Explaining to Protestants: That praying before a statue of Mary doesn't constitute idolatry, Answering Questions About the Catholic Church
Dec 5, 2018 17:12:18 #
08/04/2011How can I explain that praying before a statue of Mary doesn't constitute idolatry?
Peggy Frye
www.catholic.com/qa/how-can-i-explain-that-praying-before-a-statue-of-mary-doesnt-constitute-idolatry
1. How can I explain that praying before a statue of Mary doesn't constitute idolatry?
Full of Question I took my Evangelical friend to Mass with me last weekend, and after Mass she noticed a woman praying before a statue of Mary.
She took the woman's action as proof that Catholics worship idols.
I've given her all the arguments in your tract "Do Catholics Worship Statues?,"
But she still doesn't buy it.
How else can I respond?
Answer Perhaps a little logic will help open some doors.
Ask for her reaction to this comment from a Catholic:
"While I was attending a Protestant service the other day I noticed a woman praying to the Bible!"
What would she say about that characterization?
Would she say the Catholic misconstrued what was going on, that the woman was not praying to the Bible which she held in her hands with her eyes closed and the Bible pressed to her heart as she prayed.
But to the God who inspired the Bible?
No one would jump to the unwarranted conclusion that this woman is treating her Bible as an idol.
So why would she jump to the unwarranted conclusion that the woman she saw treated the statue of Mary as an idol ?
The same goes for having a picture of a deceased relative on the mantelpiece of her home.
Would any reasonable person accuse her of ancestor worship?
Of course not, so encourage her to use the same logic when she watches Catholics pray.
You might want to read Patrick Madrid’s book, Search and Rescue: How to Bring Your Family and Friends Into, or Back Into, the Catholic Church.
2. Is veneration of relics condemned by the Bible?
Full Question
A Jehovah's Witness commented that the veneration of relics is superstitious and condemned by the Bible. I had no idea how to respond.
Answer
You might start by saying that although the ancient Christian practice of venerating the relics of saints, especially martyrs, can be abused in a superstitious way by some who misunderstand the purpose of relics, it is not itself in any way superstitious.
A relic is an object, such as a piece of clothing or, more commonly, a piece of bone from a saint's body, which has spiritual value because it belonged to one of God's saints.
The Bible records many accounts of the value of relics and even episodes of miraculous events connected with them.
"People brought to [Jesus] all who were sick and begged him that they might only touch the tassel on his cloak, and as many as touched it were healed."
Mt 14:35-36; cf. Mk 6:56; Lk 8:43-44
It was not uncommon for ordinary objects, like the tassel on the Lord's cloak, to have miraculous characteristics.
Look also at Acts 5:15, where even Peter's shadow could cause miraculous healings.
Regarding the relics of saints, especially martyrs (about whom the Bible says, "Precious in the eyes of the Lord is the death of his holy ones."
Ps 116:15, look at 2 Kings 13:21:
Elisha died and was buried.
At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band.
So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha and everyone went off.
But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet.
Peggy Frye
www.catholic.com/qa/how-can-i-explain-that-praying-before-a-statue-of-mary-doesnt-constitute-idolatry
1. How can I explain that praying before a statue of Mary doesn't constitute idolatry?
Full of Question I took my Evangelical friend to Mass with me last weekend, and after Mass she noticed a woman praying before a statue of Mary.
She took the woman's action as proof that Catholics worship idols.
I've given her all the arguments in your tract "Do Catholics Worship Statues?,"
But she still doesn't buy it.
How else can I respond?
Answer Perhaps a little logic will help open some doors.
Ask for her reaction to this comment from a Catholic:
"While I was attending a Protestant service the other day I noticed a woman praying to the Bible!"
What would she say about that characterization?
Would she say the Catholic misconstrued what was going on, that the woman was not praying to the Bible which she held in her hands with her eyes closed and the Bible pressed to her heart as she prayed.
But to the God who inspired the Bible?
No one would jump to the unwarranted conclusion that this woman is treating her Bible as an idol.
So why would she jump to the unwarranted conclusion that the woman she saw treated the statue of Mary as an idol ?
The same goes for having a picture of a deceased relative on the mantelpiece of her home.
Would any reasonable person accuse her of ancestor worship?
Of course not, so encourage her to use the same logic when she watches Catholics pray.
You might want to read Patrick Madrid’s book, Search and Rescue: How to Bring Your Family and Friends Into, or Back Into, the Catholic Church.
2. Is veneration of relics condemned by the Bible?
Full Question
A Jehovah's Witness commented that the veneration of relics is superstitious and condemned by the Bible. I had no idea how to respond.
Answer
You might start by saying that although the ancient Christian practice of venerating the relics of saints, especially martyrs, can be abused in a superstitious way by some who misunderstand the purpose of relics, it is not itself in any way superstitious.
A relic is an object, such as a piece of clothing or, more commonly, a piece of bone from a saint's body, which has spiritual value because it belonged to one of God's saints.
The Bible records many accounts of the value of relics and even episodes of miraculous events connected with them.
"People brought to [Jesus] all who were sick and begged him that they might only touch the tassel on his cloak, and as many as touched it were healed."
Mt 14:35-36; cf. Mk 6:56; Lk 8:43-44
It was not uncommon for ordinary objects, like the tassel on the Lord's cloak, to have miraculous characteristics.
Look also at Acts 5:15, where even Peter's shadow could cause miraculous healings.
Regarding the relics of saints, especially martyrs (about whom the Bible says, "Precious in the eyes of the Lord is the death of his holy ones."
Ps 116:15, look at 2 Kings 13:21:
Elisha died and was buried.
At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band.
So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha and everyone went off.
But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet.
Dec 5, 2018 17:29:50 #
Praying to Mary is idolatry. It's pretty cut and dried. There are numerous verses in the Bible that show it.
Does the Roman Catholic Church promote idolatry? According to the scripture and its own practices, yes it does.
