One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Faith, Religion, Spirituality
Catholocism's undermining of scripture
Dec 12, 2018 14:08:03   #
Rose42
 
The Catholic Church hobbled Scripture by keeping the Bible in Latin and resisting its translation into the language of the common people.

KEEPING THE BIBLE IN LATIN

Under Roman rule, Latin became a universal language. So when the Bible was originally translated from Greek and Hebrew into Latin, that made it more available to people. However, with the collapse of the Roman empire, Latin was spoken less and less. In time, only scholars understood it. The vast majority of people no longer spoke it.

Starting about 1080 there were many incidents where the Pope, Church councils, or individual bishops forbid the translation of the Bible into the language of the common people (the vernacular). [Note 2] Men such as William Tyndale were burned as heretics for translating the Bible into English. [Note 3]

Laymen were not even allowed to read the Bible in Latin. Reading the Bible was considered to be proof that someone was a heretic. Men and women were burned at the stake for reading the Bible in Latin. [Note 4]

People were so hungry to know what the Bible said that when an English translation of the Bible was finally made available, people packed the church where it was kept, while men took turns reading the Bible out loud. As long as there was daylight, men kept reading the Bible while the crowds listened. [Note 5]

STRUGGLING WITH LATIN

When I became a Catholic, the Mass was still in Latin. I was good at languages. I studied French in high school and college. I also studied three years of college Latin.

At High Mass, the Scriptures were sung in Latin. The Bible was a large, ornate book. The priest would cover it with incense, and bow before it, and sing the Scripture verses in Gregorian chant. I used to love to listen to Gregorian chant. The music was beautiful.

However, the one thing that I could not do was to understand the Scripture that was sung. With my three years of college Latin, I could sometimes understand the meaning of a word or a phrase. But that was nothing like understanding the Scripture passage.

The end result reminds me of the Andy Warhol painting of a can of Campbell's tomato soup. The museum paid thousands of dollars for that painting. Many people come to see it. The painting is described in the museum tour book. You can study the picture. If you are an artist, you can paint a copy of it. You can do everything except eat the soup. And why does Campbell's make tomato soup? So that people can eat it. And why did God give us the Bible? So that people would understand it and be transformed by it.

TRANSLATING THE BIBLE

The first English translation of the Bible was made in 1382 by the followers of John Wycliffe, with his help and inspiration. An improved version was completed in 1388. Wycliffe's followers were known as Lollards. They were severely persecuted. Wycliffe's translation of the Bible had to be copied by hand, which is a slow process. Most of the copies of Wycliffe's English Bible were destroyed. [Note 6]

A century and a half later, the Tyndale-Coverdale Bible was published in 1535. William Tyndale and Bishop Miles Coverdale translated the original Greek and Hebrew texts into English. This English Bible was published in Germany, where Tyndale had taken refuge. The printing press had been invented. This enabled Tyndale and his followers to produce copies of the English Bible faster than they could be found and destroyed. Tyndale was burned at the stake. [Note 7]

Forty-seven years later (1582), the first Catholic translation of the New Testament into English was published. The Catholic translation of the Old Testament was published in 1609. These translations were not from the original Greek and Hebrew. Rather, they were from a Latin version of the Bible. [Note 8]

ADDING TRADITION TO SCRIPTURE

The Catholic Church officially states that Catholic tradition is equal in authority to the Bible. [Note 9] Catholic tradition consists of various expressions of worship and belief of the Catholic people. [Note 10] It is nebulous. It keeps changing. You cannot find it written in one place. You can't really put your hands on exactly what it is.

For Jesus' evaluation of the religious traditions of his time, read Mark 7:1-13 and Matthew 15:1-9. Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees because their traditions nullified the Word of God. He used Scripture to measure the validity of their religious traditions. He was distressed because the religious leaders of his time considered their traditions to be equal in authority to Scripture. He rebuked them saying, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:8-9) In Mark 7:8, Jesus says, "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the traditions of men". (See Mark 7:6-8.)

