine miracle )

That, before he responds to the question, Christ takes the time to gently rebuke the young man... Claiming that only God should be considered good...

And finally, that Christ provides an answer demonstrating exactly where the faith of the young man was more in conflict..


I would like to focus on the part where Christ apparently makes a clear distinction between himself and God...

I am interested as to the various understandings my brothers on the OPP have considering this passage... And look forward to growing in the sharing of these understandings...

Once again...Gratitude...And God bless...
And he said unto him, "Why callest thou me go... (show quote)


So... Just to make sure I understood... Christ was questioning the man as a kind of double blind?

As in... Why are you calling me good? Is it because you recognize that I am God?

Had not thought of it that way...

And you consider one of the angels who visit Abraham with God to be Christ? The other would be the Holy Spirit? Is that correct?

| Reply
Oct 28, 2019 23:37:36   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
byronglimish wrote:
I would like to add...Who was Jesus praying to in the garden?


Have you ever wondered about the paradox of Satan tempting Christ?

Demons recognized his power and titles... Yet Satan felt confident that he could tempt Christ...

How could one tempt God?

| Reply
Oct 29, 2019 09:36:08   #
byronglimish Loc: Lapine Oregon
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Have you ever wondered about the paradox of Satan tempting Christ?

Demons recognized his power and titles... Yet Satan felt confident that he could tempt Christ...

How could one tempt God?


Yes, I have thought of that.

I guess along the same thinking that caused Lucifers trouble in heaven.

Another paradox..why are Jesus and Lucifer both called the Morningstar.

| Reply
Oct 29, 2019 09:38:47   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
byronglimish wrote:
Yes, I have thought of that.

I guess along the same thinking that caused Lucifers trouble in heaven.

Another paradox..why are Jesus and Lucifer both called the Morningstar.


I have a theory on this one... But nothing to back it up...

I postulate it is because they were both beloved by the Lord...And they were both brought forth for specific purposes....

Just a theory...

Don't suppose you have one to offer in exchange?

| Reply
Oct 29, 2019 09:47:40   #
byronglimish Loc: Lapine Oregon
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
I have a theory on this one... But nothing to back it up...

I postulate it is because they were both beloved by the Lord...And they were both brought forth for specific purposes....

Just a theory...

Don't suppose you have one to offer in exchange?


Counterfeits and imposters. God does test man with evil.

| Reply
Oct 29, 2019 11:15:38   #
Rose42
 
byronglimish wrote:
Yes, I have thought of that.

I guess along the same thinking that caused Lucifers trouble in heaven.

Another paradox..why are Jesus and Lucifer both called the Morningstar.


Why are both Jesus and Satan referred to as the morning star?

The first reference to the morning star as an individual is in Isaiah 14:12: “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (NIV). The KJV and NKJV both translate “morning star” as “Lucifer, son of the morning.” It is clear from the rest of the passage that Isaiah is referring to Satan’s fall from heaven (Luke 10:18). So in this case, the morning star refers to Satan. In Revelation 22:16, Jesus unmistakably identifies Himself as the morning star. Why are both Jesus and Satan described as the “morning star”?

It is interesting to note that the concept of the “morning star” is not the only concept that is applied to both Jesus and Satan. In Revelation 5:5, Jesus is referred to as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. In 1 Peter 5:8, Satan is compared to a lion, seeking someone to devour. The point is this, both Jesus and Satan, to a certain extent, have similarities to lions. Jesus is similar to a lion in that He is the King, He is royal and majestic. Satan is similar to a lion in that he seeks to devour other creatures. That is where the similarities between Jesus, Satan, and lions end, however. Jesus and Satan are like lions in very different ways.

The idea of a “bright morning star” is a star that outshines all the others, and Jesus is the One who is called “bright.” Satan was a morning star. Jesus, as God incarnate, the Lord of the universe, is the BRIGHT and morning star. Jesus is the most holy and powerful “light” in all the universe. So, while both Jesus and Satan can be described as “morning stars,” in no sense is this equating Jesus and Satan. Satan is a created being. His light only exists to the extent that God created it. Jesus is the light of the world (John 9:5). Only Jesus’ light is “bright” and self-existent. Satan may be a morning star, but he is only a poor imitation of the one true bright morning star, Jesus Christ, the light of the world.

https://www.gotquestions.org/morning-star.html

| Reply
Oct 29, 2019 11:18:46   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
byronglimish wrote:
Counterfeits and imposters. God does test man with evil.


Apologies... Clarification... Who are the "counterfeiters and imposters"?

| Reply
Oct 29, 2019 11:21:52   #
byronglimish Loc: Lapine Oregon
 
Rose42 wrote:
Why are both Jesus and Satan referred to as the morning star?

The first reference to the morning star as an individual is in Isaiah 14:12: “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (NIV). The KJV and NKJV both translate “morning star” as “Lucifer, son of the morning.” It is clear from the rest of the passage that Isaiah is referring to Satan’s fall from heaven (Luke 10:18). So in this case, the morning star refers to Satan. In Revelation 22:16, Jesus unmistakably identifies Himself as the morning star. Why are both Jesus and Satan described as the “morning star”?

It is interesting to note that the concept of the “morning star” is not the only concept that is applied to both Jesus and Satan. In Revelation 5:5, Jesus is referred to as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. In 1 Peter 5:8, Satan is compared to a lion, seeking someone to devour. The point is this, both Jesus and Satan, to a certain extent, have similarities to lions. Jesus is similar to a lion in that He is the King, He is royal and majestic. Satan is similar to a lion in that he seeks to devour other creatures. That is where the similarities between Jesus, Satan, and lions end, however. Jesus and Satan are like lions in very different ways.

The idea of a “bright morning star” is a star that outshines all the others, and Jesus is the One who is called “bright.” Satan was a morning star. Jesus, as God incarnate, the Lord of the universe, is the BRIGHT and morning star. Jesus is the most holy and powerful “light” in all the universe. So, while both Jesus and Satan can be described as “morning stars,” in no sense is this equating Jesus and Satan. Satan is a created being. His light only exists to the extent that God created it. Jesus is the light of the world (John 9:5). Only Jesus’ light is “bright” and self-existent. Satan may be a morning star, but he is only a poor imitation of the one true bright morning star, Jesus Christ, the light of the world.

https://www.gotquestions.org/morning-star.html
Why are both Jesus and Satan referred to as the mo... (show quote)



Thank you for the informative post.

| Reply
Oct 29, 2019 11:23:15   #
byronglimish Loc: Lapine Oregon
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Apologies... Clarification... Who are the "counterfeiters and imposters"?


Evil posing as good.

| Reply
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