Roman Catholics have an extremely high view of Mary and have attributed some astounding characteristics and abilities to her, such as her interceding for us, atoning for us, and delivering our souls from damnation (documented below). Protestants consider this elevation to be not only extreme but also idolatrous since they attribute to Mary what should only be said of God. Roman Catholicism responds by saying it venerates Mary and gets its doctrines on her from Sacred Tradition, which is an "inanimate thing passed from hand to hand,"1. Alright, so which is it, the sin of idolatry or the blessing of veneration?
The Roman Catholic church teaches there is a difference between idolatry and veneration. It says,
"Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God . . . An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practised [sic] in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows "that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them."2
The Roman Catholic Church has defined idolatry far too narrowly in its favor. Let's consider two things.
Divine Worship
First, notice that it says "divine worship" should be given only to God. This works out to mean that other forms of worship to Mary are okay as long as it isn't "divine worship." But what is "divine worship?" After searching through the Vatican Website3, the Catholic Encyclopedia4, the entire Council of Trent5, Vatican II6 and the Catechism of the Catholic Church,7, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,8 and the Catholic Dictionary9 the best I could find was, "Now the divine worship is directed to the glorification of God."10 That is a nice and brief comment, but it isn't descriptive enough. Why is it that in all these sources Divine Worship is not defined? Perhaps it is because offering a strict definition might make them vulnerable to criticism concerning their worship of Mary.
Catholicism says that divine worship is for God only, yet it also says it is okay to bow down before a statue of Mary, pray to Mary, believe that Mary delivers us from death, believe Mary atoned for us, etc., as long as you don't give her "divine worship." In other words, you can do almost anything worship-wise to Mary as you would to God - just don't call it "divine worship."
Exodus 20:5 and "worship"
The Hebrew word for "worship" in Exodus 20:5 (the Ten Commandments) is "shachah" שָׁחָה. Take a look at what the Strong's Enhanced Lexicon says about the word.
"172 occurrences; AV translates as “worship” 99 times, “bow” 31 times, “bow down” 18 times, “obeisance” nine times, “reverence” five times, “fall down” three times, “themselves” twice, “stoop” once, “crouch” once, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 to bow down. 1a (Qal) to bow down. 1b (Hiphil) to depress (fig). 1c (Hithpael). 1c1 to bow down, prostrate oneself. 1c1a before superior in homage. 1c1b before God in worship. 1c1c before false gods. 1c1d before angel."11
Bowing down is part of the act of worship - as you can see above. Clearly, Roman Catholics who bow down before statues of Mary (and others) are risking breaking the commandment not to worship other gods and not to bow down before idols. The Catholic Church responds by saying that as long as it isn't divine worship given to Mary, it is okay. But this is nothing more than a word game. They do the same thing to Mary that they would to God and excuse it by saying that it isn't divine worship. The funny thing is that God doesn't make the same distinction as the Catholics do. God says don't do it. Don't bow down before images (Lev. 26:1).
Idolatry
Second, the Roman Catholic definition of idolatry used above says "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers." Again after searching all the sources listed above, divine powers is not defined. The best I found was "divine power preserved Christ's body from corruption." (CCC 627) and "Divine power is inexhaustible" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Omnipotence). Roman Catholicism does not attribute divinity to Mary (at least, not yet), but it does attribute divine powers to her: atonement of sin12; divine access to God13, delivering our souls from death14; her intercession brings us salvation15, etc.
Such magnificent attributes of Mary are found nowhere in Scripture. Let me say this again, none of these things are found in God's inspired word. They are, however, said to be found in the Roman Catholic Church's Sacred Tradition. I cannot help considering what God said through the Apostle Paul about not exceeding what is written in the word of God.
"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other." (1 Cor. 4:6).16
So, the Roman Catholic Church is commanded by Scripture to not exceed what is written in God's word. Has it done that? Has it exceeded the limits of Scripture? Yes, it has.
In the Bible, NASB, the word idol (and its cognates idols and idolatry) occurs 175 times in 162 verses. I read every one of the 175 verses, and not once did I find a reference to the idolators actually considering the idols in their hands and/or to which they bowed as actually being alive because that is what it would mean to claim that they were divine. Remember, Catholicism says, "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers."17. But this is wrong. You see, the Catholic Church is stacking the definitional deck in its favor so as to separate itself from the biblical teaching of idolatry and maintain its practice of bowing down before various statues and praying to saints.
But saying the Roman Catholic Church is practicing idolatry doesn't prove anything. So, let's turn to God's word and take a look at the examples of idolatry and then see if the Roman Catholic Church practices the same thing concerning Mary.
For the table showing how the Catholic church practices idolatry and Scriptural references -
https://carm.org/roman-catholicism-mary-idolatry
Does the Roman Catholic Church promote idolatry? According to the scripture and its own practices, yes it does.
Roman Catholics have an extremely high view of Mary and have attributed some astounding characteristics and abilities to her, such as her interceding for us, atoning for us, and delivering our souls from damnation (documented below). Protestants consider this elevation to be not only extreme but also idolatrous since they attribute to Mary what should only be said of God. Roman Catholicism responds by saying it venerates Mary and gets its doctrines on her from Sacred Tradition, which is an "inanimate thing passed from hand to hand,"1. Alright, so which is it, the sin of idolatry or the blessing of veneration?
The Roman Catholic church teaches there is a difference between idolatry and veneration. It says,
"Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God . . . An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practised [sic] in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows "that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them."2
The Roman Catholic Church has defined idolatry far too narrowly in its favor. Let's consider two things.
Divine Worship
First, notice that it says "divine worship" should be given only to God. This works out to mean that other forms of worship to Mary are okay as long as it isn't "divine worship." But what is "divine worship?" After searching through the Vatican Website3, the Catholic Encyclopedia4, the entire Council of Trent5, Vatican II6 and the Catechism of the Catholic Church,7, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,8 and the Catholic Dictionary9 the best I could find was, "Now the divine worship is directed to the glorification of God."10 That is a nice and brief comment, but it isn't descriptive enough. Why is it that in all these sources Divine Worship is not defined? Perhaps it is because offering a strict definition might make them vulnerable to criticism concerning their worship of Mary.
