Rose42

It is not I who is the quibbler.

Covenant -

• Theology an agreement which brings about a relationship of commitment between God and his people. The Jewish faith is based on the biblical covenants made with Abraham, Moses, and David. See also Ark of the Covenant.

Once again, you cannot back up your false theology.

Edit - meant to add this too -

DEFINITION OF HEBREW
FOR COVENANT
Berit - Berith - Beriyth

Covenant (01285)(berit/berith/beriyth) means covenant, treaty, compact, agreement between two parties (first use in God's covenant with Noah - Ge 6:18, 9:9, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17). As discussed more below beriyth describes a compact made by passing between pieces of flesh. Covenant is a solemn, binding arrangement between two parties and entails a variety of responsibilities, benefits and penalties depending on the specific covenant which is being studied. OT covenants were made between God and man (eg, God with Noah - Ge 6:18, with Abram - Ge 15:18) or between men (Abraham and Abimelech - Ge 21:27, Isaac and Abimelech - Ge 26:28, Jacob and Laban - Ge 31:44) (For summary of covenants see - Covenant in the Bible).

Covenant can be summarized as follows…

(1) Between two parties (sometimes equal, other times superior to inferior) -- (a) nations -- (peace) treaty, alliance of friendship (b) individuals -- a pledge or agreement with mutual obligations to each other (c) monarch and subjects (2Sa 3:21, 5:3, 1Chr 11:3) -- a constitution (d) God and man -- Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, New Covenants. TWOT adds that…

Apart from blood ties the covenant was the way people of the ancient world formed wider relationships with each other The accounts of the relationship between David and Jonathan are the only unequivocal mention of a compact between two individuals in the Old Testament (1Sa 18:3; 20:8; 23:18). It is spoken of as “a covenant of the Lord” because the Lord witnessed the transaction and protected the legal order.

(2) Accompanied by (a) signs (also witnesses, memorials, shared meals) (b) sacrifices, (c) solemn, binding oaths -- sealing the relationship with promises of blessing for keeping the covenant and curses for breaking the covenant (d) Sometimes with written document on which the words of the covenant, its terms in the form of promises and stipulations were spelled out, witnessed to, signed and sealed. Behm (TDNT) notes that in ancient times

There is no firmer guarantee of legal security peace or personal loyalty than the covenant (e.g., Amos 1:9).

(3) Is depicted in the idiomatic phrase "make (cut) a covenant" in which there is was a blood sacrifice as part of the covenant ritual.

Almost 100 years ago, Andrew Murray motivated by a waning understanding regarding the truth and power inherent in the Biblical truth of covenant wrote that…

One of the words of Scripture, which is almost going out of fashion, is the word 'Covenant'. There was a time when it was the keynote of the theology and the Christian life of strong and holy men. We know how deep in Scotland it entered into the national life and thought. It made mighty men, to whom God, and His promise and power were wonderfully real. It will be found still to bring strength and purpose to those who will take the trouble to bring all their life (Ed: and their marriages) under control of the inspiring assurance that they are living in covenant with a God who has sworn faithfully to fulfill in them every promise He has given. (Two Covenants - Index - Andrew Murray)

The majority of the the OT uses of beriyth are translated as covenant (275/285 uses) and the majority of these are translated into Greek using the word diatheke [word study], which was a common technical word used in the Greco-Roman law to describe the settlement of an inheritance (i.e., a "last will and testament") and used in the NT to describe the "self-commitment, promises, and conditions by which [God] entered into relationship with man" (Friberg).

Vine says this about the use of diatheke used in the Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word Beriyth "The wholly gracious and effective character of God’s “covenant” is confirmed in the Septuagint by the choice of diatheke to translate berit/beriyth. A diatheke is a will that distributes one’s property after death according to the owner’s wishes. It is completely unilateral.