FORBIDDING PEOPLE TO
INTERPRET THE BIBLE FOR THEMSELVES

According to the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, Catholics are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without first checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the Catholic bishops interpret Scripture passages, and they are to accept what the bishops teach "with docility" as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or to follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. [Note 11]

CROWDING OUT SCRIPTURE

Long before I became a nun I was reading the "Divine Office" (the "Breviary" which is read or sung by priests and monks and nuns). I was told that by doing this I was reading all of the psalms every week. That was partially true. Short psalms were included in their entirety. But we read only portions of the longer psalms. Every week we read those same selected verses again, but we never read the rest of the long psalms. In addition to the psalms, we read short selections from the Old Testament and the New Testament, as well as antiphons (songs or hymns which could be sung or read).

Because I spent so much time reading things from Scripture, I thought that I was familiar with the Bible. But all I was reading was a small portion of it, over and over and over.

It took me over an hour to read the "Divine Office". In addition, I also went to daily Mass, and I often prayed the rosary. In my earlier days I used to read the Bible, but the "Divine Office" and Mass and the rosary took so much time that I stopped reading the Bible.

Jesus told a parable about the sower who sowed the Word of God on different kinds of soil. (Luke 8:5-15) Religious devotions that keep us too busy to read the Bible choke out the Word of God.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060206210308/http://catholicconcerns.com:80/Undermining.html

Reply
Dec 12, 2018 15:05:53   #
padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al
 
Rose42 wrote:
The Catholic Church hobbled Scripture by keeping the Bible in Latin and resisting its translation into the language of the common people.

KEEPING THE BIBLE IN LATIN

Under Roman rule, Latin became a universal language. So when the Bible was originally translated from Greek and Hebrew into Latin, that made it more available to people. However, with the collapse of the Roman empire, Latin was spoken less and less. In time, only scholars understood it. The vast majority of people no longer spoke it.

Starting about 1080 there were many incidents where the Pope, Church councils, or individual bishops forbid the translation of the Bible into the language of the common people (the vernacular). [Note 2] Men such as William Tyndale were burned as heretics for translating the Bible into English. [Note 3]

Laymen were not even allowed to read the Bible in Latin. Reading the Bible was considered to be proof that someone was a heretic. Men and women were burned at the stake for reading the Bible in Latin. [Note 4]

People were so hungry to know what the Bible said that when an English translation of the Bible was finally made available, people packed the church where it was kept, while men took turns reading the Bible out loud. As long as there was daylight, men kept reading the Bible while the crowds listened. [Note 5]

STRUGGLING WITH LATIN

When I became a Catholic, the Mass was still in Latin. I was good at languages. I studied French in high school and college. I also studied three years of college Latin.

At High Mass, the Scriptures were sung in Latin. The Bible was a large, ornate book. The priest would cover it with incense, and bow before it, and sing the Scripture verses in Gregorian chant. I used to love to listen to Gregorian chant. The music was beautiful.

However, the one thing that I could not do was to understand the Scripture that was sung. With my three years of college Latin, I could sometimes understand the meaning of a word or a phrase. But that was nothing like understanding the Scripture passage.

The end result reminds me of the Andy Warhol painting of a can of Campbell's tomato soup. The museum paid thousands of dollars for that painting. Many people come to see it. The painting is described in the museum tour book. You can study the picture. If you are an artist, you can paint a copy of it. You can do everything except eat the soup. And why does Campbell's make tomato soup? So that people can eat it. And why did God give us the Bible? So that people would understand it and be transformed by it.