Catholicism says that divine worship is for God only, yet it also says it is okay to bow down before a statue of Mary, pray to Mary, believe that Mary delivers us from death, believe Mary atoned for us, etc., as long as you don't give her "divine worship." In other words, you can do almost anything worship-wise to Mary as you would to God - just don't call it "divine worship."
Exodus 20:5 and "worship"
The Hebrew word for "worship" in Exodus 20:5 (the Ten Commandments) is "shachah" שָׁחָה. Take a look at what the Strong's Enhanced Lexicon says about the word.
"172 occurrences; AV translates as “worship” 99 times, “bow” 31 times, “bow down” 18 times, “obeisance” nine times, “reverence” five times, “fall down” three times, “themselves” twice, “stoop” once, “crouch” once, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 to bow down. 1a (Qal) to bow down. 1b (Hiphil) to depress (fig). 1c (Hithpael). 1c1 to bow down, prostrate oneself. 1c1a before superior in homage. 1c1b before God in worship. 1c1c before false gods. 1c1d before angel."11
Bowing down is part of the act of worship - as you can see above. Clearly, Roman Catholics who bow down before statues of Mary (and others) are risking breaking the commandment not to worship other gods and not to bow down before idols. The Catholic Church responds by saying that as long as it isn't divine worship given to Mary, it is okay. But this is nothing more than a word game. They do the same thing to Mary that they would to God and excuse it by saying that it isn't divine worship. The funny thing is that God doesn't make the same distinction as the Catholics do. God says don't do it. Don't bow down before images (Lev. 26:1).
Idolatry
Second, the Roman Catholic definition of idolatry used above says "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers." Again after searching all the sources listed above, divine powers is not defined. The best I found was "divine power preserved Christ's body from corruption." (CCC 627) and "Divine power is inexhaustible" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Omnipotence). Roman Catholicism does not attribute divinity to Mary (at least, not yet), but it does attribute divine powers to her: atonement of sin12; divine access to God13, delivering our souls from death14; her intercession brings us salvation15, etc.
Such magnificent attributes of Mary are found nowhere in Scripture. Let me say this again, none of these things are found in God's inspired word. They are, however, said to be found in the Roman Catholic Church's Sacred Tradition. I cannot help considering what God said through the Apostle Paul about not exceeding what is written in the word of God.
"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other." (1 Cor. 4:6).16
So, the Roman Catholic Church is commanded by Scripture to not exceed what is written in God's word. Has it done that? Has it exceeded the limits of Scripture? Yes, it has.
In the Bible, NASB, the word idol (and its cognates idols and idolatry) occurs 175 times in 162 verses. I read every one of the 175 verses, and not once did I find a reference to the idolators actually considering the idols in their hands and/or to which they bowed as actually being alive because that is what it would mean to claim that they were divine. Remember, Catholicism says, "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers."17. But this is wrong. You see, the Catholic Church is stacking the definitional deck in its favor so as to separate itself from the biblical teaching of idolatry and maintain its practice of bowing down before various statues and praying to saints.
But saying the Roman Catholic Church is practicing idolatry doesn't prove anything. So, let's turn to God's word and take a look at the examples of idolatry and then see if the Roman Catholic Church practices the same thing concerning Mary.
For the table showing how the Catholic church practices idolatry and Scriptural references -
https://carm.org/roman-catholicism-mary-idolatry
Dec 5, 2018 17:46:02 #
3. Do Catholics Worship Statues?
"Do Catholics worship statues!"
People still make this ridiculous claim.
Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating God’s commandment:
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
You shall not bow down to them or serve them"
Ex. 20:4–5
"Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold."
Ex. 32:31
It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it.
But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses,
(both good and bad) of statues.
Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement:
"God has forbidden the use of images in worship."
281
Yet if people were to "search the scriptures"
John 5:38-40 New International Version (NIV)
38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
39 You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life.
These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
John 5:38-40
They would find the opposite is true.
God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues.
Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!
God Said To Make Them
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.
For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.
Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be."
Ex. 25:18–20
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord.
18 and the weight of the refined gold for the altar of incense.
He also gave him the plan for the chariot, that is, the cherubim of gold that spread their wings and overshadow the ark of the covenant of the Lord.
19 “All this,” David said, “I have in writing as a result of the Lord’s hand on me, and he enabled me to understand all the details of the plan.”
1 Chronicles 28:18–19
David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18;
Describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."
The Religious Uses of Images
During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live.
So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live."
Num. 21:8–9
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted.
Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them.
Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate.
Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children.
Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.
If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics.
But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images.
If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned.
But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.
It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry.
Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed.
2 Kgs. 18:4
What About Bowing?
Sometimes anti-Catholics cite,
Deuteronomy 5:9
Where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them."
Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.
Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship.
In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake).
Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god.
In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
Hiding the Second Commandment?
Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church "hides" the second commandment.
This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me."
Ex. 20:3
And the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain."
Ex. 20:7
From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues.
But this is false.
Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.
In Exodus 20:2–17,
Which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements.
To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this.
Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives.
"You shall have no other gods before me."
Ex. 20:3
And "You shall not make for yourself a graven image."
Ex. 20:4
The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering.
Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.
Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula.
For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as,
"Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy," though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses.
Ex. 20:8–11
When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as "You shall have no other gods before me."
This is no attempt to "hide" the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels).
It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.
The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history.
The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church.
It is also that of the Lutheran confession.
ccc 2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history.
The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church.
It is also that of the Lutheran confessions.
The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.
Catechism of Catholic Church 2066
The Form of God?
Some anti-Catholics appeal to Deuteronomy.
4:15–18
In their attack on religious statues:
"Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth."
We’ve already shown that God doesn’t prohibit the making of statues or images of various creatures for religious purposes
cf. 1 Kgs. 6:29–32, 8:6–66; 2 Chr. 3:7–14
But what about statues or images that represent God?
Many Protestants would say that’s wrong because Deuteronomy 4 says the Israelites did not see God under any form when he made the covenant with them, therefore we should not make symbolic representations of God either. But does Deuteronomy 4 forbid such representations?
