JW

"Demokratia
As Aristotle wrote in his fifth-century B.C. treatise "Politics," a political system in which power is vested in the general population stands in contrast to governments ruled by a smaller group within society. For instance, Aristotle contrasts the people-powered democracy of Athens to an aristocracy, in which political power is concentrated in the "aristoi," the people considered to have the greatest virtue or merit."

We have no official social aristocracy but we do have a political one.

By the very definition of the people who invented democracy, the Greeks of Athens, there is no such thing as a representative democracy. It is a contradiction in terms rendering the concept empty and useless.

Representation by proxy is not democratic because we have no control over the actions of the representative once the proxy is conveyed. In other words, our v**es have no value or impact other than at the time of the next e******n. Government by the people does not exist in the USA but government is answerable to the people in our country. We the people do not run the government but we determine who does. That has always been the case.

Government by a select group is called an oligarchy irrespective of how they gain office. In the USA, we have around 500 people who make the laws and drive the federal bureaucracy. That fits very nicely into the definition of an oligarchy. The various states follow the same model.

The principal difference between a democracy and a republic is the power of the constitution. In a republic, the law is supreme and everyone is subject to the same legal considerations. In a democracy, the people are supreme and a simple majority can turn the laws on a dime. In a republic, the constitution provides a requirement for persuasion and consideration in determining government actions (for example, 2/3ds majority requirement to act). In a democracy, there is no such d**g on the decision-making process.

Put another way, a republic secures the rights and responsibilities of the citizenry. In a democracy, nothing is secure from the next v**e.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Awe... C'mon... Semantics are fun..

Definition from wiki:

Representative democracy (also indirect democracy, representative government or psephocracy) is a type of democracy founded on the principle of elected officials representing a group of people, as opposed to direct democracy. Nearly all modern Western-style democracies are types of representative democracies; for example, the United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy, France is a unitary state, and the United States is a federal Constitutional republic.

It is an element of both the parliamentary and the p**********l systems of government and is typically used in a lower chamber such as the House of Commons of the United Kingdom, Lok Sabha of India, and may be curtailed by constitutional constraints such as an upper chamber. In it the power is in the hands of the representatives who are elected by the people.



Smile and relax... We've had a few millenia to work on it since the Greek's thought it up...

JW

Step one in subversion of the existing order is to confuse the language. General communication ceases to be meaningful when the terms are no longer specific.

Things like doing away with the e*******l college and electing officials on the basis of popular v**e is a badly misguided effort to turn our country from a republic into a democracy. (Subversion of the existing order).

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I agree that doing away with the E*******l College is a terrible idea....

Semantically a Republic is a form of democracy....An indirect democracy...

Villifying terms is a practice best left to the PC fanatics

JW

If words have any meaning then we are bound to respect those meanings as founded, not as manipulated. A republic is the virtual opposite of a democracy in the meaning and the sense of governance but especially in the protection of the rights of the minority. There is no protection in a democracy.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Unfortunately words often have multiple meanings, or grades of meanings, or are used to represent ideas that have similar meanings...

What is the DemocratIc People's Republic of Korea?

A Democracy (as you claim) or a Republic (Which you believe to be the opposite of a Democracy)?

How do you reconcile the two terms?

Note: I Personally believe that the DPRK is neither a Democracy, nor a Republic... The quandary is found solely in your insistence of attributing absolute and singular definitions to terms...

Larry the Legend Loc: Not hiding in Milton

Nailed it!

Morgan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
People try to equate democracy to as a failed form of government, and one in chaos, which is not true, as seen in its inception by the Greeks and lasted for 350 years, until they were invaded and overpowered.

Possibly...during the forming of the first government what existed was only a direct democracy, this may be true. But we humans have evolved, with many different forms of government stemming from the first, this is the wonderful power of freedom of choice, is it not? Today, there does exist an indirect democracy, which includes a definition, whether one chooses not to believe that or not, is up to them. It is certainly not a contradiction in terms.

{The beginnings of democracy can be credited to the Greeks of the sixth century BC. The word comes from two Greek words: demos, meaning "the people," and kratein, meaning "to rule." These two words are joined together to form democracy, literally meaning "rule by the people"

The Greek system of government was perhaps closer to a true democracy or rule by the people than any other in history. The Greeks viewed dictatorship as the worst possible form of government, so their government evolved as the exact opposite.} http://resources.saylor.org/wwwresources/archived/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/HIST-303-1.2.3-Origins-of-Democracy.pdf


But more to the point is that we, the United States works within the realm of a democracy, by the people's v**e, which is sometimes direct, in local v**es choosing our representatives, and indirect by representation in our p**********l v**e.