Warren Wiersbe - The Hebrew word translated “covenant” has several meanings: (1) to eat with, which suggests fellowship and agreement; (2) to bind or fetter, which means commitment; and (3) to allot, which suggests sharing. When God makes a covenant, He enters into an agreement to commit Himself to give what He promises. It is purely an act of grace. (Be Obedient)

ISBE says that "In essence a covenant is an agreement, but an agreement of a solemn and binding force. The early Semitic idea of a covenant was doubtless that which prevailed among the Arabs. This was primarily blood-brotherhood, in which two men became brothers by drinking each other’s blood. (Ed: Now that sounds serious to me!) (Ed: See illustration in pagan culture).

https://www.preceptaustin.org/covenant_definition

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

So you claim that a covenant in the OT is different from the commonly accepted meaning of the term?

Rose42

That makes no sense. I am not "claiming" anything. Are you saying the Hebrew word is incorrectly used in the bible and your secular meaning is more correct? Seriously?

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

No... I am asking a question...
I can see how the biblical definition would differ from the secular definition... Much like marriage...

And Yes... Any time you present information on a forum it is accepted that you are claiming it is true...Unless you state otherwise...

I was making sure I understood your reasoning..

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Genesis
17:2
"And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly."

God establishes that He will make a covenant between Himself and Abraham...

17:4
"As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations."

A covenant with Abraham...

17:6
"And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee."

The promise of the covenant...

17:7
"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

The promise of the covenant....

17:8
"And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

The promise of the covenant...

17:9
"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations."

Abraham's part of the bargain...

17:10
"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

The act that sealed the covenant.. (between God and Abraham)

17:11
"And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you."

Confirmation of the covenant...

17:13
"He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

He that is bought with money
Seems like slaves can share in the covenant...


17:18
"And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!"

Good Father... Very righteous...

17:19
"And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him"

God needs to establish a covenant that He has already established? Odd..

Or there is a second covenant specific to Isaac...

17:20
"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Great nation...
Hmmm....
Where have we heard God say he will establishva covenant and make great nations of the seed of Abraham?

17:21
"But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

Once again... God feels the need to reestablish a covenant with Isaac?
Or there is a second covenant?

17:23
"And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him."

But...but...but.... If Abraham circumcised Ishmael that means Ishmael will share in his covenant with God.... (Unless God was lying.. See Genesis 17:13)

17:25
"And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

Specifically mentioning Ishmael again... Hmmm...
Because it was so weird, right?
He was the only one at the circumcision that didn't get to share in the covenant....
Ouch!

17:26
"In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son."

Wow... Putting them together in the next passage.. Almost as if to emphasize that Ishmael would share in his father's covenant with God...
(But not his brother's...)

Rose42

Covenant established. Note God says it is an everlasting covenant and Abraham's offspring (Isaac) is included

Gen 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

Isaac is the heir of the everlasting covenant God created with Abraham. Ishmael has no part it in and there is never a mention of God sharing that covenant with Ishmael. Very simple. This was said before Isaac was born. You are reading in something that simply isn't there. He promised he would have many descendants and be made a great nation.

Gen 17:18-19

And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!”

God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him.

Not two separate covenants. A continuation. Paul cements it in Galatians. The one born according to the flesh was Ishmael who mocked Isaac at the feast celebrating his weaning Genesis 21:8-9. Subsequently Hagar and Ishmael were cast out. Ishmael the son of the slave woman did not inherit with the son of the free woman. Isaac inherited the covenant made to Abraham and believers also inherit it because we are spiritual heirs.

Galatians 4
28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

None of this precludes Ishmaels descendants from becoming believers (many have). If they become believers then they too become spiritual heirs of Abraham.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

My Apologies... I am enjoying this conversation... But I have a student on the way...

I will reply in a few hours...

This is most enjoyable

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

In "The Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad," by Hal Lindsey, the hatred ignited when God's promise was given to Isaac, not to Ishmail, is fully explored, and traced down through the centuries to today.