The Answer Is No
Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form.
Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object
e.g., a bull or the sun
But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in.
Daniel 7:9
"As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire."
Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.
The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus.
Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32
And as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:1–4
Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.
But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself.
Paul said, "He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
Christ is the tangible, divine "icon" of the unseen, infinite God.
We read that when the magi were "going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him.
Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh."
Matt. 2:11
Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.
The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ.
For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ.
Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images:
Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes.
Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."
Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ.
It’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God.
That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.
Idolatry Condemned by the Church
Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry.
The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.
The Second Council of Nicaea
AD 787
Which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said,
"The one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . .
To this gracious offer some people paid no attention;
Being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . .
And they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."
The Catechism of the Council of Trent
AD566
Taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them."
AD 374
"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense.
An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."
CCC 2114
https://www.catholicity.com/catechism/no_other_gods.html (ccc 2110-2114) Superstition and Irreligion, Idolatry
The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.
What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor.
The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice.
Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.
"Do Catholics worship statues!"
People still make this ridiculous claim.
Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating God’s commandment:
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
You shall not bow down to them or serve them"
Ex. 20:4–5
"Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold."
Ex. 32:31
It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it.
But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses,
(both good and bad) of statues.
Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement:
"God has forbidden the use of images in worship."
281
Yet if people were to "search the scriptures"
John 5:38-40 New International Version (NIV)
38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
39 You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life.
These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
John 5:38-40
They would find the opposite is true.
God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues.
Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!
God Said To Make Them
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.
For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.
Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be."
Ex. 25:18–20
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord.
18 and the weight of the refined gold for the altar of incense.
He also gave him the plan for the chariot, that is, the cherubim of gold that spread their wings and overshadow the ark of the covenant of the Lord.
19 “All this,” David said, “I have in writing as a result of the Lord’s hand on me, and he enabled me to understand all the details of the plan.”
1 Chronicles 28:18–19
David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18;
Describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."
The Religious Uses of Images
During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live.
So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live."
Num. 21:8–9
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted.
Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them.
Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate.
Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children.
Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.
If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics.
But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images.
If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned.
But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.
It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry.
Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed.
2 Kgs. 18:4
What About Bowing?
Sometimes anti-Catholics cite,
Deuteronomy 5:9
Where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them."
Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.
Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship.
In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake).
Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god.
In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
Hiding the Second Commandment?
Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church "hides" the second commandment.
This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me."
Ex. 20:3
And the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain."
Ex. 20:7
From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues.
But this is false.
Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.
In Exodus 20:2–17,
Which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements.
To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this.
Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives.
"You shall have no other gods before me."
Ex. 20:3
And "You shall not make for yourself a graven image."
Ex. 20:4
The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering.
Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.
Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula.
For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as,
"Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy," though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses.
Ex. 20:8–11
When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as "You shall have no other gods before me."
This is no attempt to "hide" the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels).
It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.
The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history.
The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church.
It is also that of the Lutheran confession.
ccc 2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history.
The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church.
It is also that of the Lutheran confessions.
The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.
Catechism of Catholic Church 2066
The Form of God?
Some anti-Catholics appeal to Deuteronomy.
4:15–18
In their attack on religious statues:
"Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth."
We’ve already shown that God doesn’t prohibit the making of statues or images of various creatures for religious purposes
cf. 1 Kgs. 6:29–32, 8:6–66; 2 Chr. 3:7–14
But what about statues or images that represent God?
Many Protestants would say that’s wrong because Deuteronomy 4 says the Israelites did not see God under any form when he made the covenant with them, therefore we should not make symbolic representations of God either. But does Deuteronomy 4 forbid such representations?
The Answer Is No
Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form.
Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object
e.g., a bull or the sun
But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in.
Daniel 7:9
"As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire."
Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.
The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus.
Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32
And as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:1–4
Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.
But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself.
Paul said, "He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
Christ is the tangible, divine "icon" of the unseen, infinite God.
We read that when the magi were "going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him.
Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh."
Matt. 2:11
Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.
The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ.
For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ.
Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images:
Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes.
Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."
Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ.
It’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God.
That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.
Idolatry Condemned by the Church
Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry.
The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.
The Second Council of Nicaea
AD 787
Which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said,
"The one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . .
To this gracious offer some people paid no attention;
Being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . .
And they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."
The Catechism of the Council of Trent
AD566
Taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them."
AD 374
"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense.
An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."
CCC 2114
https://www.catholicity.com/catechism/no_other_gods.html (ccc 2110-2114) Superstition and Irreligion, Idolatry
The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.
What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor.
The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice.
Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.
Dec 5, 2018 17:48:20 #
"The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. "
Only in connection with idolatry.
Only in connection with idolatry.
Dec 5, 2018 18:00:57 #
4. Relics
Many non-Catholics particularly shy away from the sacramental, aspects of Catholicism—and not from the seven sacraments only.
What they dislike is the mixing of spirit and matter, the gift of something spiritual—grace—by means of physical things.
That, after all, is what the sacraments are.
This tendency to drive a wedge between spirit and matter stems from age-old heresies known as Dualism, Marcionism, and Manichaeanism.
Marcion in particular taught that the God of the Old Testament was evil in creating matter, but the God of the New Testament is a different and good God, who raises us to the level of spirit.
The less one is entrapped by matter, the closer one is to God.
Needless to say, this does not fit well with the sacraments—or with the incarnation!
In the sacraments, common material things, such as water, wine, bread, oil, and the imposition of hands, result in the giving of grace.
Related to the sacraments are the sacramentals, objects such as medals, blessed palms, holy water, and ashes.
Their use can lead people to receive or respond to grace. Many non-Catholics wrongly believe that the Church teaches that these sacramentals actually provide grace.
But one of the biggest problems for non-Catholics are the relics of saints;
The bones, ashes, clothing, or personal possessions of the apostles and other holy people which are held in reverence by the Church and sometimes associated with miraculous healings and other acts of God.
This is how Bart Brewer, ex-priest and head of Mission to Catholics International, phrases the complaint in his autobiography, Pilgrimage From Rome:
"Another dogma that has bothered Catholics for centuries is the veneration of relics and the claims that they have magical powers.