TRANSLATING THE BIBLE

The first English translation of the Bible was made in 1382 by the followers of John Wycliffe, with his help and inspiration. An improved version was completed in 1388. Wycliffe's followers were known as Lollards. They were severely persecuted. Wycliffe's translation of the Bible had to be copied by hand, which is a slow process. Most of the copies of Wycliffe's English Bible were destroyed. [Note 6]

A century and a half later, the Tyndale-Coverdale Bible was published in 1535. William Tyndale and Bishop Miles Coverdale translated the original Greek and Hebrew texts into English. This English Bible was published in Germany, where Tyndale had taken refuge. The printing press had been invented. This enabled Tyndale and his followers to produce copies of the English Bible faster than they could be found and destroyed. Tyndale was burned at the stake. [Note 7]

Forty-seven years later (1582), the first Catholic translation of the New Testament into English was published. The Catholic translation of the Old Testament was published in 1609. These translations were not from the original Greek and Hebrew. Rather, they were from a Latin version of the Bible. [Note 8]

ADDING TRADITION TO SCRIPTURE

The Catholic Church officially states that Catholic tradition is equal in authority to the Bible. [Note 9] Catholic tradition consists of various expressions of worship and belief of the Catholic people. [Note 10] It is nebulous. It keeps changing. You cannot find it written in one place. You can't really put your hands on exactly what it is.

For Jesus' evaluation of the religious traditions of his time, read Mark 7:1-13 and Matthew 15:1-9. Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees because their traditions nullified the Word of God. He used Scripture to measure the validity of their religious traditions. He was distressed because the religious leaders of his time considered their traditions to be equal in authority to Scripture. He rebuked them saying, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:8-9) In Mark 7:8, Jesus says, "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the traditions of men". (See Mark 7:6-8.)

FORBIDDING PEOPLE TO
INTERPRET THE BIBLE FOR THEMSELVES

According to the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, Catholics are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without first checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the Catholic bishops interpret Scripture passages, and they are to accept what the bishops teach "with docility" as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or to follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. [Note 11]

CROWDING OUT SCRIPTURE

Long before I became a nun I was reading the "Divine Office" (the "Breviary" which is read or sung by priests and monks and nuns). I was told that by doing this I was reading all of the psalms every week. That was partially true. Short psalms were included in their entirety. But we read only portions of the longer psalms. Every week we read those same selected verses again, but we never read the rest of the long psalms. In addition to the psalms, we read short selections from the Old Testament and the New Testament, as well as antiphons (songs or hymns which could be sung or read).

Because I spent so much time reading things from Scripture, I thought that I was familiar with the Bible. But all I was reading was a small portion of it, over and over and over.

It took me over an hour to read the "Divine Office". In addition, I also went to daily Mass, and I often prayed the rosary. In my earlier days I used to read the Bible, but the "Divine Office" and Mass and the rosary took so much time that I stopped reading the Bible.

Jesus told a parable about the sower who sowed the Word of God on different kinds of soil. (Luke 8:5-15) Religious devotions that keep us too busy to read the Bible choke out the Word of God.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060206210308/http://catholicconcerns.com:80/Undermining.html
The Catholic Church hobbled Scripture by keeping t... (show quote)


Are you as concerned that you and I can't read a Chinese Bible? Part of the trouble between the East and the West a thousand years ago was because of languages, Greek and Latin and interpretations. (Sometimes my own wife does not understand me.) A Bible in English is great for folks who read and understand English. Latin was once a very common language taught in High Schools. Hard to find a high School where Latin is taught today and it adversely affected comprehension and English composition. Finally, when Latin was the liturgical lay language of the Catholic Church it accomplished two things. First, it gave people a sense of the antiquity of their faith and also no matter where one went in the world the worship service was the same. Because of the demand of the laity, Catholic priests are permitted again to celebrate the Latin Mass. How come I know these things and you don't and I'm not a Catholic priest? Furthermore, many update of English speaking Protestant Bibles modernized the vernacular; many have even neutered the genders and God is no longer Our Father. And then there is the great Earth Mother, Sophia, but that a subject for another time.

Perhaps you criticize what you never had opportunity to fully understand? Oh yes, one more thing. Sometimes I don't understand my wife either. Especially when she's in the kitchen, the TV's blaring and she speaks like I'm standing right next to her. Grrrrrrrrrrr!

