A question for historians: Separation of Church and State.... Declaration of Independence and the Constitution does not spell it out. So, where did the idea originate. I think it came...

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Separation of Church and State.... Declaration of Independence and the Constitution does not spell it out. So, where did the idea originate. I think it came from Roger Williams. Does anyone know exactly? I know it is "implied" in First Amendment to the Constitution (part of the Bill of Rights, established in 1791. Your opinions may settle an argument I am having.

Seth

Pennylynn wrote:

Separation of Church and State.... Declaration of Independence and the Constitution does not spell it out. So, where did the idea originate. I think it came from Roger Williams. Does anyone know exactly? I know it is "implied" in First Amendment to the Constitution (part of the Bill of Rights, established in 1791. Your opinions may settle an argument I am having.

Thomas Jefferson, January 1, 1802 in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Seth wrote:

Thomas Jefferson, January 1, 1802 in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut.

Thank you! With your insight, I found the letter and quote:
Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

However, Williams argued to have that wording to appear in our Constitution.... actually proclaiming that "Forced worship stinks in G*d's nostril." Leaving behind the religious intolerance under England's King Charles I, he and his wife journeyed across the ocean to join the "American Experiment" in Boston in 1631.

Williams founded a colony of Rhode Island based upon principles of complete religious toleration, separation of church and state, and political democracy (values the U.S. would later be founded upon). It became a refuge for people persecuted for their religious beliefs.

Quakers, Jews and other religious groups settled in Rhode Island.

After forming the first Baptist church in America, Williams left it to seek spirituality in different ways. He stopped preaching to his friends, the native Americans, when he realized that their form of worship also fell under his principle of religious freedom. He is a most interesting person. He actually was mentioned in my family's founder with many !!!!! points, and the reason our family actually bought our land from the Native Americans although they had been gifted the property by the King.

So, could it be that Jefferson "borrowed" from Williams and we are crediting the wrong person? At least that is the argument I am using with my cousin.

Seth

Pennylynn wrote:

Thank you! With your insight, I found the letter and quote:
Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

However, Williams argued to have that wording to appear in our Constitution.... actually proclaiming that "Forced worship stinks in G*d's nostril." Leaving behind the religious intolerance under England's King Charles I, he and his wife journeyed across the ocean to join the "American Experiment" in Boston in 1631.

Williams founded a colony of Rhode Island based upon principles of complete religious toleration, separation of church and state, and political democracy (values the U.S. would later be founded upon). It became a refuge for people persecuted for their religious beliefs.

Quakers, Jews and other religious groups settled in Rhode Island.

After forming the first Baptist church in America, Williams left it to seek spirituality in different ways. He stopped preaching to his friends, the native Americans, when he realized that their form of worship also fell under his principle of religious freedom. He is a most interesting person. He actually was mentioned in my family's founder with many !!!!! points, and the reason our family actually bought our land from the Native Americans although they had been gifted the property by the King.

So, could it be that Jefferson "borrowed" from Williams and we are crediting the wrong person? At least that is the argument I am using with my cousin.

Thank you! With your insight, I found the letter ... (show quote)

That's a tough one for me, Jefferson being one of my favorite founders, if not the favorite, and one of the most brilliant. I'm therefore inclined to credit toss-ups to him. 😁

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Seth wrote:

That's a tough one for me, Jefferson being one of my favorite founders, if not the favorite, and one of the most brilliant. I'm therefore inclined to credit toss-ups to him. 😁

I agree with you.... he is my favorite too!! Brilliant and clear in his writings and opinions!!!!

Big dog

Pennylynn wrote:

I agree with you.... he is my favorite too!! Brilliant and clear in his writings and opinions!!!!

His manner of writing is quite eloquent for sure.

lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas

Pennylynn wrote:

Thank you! With your insight, I found the letter and quote:
Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

However, Williams argued to have that wording to appear in our Constitution.... actually proclaiming that "Forced worship stinks in G*d's nostril." Leaving behind the religious intolerance under England's King Charles I, he and his wife journeyed across the ocean to join the "American Experiment" in Boston in 1631.

Williams founded a colony of Rhode Island based upon principles of complete religious toleration, separation of church and state, and political democracy (values the U.S. would later be founded upon). It became a refuge for people persecuted for their religious beliefs.

Quakers, Jews and other religious groups settled in Rhode Island.

After forming the first Baptist church in America, Williams left it to seek spirituality in different ways. He stopped preaching to his friends, the native Americans, when he realized that their form of worship also fell under his principle of religious freedom. He is a most interesting person. He actually was mentioned in my family's founder with many !!!!! points, and the reason our family actually bought our land from the Native Americans although they had been gifted the property by the King.

So, could it be that Jefferson "borrowed" from Williams and we are crediting the wrong person? At least that is the argument I am using with my cousin.

Thank you! With your insight, I found the letter ... (show quote)

As there were no exact examples to draw from in developing laws for a new Nation, everything was borrowed. Each delegate brought their own unique perspective to the table, based on personal or family history. It appears that the overriding concern among the folks developing the new Nation's Constitution, was in limiting or proscribing the power and authority of the new Government, ensuring individual liberties.

The first "Americans" came here to avoid religious persecution, yet set up their colonies under the rule of.................their own religious leaders. Having tasted freedoms unheard of at the time, subsequent generations of colonists rebelled against the "established" religious leadership, developing secular administrations. Although many "religious" communities survived this r*******n, the majority of them came to believe that it should be an individual's CHOICE to remain or not.

TrueAmerican

Seth wrote:

Thomas Jefferson, January 1, 1802 in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut.

Wait wait according to the l*****t we are to just totally erase Thomas Jefferson from our history so we shouldn't legislate or govern based on anything he had to say. So which is it, is he a r****t from our past and should be ignored or is he a profound and honorable statesman from our past and we should live by his standards. L*****t such as kev-boi, airfortone, sewsewwhat, and all of the rest of you so called l*****t socialist what say you which is it. Or is it just what ever suits your current propaganda needs ??????