Even Martin Luther wondered how there could be twenty-six apostles buried in Germany, when there were only twelve in the entire Bible !
It is said that if all the pieces of the cross displayed in Catholic churches were assembled together, it would take a ten-ton truck to carry them.
It is clear that most ‘relics’ are frauds.
Furthermore, there is nothing in the Bible that supports the veneration of relics, even if they are genuine"
page 132
This is a unique paragraph in that each sentence in it contains one or two blunders.
Let’s go through them.
1. The first is the claim that the veneration of relics has "bothered Catholics for centuries."
Considering the high regard Catholics have had for relics throughout the years, this is absurd.
It hasn’t been Catholics who have been bothered—it has been non-Catholics (and ex-Catholics).
What’s more, the Church does not claim that relics have "magical powers."
Note that Brewer cites no Catholic work which makes such a claim—because there isn’t any.
The sacramental system is the opposite of magic.
In magic, something material is regarded as the cause of something spiritual; in other words, a lower cause is expected to produce a higher effect.
No Magic in Sacraments
The sacraments (and, derivatively, sacramentals and relics) don’t compel God to work in a certain way.
Their use depends on God, who established their efficacy, so their effects are divine, not natural, in their origin.
It is God who sanctions the use of relics; it is not a matter of men "overpowering" God through their own powers or the powers of nature, which is what magic amounts to.
When Jesus healed the blind man in.
John 9:1-7,
Did the Lord use magic mud and spittle?
Was it actually a magic potion he mixed in the clay, or was it simply that Jesus saw fit to use matter in association with the conferral of his grace ?
The Lord is no dualist.
He made matter, he loves matter, and he had no qualms about becoming matter himself to accomplish our redemption.
In the next sentence Brewer casts ridicule on relics by referring to Luther’s comment, but the rejoinder should have been obvious to him.
Apart from the fact that there are more than twelve apostles mentioned in the Bible (there are at least sixteen, counting Paul, Barnabas, James the Just, and Matthias), there is no reason to think that the whole of a saint’s skeleton must be kept in one reliquary.
In fact, from what we know about the way early Christians preserved the bones of those killed during the persecutions, that would be unusual.
More commonly, the saint’s bones were divided up, so various communities could have a portion of his relics:
The skull here, a hand there, other bones elsewhere.
So it would be proper for several cities to claim to have the relics of a single saint.
Ten-Ton Truck or Warship?
Now for the classic argument.
As Brewer phrases it, if all the alleged pieces of the True Cross were gathered together, "it would take a ten-ton truck to carry them."
That’s a modern way to put the charge.
It used to be said the pieces would be enough to build a warship, but warships aren’t made out of wood any longer.
Either way, the charge is nonsense.
In 1870 a Frenchman, Rohault de Fleury, catalogued all the relics of the True Cross, including relics that were said to have existed but were lost.
He measured the existing relics and estimated the volume of the missing ones.
Then he added up the figures and discovered that the fragments, if glued together, would not have made up more than one-third of a cross.
The scandal wasn’t that there was too much wood.
The scandal was that most of the True Cross, after being unearthed in Jerusalem in the fourth century, was lost again!
Brewer’s next charge is this:
"It is clear that most ‘relics’ are frauds."
It isn’t clear at all.
Certainly nothing he said indicates that.
Have there been any frauds ? Sure.
But in most cases, relics are either known to be genuine or there is some reason to think they may be genuine, even if complete proof is impossible.
Take the famous Shroud of Turin, which scientists have been examining for some years.
The scientists admit their experiments cannot establish that the Shroud is the actual burial cloth of Christ—they admit that is impossible—but they also say they might be able to eliminate the possibility of forgery.
That is, they apparently are demonstrating that the Shroud was a burial cloth that was wrapped around someone who was crucified in the same manner as Christ, perhaps at about the same time he was crucified (there is considerable dispute about the age of the Shroud, and the carbon-14 tests that have been performed on the Shroud have been defective), and in the same area he was crucified.
Most relics cannot be fakes because most relics are the bones of ordinary saints of history who were well known and whose remains were never lost in the first place.
The Church has never pronounced that any particular relic — even that of the cross — is genuine.
But, the Church does approve of honor being given to the relics that can with reasonable probability be considered authentic.
Is There Room for Doubt?
Will there always be room for doubt for those who seek it? Sure.
And if that is the case with the Shroud of Turin, it is more the case with most other relics.
The skeptic will always be able to say, "This might not have been so-and-so’s," or "You might be mistaken," and we’d have to admit that’s true.
'There might have been a mistake, or fakes might have been substituted for the real relics.
We evaluate relics the same way we evaluate the bona fides of anything else.
Did George Washington really sleep in a particular bed?
We have to do some detective work to find out.
We may never know for sure.
We may have to rely on probabilities.
On the other hand, we might have incontrovertible proof, that could be disbelieved only by the skeptic who insists George Washington never existed at all.
It’s the same with relics.
Some are beyond doubt.
Others are so highly probable that it would be rash to doubt.
Others are merely probable.
And some, yes, are improbable (though we wouldn’t want to toss out even most of those, in case we err and toss out something that really is a relic).
No Veneration?
Finally, Brewer claims that "there is nothing in the Bible that supports the veneration of relics, even if they are genuine."
Again, not so.
One of the most moving accounts of the veneration of relics is that of the very body of Christ itself.
Rather than leaving his body on the cross, to be taken down and disposed of by the Romans (as was the customary practice), Joseph of Arimathea courageously interceded with Pilate for Christ’s body.
Mark 15:43, John 19:38
He donated his own, newly hewn tomb as Christ’s resting place.
Matt. 27:60
Nicodemus came and donated over a hundred pounds of spices to wrap inside Jesus’ grave clothes.
John 19:39
That amount of spices being used only for the most honored dead.
And after he was buried, the women went to reverently visit the tomb.
Matthew 28:1
And to further anoint Christ’s body with spices even though it had already been sealed inside the tomb.
Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1
These acts of reverence were more than just the usual courtesy shown to the remains of the dead; they were special respect shown to the body of a most holy man—in this case, the holiest man who has ever lived, for he was God Incarnate.
Relics in Early Christianity
The veneration of relics is seen explicitly as early as the account of Polycarp’s martyrdom written by the Smyrnaeans in A.D. 156.
In it, the Christians describe the events following his burning at the stake: "We took up his bones, which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place, where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy and to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom."
In speaking of the veneration of relics in the early Church, the anti-Catholic historian Adolph Harnack writes, ". . .
No Church doctor of repute restricted it.
All of them rather, even the Cappadocians, countenanced it.
The numerous miracles which were wrought by bones and relics seemed to confirm their worship.
The Church therefore would not give up the practice, although a violent attack was made upon it by a few cultured heathens and besides by the Manichaeans."
Harnack, History of Dogma, tr., IV, 313
In the fourth century the great biblical scholar, Jerome, declared:
"We do not worship, we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore him whose martyrs they are."
Ad Riparium, I, P.L., XXII, 907
Relics in Scripture
Keep in mind what the Church says about relics. It doesn’t say there is some magical power in them.
There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or water from Lourdes, that has any curative ability.
The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.
The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life:
"So Elisha died, and they buried him.
Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year.
And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha;
And as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet."
2 Kgs. 13:20-21
This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!
Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak.
Matt. 9:20-22
And the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them. Acts 5:14-16
"And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them."
Acts 19:11-12
If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are ?
In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones.
In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures.
There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice.
If you reject all Catholic relics today as frauds, you should also reject these biblical accounts as frauds.
Many non-Catholics particularly shy away from the sacramental, aspects of Catholicism—and not from the seven sacraments only.
What they dislike is the mixing of spirit and matter, the gift of something spiritual—grace—by means of physical things.
That, after all, is what the sacraments are.
This tendency to drive a wedge between spirit and matter stems from age-old heresies known as Dualism, Marcionism, and Manichaeanism.
Marcion in particular taught that the God of the Old Testament was evil in creating matter, but the God of the New Testament is a different and good God, who raises us to the level of spirit.
The less one is entrapped by matter, the closer one is to God.
Needless to say, this does not fit well with the sacraments—or with the incarnation!
In the sacraments, common material things, such as water, wine, bread, oil, and the imposition of hands, result in the giving of grace.
Related to the sacraments are the sacramentals, objects such as medals, blessed palms, holy water, and ashes.
Their use can lead people to receive or respond to grace. Many non-Catholics wrongly believe that the Church teaches that these sacramentals actually provide grace.
But one of the biggest problems for non-Catholics are the relics of saints;
The bones, ashes, clothing, or personal possessions of the apostles and other holy people which are held in reverence by the Church and sometimes associated with miraculous healings and other acts of God.
This is how Bart Brewer, ex-priest and head of Mission to Catholics International, phrases the complaint in his autobiography, Pilgrimage From Rome:
"Another dogma that has bothered Catholics for centuries is the veneration of relics and the claims that they have magical powers.
Even Martin Luther wondered how there could be twenty-six apostles buried in Germany, when there were only twelve in the entire Bible !
It is said that if all the pieces of the cross displayed in Catholic churches were assembled together, it would take a ten-ton truck to carry them.
It is clear that most ‘relics’ are frauds.
Furthermore, there is nothing in the Bible that supports the veneration of relics, even if they are genuine"
page 132
This is a unique paragraph in that each sentence in it contains one or two blunders.
Let’s go through them.
1. The first is the claim that the veneration of relics has "bothered Catholics for centuries."
Considering the high regard Catholics have had for relics throughout the years, this is absurd.
It hasn’t been Catholics who have been bothered—it has been non-Catholics (and ex-Catholics).
What’s more, the Church does not claim that relics have "magical powers."
Note that Brewer cites no Catholic work which makes such a claim—because there isn’t any.
The sacramental system is the opposite of magic.
In magic, something material is regarded as the cause of something spiritual; in other words, a lower cause is expected to produce a higher effect.
No Magic in Sacraments
The sacraments (and, derivatively, sacramentals and relics) don’t compel God to work in a certain way.
Their use depends on God, who established their efficacy, so their effects are divine, not natural, in their origin.
It is God who sanctions the use of relics; it is not a matter of men "overpowering" God through their own powers or the powers of nature, which is what magic amounts to.
When Jesus healed the blind man in.
John 9:1-7,
Did the Lord use magic mud and spittle?
Was it actually a magic potion he mixed in the clay, or was it simply that Jesus saw fit to use matter in association with the conferral of his grace ?
The Lord is no dualist.
He made matter, he loves matter, and he had no qualms about becoming matter himself to accomplish our redemption.
In the next sentence Brewer casts ridicule on relics by referring to Luther’s comment, but the rejoinder should have been obvious to him.
Apart from the fact that there are more than twelve apostles mentioned in the Bible (there are at least sixteen, counting Paul, Barnabas, James the Just, and Matthias), there is no reason to think that the whole of a saint’s skeleton must be kept in one reliquary.
In fact, from what we know about the way early Christians preserved the bones of those killed during the persecutions, that would be unusual.
More commonly, the saint’s bones were divided up, so various communities could have a portion of his relics:
The skull here, a hand there, other bones elsewhere.
So it would be proper for several cities to claim to have the relics of a single saint.
Ten-Ton Truck or Warship?
Now for the classic argument.
As Brewer phrases it, if all the alleged pieces of the True Cross were gathered together, "it would take a ten-ton truck to carry them."
That’s a modern way to put the charge.
It used to be said the pieces would be enough to build a warship, but warships aren’t made out of wood any longer.
Either way, the charge is nonsense.
In 1870 a Frenchman, Rohault de Fleury, catalogued all the relics of the True Cross, including relics that were said to have existed but were lost.
He measured the existing relics and estimated the volume of the missing ones.
Then he added up the figures and discovered that the fragments, if glued together, would not have made up more than one-third of a cross.