If you notice our Constitution begins it's first words with, "We the People" NOT... "We the Representatives of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union

In conclusion we are both. A constitutional federal republic, (our laws) working within a democracy.~We the people.

Morgan

A republic is in no way the complete opposite, but rather they work in social congruency to form a more perfect~ideal government, where the people are not overruled by the government. A democracy certainly can and does work within a set of laws.

This is something we should all consider as we push against opposite parties, when in reality we need both to exist for a balance. If you notice the rights main concern is from foreign invasion, which is good, whereas the left checks that it's citizens rights are protected...both are needed for a good and balanced country.

lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas

According to you though, the rights of the citizens are only secured if those in the Government choose to do so. The law, in and of itself, is powerless to affect anything or anyone - humans must CHOOSE to obey the law. Humans are notorious for cherry picking which laws they feel like adhering to, and which laws OTHERS will be subject to.

Seth

Thusfar, this thread is like watching a tennis match in which, idea for idea, one is rooting for both players.

A true democracy is, in every sense, an invitation to mob rule -- all it takes is for a self elected prime mover on one side to have a strong "gift of gab" and persuade enough people to see things his way, or for enough people to either overreact to certain circumstances or for a majority to decide its priorities should take precedence over the minority's, right or wrong, good or bad...

Our own republic is predicated on the requirement that all participants respect and follow the rules (in this case, the Constitution) in order for it to work.

It also requires a certain amount of responsibility by all participants, including not only the elected officials, but the "free press" as well, since we afford them privileged access to said elected officials and to various events of importance with the agreement that they will accurately report the data gleaned from this access in order to keep the v****g public informed, therefore able to process the information and make their own decisions as to whom they will v**e for to represent them at the city, state and federal levels.

When the above responsibilities are abused, the entire system malfunctions, as it has in recent years, at least to some degree.

It's about playing by the rules, and, very unfortunately, we have allowed proponents of a system compatible with neither true democracy nor constitutional republic to infiltrate our system, not unlike a v***s, advertising itself as democratic while actually pushing us toward something more along the lines of f*****m.

They have converted the lion's share of our "free press" into a propaganda medium while financing the campaigns of abusers who not only don't play by the established rules, but hold them in contempt as well, and in a few short years have done a lot of damage to our republic, by both dividing the people into a number of mutually hostile factions and forcing "ideas" down our throats that not long ago would have gone entirely against the grain of our collective American sensibilities.

My Canadianese friend, you yourself make the point that semantics is a factor and indeed it is, citing the DPRK as not really being a democracy as its title implies. Many such dictatorships seem to enjoy using the term "democratic" when they are no such thing, and even here in America our own Democratic Party, willfully or otherwise, is gradually pushing us down a road whose end, if we are ever unfortunate enough to arrive there, would be anything but democratic.

They are doing this by tossing those rules I mentioned out the proverbial window, both their elected officials and the mainstream media working in tandem, and as such have started a civil war of sorts, an "us versus them" political environment in which those of us who believe in the rules are fighting to return our country to it's previous state in which all those institutions of governance and information also play by the rules.

It's like trying to plug ever-multiplying holes in a dam, because the generals behind what amounts to the "invading force" never tire of opening new fronts on diverse, unexpected battlefields.

The emergence of the Trump era has created an even deeper state of urgency among "the enemy" because this president threatens to nullify all or most of the ground they have gained in their war on our constitutional republic, which is why they have abandoned even a pretense of decency, morality or love of our system of government, going all out to snatch wh**ever victory they can from the jaws of defeat.

Off topic, have you by chance ever run across a blog called "The Gweilo Diaries?"

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Nice post...

Canadianese... I like that... Gonna use it for my daughter from now on...

Have never heard of this blog... Would have to be from down south in Canton.... Gweilo is what they call us in the cantonese areas... The mandorin speakers call us Laowai...

Is it interesting?

Seth

A NYer friend of mine was director of sales, Asia for MCI years ago and lived in HK during that time, early 2000s preceding the SARS epidemic, and I jokingly asked him once what it's like being the "Taipan of Telecoms," and he referred me to the blog to get a sense of what it's like being an American expat over there.

Gweilo Diaries was by an American apparently living there and doing business around Asia. It was highly informative and his blogroll introduced me to conservative American and some other Asian blogs like "The Marmot's Hole" by I believe another expat, I got the impression a Brit.

Just wondered if you were familiar with it. I haven't visited the blog for many years, but if it's still around, you might find it interesting. The blogger called himself Conrad.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I will look it up in the morning...
Off to bed myself... Pretty bushed here...
Have fun and play nice...
Has been a good week so far...

Your friend, Kyle

jwrevagent

This whole thread has been most interesting. And the dialogue respectful. Thank you for that.