rumitoid

Sorry, this turned out far lengthier than I anticipated; I ask your indulgence.

It occurred to me today that I was under a certain secret or unconscious assumption about liberal and conservative: a thinking person is not either of these. Of course, many here appear to believe that their opposite politically is unthinking or else they would not be their opposite politically. And we seem to have come to that place where either bent is permanently and irrevocably, it seems, demonized, where the other side of the aisle is incapable of good or value. Can we put that on a shelf just a moment. No one is going to steal these thoughts; you can have them back when I am done. I promise. My attendant will give you a receipt.

I am basing this idea about "a thinking person being neither liberal nor conservative" by classic definition and not present reality.

Liberal:
1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2. ( often initial capital letter ) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.
4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

Con·serv·a·tive:
1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2. cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3. traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.
4. (often initial capital letter ) of or pertaining to the Conservative party.

It seems rather plain to me that neither of these mindsets are, on their own, capable of doing what is best, if remaining always true in principle to that mindset. Both are a limited perception of reality. For the critical intellect naturally inclined either way, it seems just wise to engage all ideas and values one holds by pitting it against the other point of view. Yes, certain values and principles held by either perspective may seem sacrosanct, and perhaps are, yet their application may not truly reflect such.

Two cases in point:
The Liberal wants to help the poor but engages in policies that may defeat productivity; the Conservative demands an uninfringed 2nd Amendment right but may overlook the responsibility to public order and safety. Neither is wrong, neither is right. What is for the ultimate well-being of the common good is somewhere in the middle ground between the extremes. Ergo, being left or right only helps if it is a working contrast to what is in consensus best.

Put another way: Get to bloody work, Congress!

skott Loc: Bama

You are right. Congress is broken.

rumitoid

Yes, and this partisan war means that the we and the country is broken!--all of us.

skott Loc: Bama

No, some of us live in reality, and some of us don't. People have always throughout all of history been biased one way or the other. They have still been function able. We are not because our unreasoned h**e has blinded us. If you don't believe me, just go to the "new topics" list and read the titles.

jimahrens Loc: California

I see what your trying to say but look through a microscope and the liberals are doing exactly the opposite of what you say.

rumitoid

This may be true, and I could be missing something, yet it seems plain to me that BOTH are doing it. Not all, mind, but the extremes of the spectrum.

jimahrens Loc: California

I Agree with you there are good and bad in both Party's. V**ers need to become informed. I will say I don't see the Republicans try to change the Constitution.

ron vrooman Loc: Now OR, born NV

nothing you have to say is worth considering rumitoid

jimahrens Loc: California

Well lets here your brilliant bulls**t!!!

rumitoid

I agree, to some extent. There are ideals behind the Constitutions that have taken a few centuries to realize, such as B****s and Native Americans as first class citizens. It took over a hundred years for women to find e******y. Personally, this is exactly what I think is great about America: not that it was late but that it has worked continually to fulfill its founding ideals. This is utterly unique in all of Civilization! And it admits its failures and looks to rectify them. Unbelievably amazing in history! Nothing like it! I love this country for those reasons. Like a decent person who errs, it finds the courage and conviction to change. Such a country should make hope in humanity a foregone conclusion.

Constitutional libertarian Loc: St Croix National Scenic River Way

You painted what sounds like a reasonable starting point to over coming some of our countries current opportunities.

Yet non of them are new, they are the same as when our country was born. Unfortunately there are some principles that simply aren't negotiable.

One being a******n, it is the taking of a human life by the millions. If you are a clincal psychologist as you claim you know the trama this causes the mother and the scars that may never heal.

That second being our 2nd amendment rights shall not be infringed upon. Your a well read individual and don't make decisions based solely on emotion but hard mesurrable data. All of the data says guns actually make us safer from violent crime, external invasion and an oppressive government.

Yet you advocate opposing arguments against what can be measured.

And last our 1st amendment rights being eroded little by little. Why would someone be doing research on here for the NSA if not to silence our voices.

Viral

Umm... because they don't work for the NSA? Maybe they were joking when they said that?

Black and white scenarios do not create harmony. A******n is a greatly debated topic because we have not established, legally, when life begins. Until we do, we will have religious debates with a few scientific sprinkles added in for color and nothing accomplished.

For hardliners, there is no compromise. In order to achieve harmony in a democratic nation (or in any relationship), you need to compromise. All "my way or the highway" will usually end with you... on the highway, and your crap thrown on the lawn (why is she always right?!).

All rights are subject to limitation based on public safety concerns, or where practice violates the rights of someone else. We already know about yelling "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater where no actual fire exists.


Your rights end where the rights of someone else begin.

Constitutional libertarian Loc: St Croix National Scenic River Way

And that I think is where we are truly at in our countries current discussion.
Where does one persons rights end and the next persons begins.

Does a Christian baker have the right to refuse to make a wedding cake for a same sex couple?

Or as a Muslim barber have the right to refuse to cut a lesbians hair?

Sorry not picking on homophobes, Christians, Muslims or same sex couples, or are they life and death questions just recent OPP conversations.

Viral

You bring up an interesting point.

Do the religious have a right to discriminate? In private, yes. In public, no.

The specific scenarios you mention have their own intricacies.

IIRC the Muslim barbers are forbidden to touch a woman other than his wife (maybe it's any woman?) (probably why they opened a barbershop, expecting only male clientele). The Muslim barbershop owner and the complainant came to a mutually acceptable agreement outside of court (the details were not shared publicly). The take away from this is that they were able to sit down, talk, compromise, and everyone walked away satisfied. His business continues to do well.

The bakery and the complainant were unable to find common ground (if any negotiation took place?). The take away here is that, no compromise lead to one party being kicked to the curb. The bakery closed up shop and moved into the couple's home where it is struggling.

jimahrens Loc: California

Let's take this one more step Lets say the bakery had a sigh Sign said Als Christian Bakery. A homosexual entered the business knowing full well its a Christian bakery. What is the situation now?