The scandal wasn’t that there was too much wood.
The scandal was that most of the True Cross, after being unearthed in Jerusalem in the fourth century, was lost again!
Brewer’s next charge is this:
"It is clear that most ‘relics’ are frauds."
It isn’t clear at all.
Certainly nothing he said indicates that.
Have there been any frauds ? Sure.
But in most cases, relics are either known to be genuine or there is some reason to think they may be genuine, even if complete proof is impossible.
Take the famous Shroud of Turin, which scientists have been examining for some years.
The scientists admit their experiments cannot establish that the Shroud is the actual burial cloth of Christ—they admit that is impossible—but they also say they might be able to eliminate the possibility of forgery.
That is, they apparently are demonstrating that the Shroud was a burial cloth that was wrapped around someone who was crucified in the same manner as Christ, perhaps at about the same time he was crucified (there is considerable dispute about the age of the Shroud, and the carbon-14 tests that have been performed on the Shroud have been defective), and in the same area he was crucified.
Most relics cannot be fakes because most relics are the bones of ordinary saints of history who were well known and whose remains were never lost in the first place.
The Church has never pronounced that any particular relic — even that of the cross — is genuine.
But, the Church does approve of honor being given to the relics that can with reasonable probability be considered authentic.
Is There Room for Doubt?
Will there always be room for doubt for those who seek it? Sure.
And if that is the case with the Shroud of Turin, it is more the case with most other relics.
The skeptic will always be able to say, "This might not have been so-and-so’s," or "You might be mistaken," and we’d have to admit that’s true.
'There might have been a mistake, or fakes might have been substituted for the real relics.
We evaluate relics the same way we evaluate the bona fides of anything else.
Did George Washington really sleep in a particular bed?
We have to do some detective work to find out.
We may never know for sure.
We may have to rely on probabilities.
On the other hand, we might have incontrovertible proof, that could be disbelieved only by the skeptic who insists George Washington never existed at all.
It’s the same with relics.
Some are beyond doubt.
Others are so highly probable that it would be rash to doubt.
Others are merely probable.
And some, yes, are improbable (though we wouldn’t want to toss out even most of those, in case we err and toss out something that really is a relic).
No Veneration?
Finally, Brewer claims that "there is nothing in the Bible that supports the veneration of relics, even if they are genuine."
Again, not so.
One of the most moving accounts of the veneration of relics is that of the very body of Christ itself.
Rather than leaving his body on the cross, to be taken down and disposed of by the Romans (as was the customary practice), Joseph of Arimathea courageously interceded with Pilate for Christ’s body.
Mark 15:43, John 19:38
He donated his own, newly hewn tomb as Christ’s resting place.
Matt. 27:60
Nicodemus came and donated over a hundred pounds of spices to wrap inside Jesus’ grave clothes.
John 19:39
That amount of spices being used only for the most honored dead.
And after he was buried, the women went to reverently visit the tomb.
Matthew 28:1
And to further anoint Christ’s body with spices even though it had already been sealed inside the tomb.
Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1
These acts of reverence were more than just the usual courtesy shown to the remains of the dead; they were special respect shown to the body of a most holy man—in this case, the holiest man who has ever lived, for he was God Incarnate.
Relics in Early Christianity
The veneration of relics is seen explicitly as early as the account of Polycarp’s martyrdom written by the Smyrnaeans in A.D. 156.
In it, the Christians describe the events following his burning at the stake: "We took up his bones, which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place, where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy and to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom."
In speaking of the veneration of relics in the early Church, the anti-Catholic historian Adolph Harnack writes, ". . .
No Church doctor of repute restricted it.
All of them rather, even the Cappadocians, countenanced it.
The numerous miracles which were wrought by bones and relics seemed to confirm their worship.
The Church therefore would not give up the practice, although a violent attack was made upon it by a few cultured heathens and besides by the Manichaeans."
Harnack, History of Dogma, tr., IV, 313
In the fourth century the great biblical scholar, Jerome, declared:
"We do not worship, we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore him whose martyrs they are."
Ad Riparium, I, P.L., XXII, 907
Relics in Scripture
Keep in mind what the Church says about relics. It doesn’t say there is some magical power in them.
There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or water from Lourdes, that has any curative ability.
The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.
The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life:
"So Elisha died, and they buried him.
Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year.
And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha;
And as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet."
2 Kgs. 13:20-21
This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!
Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak.
Matt. 9:20-22
And the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them. Acts 5:14-16
"And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them."
Acts 19:11-12
If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are ?
In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones.
In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures.
There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice.
If you reject all Catholic relics today as frauds, you should also reject these biblical accounts as frauds.
Dec 5, 2018 18:50:35 #
Doc110 wrote:
Ask for her reaction to this comment from a Catholic:
"While I was attending a Protestant service the other day I noticed a woman praying to the Bible!"
What would she say about that characterization?
"While I was attending a Protestant service the other day I noticed a woman praying to the Bible!"
What would she say about that characterization?
I have never heard of an instance of a Protestant praying to a bible. But I have first hand knowledge of Catholics praying to statues of Mary or Joseph, two statues that were, when I was growing up, on either side of the altar, right where Jesus was depicted hanging from a cross, something you'll never see in a Protestant church.
Dec 5, 2018 19:54:56 #
mwdegutis wrote:
I have never heard of an instance of a Protestant praying to a bible. But I have first hand knowledge of Catholics praying to statues of Mary or Joseph, two statues that were, when I was growing up, on either side of the altar, right where Jesus was depicted hanging from a cross, something you'll never see in a Protestant church.
========
Why Do We Display Statues?
Of all Catholic devotional items, certainly one of the most distinctive, traditional - and pervasive - is the statue.
For centuries statues have adorned Catholic churches, convents, rectories, homes, and cemeteries. They are cast, carved, or sculpted. They are made of marble or granite, ceramic or plaster, wood or bronze. Some are quite large, like the concrete statue of Christ in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Most are much smaller. Almost every sacred person in the Catholic tradition is depicted in a statue.
Why does the Catholic Church not only allow but promote the practice of owning and displaying statues?