This hatred began with the following historical event:


When God called Abraham out of his hometown and away from all things familiar, He made promises to Abraham, for a covenant, a contract, a binding agreement between two parties. The fifteenth chapter of Genesis reiterates the covenant God had made with Abraham at his calling. This time, however, God graciously reassures His promise with a visual of His presence. He ask Abraham to find and kill a heifer, a ram, a goat, a dove, and a pigeon. Then, Abraham was to cut all except the birds in half, and lay the pieces in two rows, leaving a path through the center (Genesis 15:9-10).

In ancient Near Eastern royal land grant treaties, this type of ritual was done to "seal" the promises made. Through this blood covenant, God was confirming three promises He had made to Abraham: the promise of heirs, the promise of land, and the promise of blessings (Genesis 12:2-3). Such a blood covenant communicated a self-maledictory oath. The parties involved, by walking the path between the slaughtered animals were saying, "May this be done to me if I do not keep my oath." Jeremiah 34:18-19 also records this form of oath-making.

In this blood covenant is a promise made by God that He will choose a people for Himself and bless them. The covenant was originally for Abraham’s physical descendants but was later extended (NOT FOR THE LAND, but spiritually), to all those who, like Abraham, believe God (Galatians 3:7; cf. Genesis 15:6). God’s promise of eternal blessing is given only on the basis of faith in the saving blood of His Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:12).

However, there was an important difference in the blood oath that God made with Abraham in Genesis 15. When the evening came, God appeared in the form of a “smoking fire pot and flaming torch that passed between the pieces” (Genesis 15:17). But Abraham had been placed "into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him" (verse 12). Thus, it was God alone who passed through the pieces of dead animals, and the commitment to fulfill the covenant with Abraham was sealed by God alone.

Nothing depended on Abraham. Unlike the earlier Noahic covenant and the later Mosaic covenant, Everything depended on God, who promised to be faithful to His covenant. "When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself" (Hebrews 6:13-18).

Abraham and his descendants could trust, count on, and believe in the ultimate fulfillment of everything God promised them, including the physical land of Israel as an eternal possession to the descendants of Abraham, then to Isaac, and finally, to Jacob (Gen. 17:19, 21; Genesis 26:4; Gen. 28:14-15).

This specific blood covenant is also known as the Abrahamic Covenant. The blood involved in this covenant, as with any blood covenant, signifies the life from which the blood comes (Leviticus 17:11).

The Mosaic Covenant was also a blood covenant in that it required blood to be sprinkled on the tabernacle, “the scroll and all the people” (Hebrews 9:19-21). “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22). In the Mosaic Covenant, the blood of animals served as a covering, or atonement, for the sins of the people. The animal’s life was given in place of the sinner’s life.

In the Abrahamic Covenant, God, in essence, was declaring He would give His life if His promises were broken. There could be no greater encouragement to believers, since God is eternal and can no more break an oath than He can die.

All of these things were only "copies," or "shadows," of the better covenant to come (Hebrews 9:23). The lives of animals could never remove sin; the life of an animal is not a sufficient substitute for a human life (Hebrews 10:4). The blood of bulls and goats was a temporary appeasement until the final, ultimate blood covenant was made by Jesus Christ Himself – the God Man; fully God and fully man (Hebrews 9:24-28). The New Covenant was in His blood (Luke 22:20).

The shadows became realities in Christ, who fulfilled all of the Old Testament blood covenants with His own blood. Christians can be confident that the gift of eternal life that God gives through Jesus is the true promise to people of faith. As the apostle Paul explains, the covenant was established with Abraham and his "Seed" — the singular person of Christ, "through whom all the world would be blessed" (Galatians 3:15-16).

Therefore, all who are "in Christ" are spiritual heirs of the promises made to Abraham (Galatians 3:29), heirs of the blessing of justification of life, and of everlasting salvation, the eternal inheritance; of this world and of the world to come; to which they are begotten through the abundant mercy of God, and by grace through the justifying righteousness of Christ.


"Jesus: The Greatest Life of All" by Charles Swindoll
http://www.joyfulheart.com/forums/topic/240-q4-cutting-the-covenant/
The Everlasting Hatred, by Hal Lindsey

bahmer

Amen and Amen very good Zemirah thanks for posting that.