Reply
Dec 12, 2018 15:43:37   #
Rose42
 
padremike wrote:
Are you as concerned that you and I can't read a Chinese Bible? Part of the trouble between the East and the West a thousand years ago was because of languages, Greek and Latin and interpretations. (Sometimes my own wife does not understand me.) A Bible in English is great for folks who read and understand English. Latin was once a very common language taught in High Schools. Hard to find a high School where Latin is taught today and it adversely affected comprehension and English composition. Finally, when Latin was the liturgical lay language of the Catholic Church it accomplished two things. First, it gave people a sense of the antiquity of their faith and also no matter where one went in the world the worship service was the same. Because of the demand of the laity, Catholic priests are permitted again to celebrate the Latin Mass. How come I know these things and you don't and I'm not a Catholic priest?
Are you as concerned that you and I can't read a C... (show quote)


As for the Chinese, I believe it was protestants who ended up translating the bible for them.

I was taught the same thing about why latin and even had a little latin. It wasn't until I was older that I questioned the validity of the history since the congregation was excluded. Christ was born over 2000 years ago which should convey the antiquity of the faith. Even now I could attend a mass in Swahili and still know when to sit, stand, kneel and give a response. That doesn't mean anything with respect to whether or not the service is alive.

I've attended high masses after Vatican II and they were in Latin. The differences were a lot of it was sung and the priest was facing us which made it more interesting (and inviting) than the old style of mass. The old mass in latin was never inviting. By its very nature with the priest facing away, it excluded.

Quote:
Furthermore, many update of English speaking Protestant Bibles modernized the vernacular; many have even neutered the genders and God is no longer Our Father. And then there is the great Earth Mother, Sophia, but that a subject for another time.


The latest NIV translation does that. I'm not aware of another that does. Many stopped using the NIV after that huge error in judgement on their part.

Reply
 
 
Dec 12, 2018 17:06:04   #
padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al
 
Rose42 wrote:
The latest NIV translation does that. I'm not aware of another that does. Many stopped using the NIV after that huge error in judgement on their part.


When the priest faced the Altar he represented the people to God. When facing the People he represented God to the people. Represents, not IS! It was symbolism that was understood. When we worship we use all the senses and symbols. We don't simply sit in a pew and have someone read and preach to us. In fact, the homily is not the hight of the Worship Service. That's why they're rarely over 10 to 15 minutes in length and practically always on the Gospal for each particular Sunday on the liturgical (Ordo) calendar. Yet Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists and Lutherans are fed more scripture than the typical evangelical in their services.

There are several different political and anatomical correct Bibles. We would agree they have no place in a Christian Church!

Reply
Dec 13, 2018 12:01:42   #
bahmer
 
Rose42 wrote:
The Catholic Church hobbled Scripture by keeping the Bible in Latin and resisting its translation into the language of the common people.

KEEPING THE BIBLE IN LATIN

Under Roman rule, Latin became a universal language. So when the Bible was originally translated from Greek and Hebrew into Latin, that made it more available to people. However, with the collapse of the Roman empire, Latin was spoken less and less. In time, only scholars understood it. The vast majority of people no longer spoke it.

Starting about 1080 there were many incidents where the Pope, Church councils, or individual bishops forbid the translation of the Bible into the language of the common people (the vernacular). [Note 2] Men such as William Tyndale were burned as heretics for translating the Bible into English. [Note 3]

Laymen were not even allowed to read the Bible in Latin. Reading the Bible was considered to be proof that someone was a heretic. Men and women were burned at the stake for reading the Bible in Latin. [Note 4]

People were so hungry to know what the Bible said that when an English translation of the Bible was finally made available, people packed the church where it was kept, while men took turns reading the Bible out loud. As long as there was daylight, men kept reading the Bible while the crowds listened. [Note 5]

STRUGGLING WITH LATIN

When I became a Catholic, the Mass was still in Latin. I was good at languages. I studied French in high school and college. I also studied three years of college Latin.

At High Mass, the Scriptures were sung in Latin. The Bible was a large, ornate book. The priest would cover it with incense, and bow before it, and sing the Scripture verses in Gregorian chant. I used to love to listen to Gregorian chant. The music was beautiful.

However, the one thing that I could not do was to understand the Scripture that was sung. With my three years of college Latin, I could sometimes understand the meaning of a word or a phrase. But that was nothing like understanding the Scripture passage.

The end result reminds me of the Andy Warhol painting of a can of Campbell's tomato soup. The museum paid thousands of dollars for that painting. Many people come to see it. The painting is described in the museum tour book. You can study the picture. If you are an artist, you can paint a copy of it. You can do everything except eat the soup. And why does Campbell's make tomato soup? So that people can eat it. And why did God give us the Bible? So that people would understand it and be transformed by it.

TRANSLATING THE BIBLE

The first English translation of the Bible was made in 1382 by the followers of John Wycliffe, with his help and inspiration. An improved version was completed in 1388. Wycliffe's followers were known as Lollards. They were severely persecuted. Wycliffe's translation of the Bible had to be copied by hand, which is a slow process. Most of the copies of Wycliffe's English Bible were destroyed. [Note 6]

A century and a half later, the Tyndale-Coverdale Bible was published in 1535. William Tyndale and Bishop Miles Coverdale translated the original Greek and Hebrew texts into English. This English Bible was published in Germany, where Tyndale had taken refuge. The printing press had been invented. This enabled Tyndale and his followers to produce copies of the English Bible faster than they could be found and destroyed. Tyndale was burned at the stake. [Note 7]

Forty-seven years later (1582), the first Catholic translation of the New Testament into English was published. The Catholic translation of the Old Testament was published in 1609. These translations were not from the original Greek and Hebrew. Rather, they were from a Latin version of the Bible. [Note 8]

ADDING TRADITION TO SCRIPTURE

The Catholic Church officially states that Catholic tradition is equal in authority to the Bible. [Note 9] Catholic tradition consists of various expressions of worship and belief of the Catholic people. [Note 10] It is nebulous. It keeps changing. You cannot find it written in one place. You can't really put your hands on exactly what it is.

For Jesus' evaluation of the religious traditions of his time, read Mark 7:1-13 and Matthew 15:1-9. Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees because their traditions nullified the Word of God. He used Scripture to measure the validity of their religious traditions. He was distressed because the religious leaders of his time considered their traditions to be equal in authority to Scripture. He rebuked them saying, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:8-9) In Mark 7:8, Jesus says, "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the traditions of men". (See Mark 7:6-8.)

FORBIDDING PEOPLE TO
INTERPRET THE BIBLE FOR THEMSELVES

According to the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, Catholics are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without first checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the Catholic bishops interpret Scripture passages, and they are to accept what the bishops teach "with docility" as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or to follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. [Note 11]

CROWDING OUT SCRIPTURE

Long before I became a nun I was reading the "Divine Office" (the "Breviary" which is read or sung by priests and monks and nuns). I was told that by doing this I was reading all of the psalms every week. That was partially true. Short psalms were included in their entirety. But we read only portions of the longer psalms. Every week we read those same selected verses again, but we never read the rest of the long psalms. In addition to the psalms, we read short selections from the Old Testament and the New Testament, as well as antiphons (songs or hymns which could be sung or read).

Because I spent so much time reading things from Scripture, I thought that I was familiar with the Bible. But all I was reading was a small portion of it, over and over and over.

It took me over an hour to read the "Divine Office". In addition, I also went to daily Mass, and I often prayed the rosary. In my earlier days I used to read the Bible, but the "Divine Office" and Mass and the rosary took so much time that I stopped reading the Bible.

Jesus told a parable about the sower who sowed the Word of God on different kinds of soil. (Luke 8:5-15) Religious devotions that keep us too busy to read the Bible choke out the Word of God.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060206210308/http://catholicconcerns.com:80/Undermining.html
The Catholic Church hobbled Scripture by keeping t... (show quote)


Thanks for that Rose42 much appreciated.

Reply
Dec 14, 2018 08:41:14   #
Rose42
 
The undermining of scripture is seen in so many places. Easy examples are the many posts trying to justify idol worship. Catholics need to break free.

Reply
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Faith, Religion, Spirituality
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2024 IDF International Technologies, Inc.