The first reason has to do with the fact that Christianity is an incarnational religion. This means that visible, tangible realities are used either to embody or to represent the divine.
Statues serve as visible reminders of persons who are considered sacred by the Church. Statues help us remember that saints and holy persons are not disembodied angels, but human beings like us.
Statues also serve as reminders that we experience salvation incarnational - in history, in the world, in our own bodies of flesh and blood.
Yet, while statues have incarnational value, we must also keep in mind that their power is merely symbolic. This means that, while statues may certainly serve as powerful reminders of sacred persons, they have no power in themselves. It is precisely their power as symbols that makes statues an element of religious faith rather than superstition.
The belief that spiritual power exists within things themselves, rather than in God, is at the heart of superstition. The Catholic faith holds that all spiritual power belongs to God, and to God alone.
A final reason for the use of statues has to do with the Catholic belief in intercessory prayer. At times we may pray before the statue of a saint because we believe he or she will present our needs to God on our behalf.
This has nothing to do with the attitude that we human beings are unworthy to approach God ourselves. Rather, we are part of a universal community of believers, both living and deceased, who together are seeking greater union with God.
Source: Oblates; May/June 2002; Vol. 59, No. 3
***Note: Another use of statues. During the early years of Biblical history, most people could not read. Those people were able to learn from the displays of statues, that provided them knowledge about the past, their lives and their encounters to be righteous with God. it has been carried forward as a Sacred Tradition from the Apostles.
***Similarly, why do we have statues of our Founders? It is part of history, to portray and remind us of the most valuable services to God and country. But the BLM and ANTIFA are destroying them, to erase history and the past events that happened.
We don't venerate them, but we respect and honor them.
Dec 5, 2018 22:26:50 #
mwdegutis,
Just a poignant Catholic observation, . . . to your comment reply and Protestant heretical condemnation of my Catholic Faith, it sucks and is just pure Hypocritical compost.
To be as blunt as you are.
Protestantism is a "Dead Religion" and it continues to fracture and divide.
It is a Christian apostasy, a schismmatic-heretical, Man-Made faith, that selectively picks and chooses e.g. (Shoping-Cart style), bible scriptural verse's from Jesus Christ's one True Church Christianity doctrines.
Protestantism does not follow Jesus Christ's teaching, from the Apostles instructions, to the Early Church Fathers instructions, the Church Written and Oral traditions. From the instructions and succession's of Pope's, Bishop's, Priest's, Deacon's Friar's, Nun's and the Church's Laity faithful.
I'm glad that you play the Protestant "Prose questioning," devils advocate indictment and typical Protestant accusation's, to your soliloquy absent-minded non-reasoning-brain and your typical anti-Catholic non-logical responses . . . .
mwdegutis, . . .
You, don't Comprehend, . . . Read . . . so Good . . . Do you ? . . . and or are most probably a little Grammarly confused ? . . . . .
https://www.grammarly.com
(See below for definitions) a. Metaphor, b. Simile is, c. Idiom is ? etc. And how they can be used in the English vernacular of the day.
mwdegutis,
#1. Lets just suppose, an Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist, . . . who knows nothing about Protestant Christianity doctrinal belief's and or about Sola Scripture . . . the Bible only 1532 Man-Made theology . . .
"While they were watching and attending a Protestant service they noticed a woman praying to the Bible!"
What would they say about that characterization ?
#2. Lets just suppose, the same Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist, . . . who knows nothing about Catholicism dictional beliefs noticed a woman praying before and appeared to be praying to a statue of Mary the Mother of God and was holding a Rosary to her chest.
What would they say about that characterization ?
a. Would they say the Catholic woman was misconstrued and not praying to the statues before the Blessed Mother and the Rosary ? She held in her hands with her eyes closed a rosary, pressed to her heart as she prayed.
Or
b. Would they say the Protestant woman was misconstrued and not praying to the Bible which she held in her hands with her eyes closed and the Bible pressed to her heart as she prayed.
What is the difference ? To the Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist ?
mwdegutis, Get the Point, it's a personal Judgement that you are making. Religious Relativism with-out the Known Facts . . .
But to the God, who inspired the Bible ? Inspired the statue of the Blessed Mother and inspired the Rosary ?
What's the real cognitive religious difference here ?
Would the Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist, would they jump to the unwarranted conclusion that this Protestant woman is treating her Bible as an idol ?
Would the Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist, would they jump to the unwarranted conclusion that this Catholic woman is treating her statue of the Blessed Mother and the Rosary as an idol ?
One could say, the same goes for having a picture of a deceased relative on the mantelpiece of her home, or for any object for that matter ? Is an Idol . . .
Would any reasonable person accuse her of ancestor worship ? A photograph as an Idol ?
mwdegutis, Of course not, so you don't use the same logic as Catholics pray to an image or statue of the Blessed Mother.
So let me . . . "re-state" . . . Your Protestant mis-understanding and most Protestant difficulty con-damnation of Marian statues, and the rosary.
By "NOT" understanding of the Catholic Church Biblical doctrinal practices, and which you are having, a intellectual, Grammar, theology-philosophical doctrinal level have lots of problems.
I have to say mwdegutis, that you consistently have a Protestant obtuse behavior, and belligerent anti-Catholic biases to my Catholic faith and traditional practices.
That you oppose and speak with Supposition's, Innuendo's, Exaggeration's of your own Personal Emotional Belief's, Religious Hypocritical Truth's, and Empty Protestant Rhetoric, devoid of any Real Factual Substance on my Catholic Faith and repeated are wrong.
Tell me something ?
Are you personally Protestant brain-dead ? . . . I suppose's so . . . Can't make a Protestant drink the water, can we . . .
mwdegutis, Protestantism is a dead religion and it continues to fracture and divide. It does not follow Jesus Christ's teaching, The Apostles instructions.
mwdegutis, Protestantism selectively picks and chooses e.g. (Shoping-Cart) Christianity.
That's why I say, Protestantism is a dead religion . . .
With over 30,000 thousand sectarian divisional Man-Made, independent, doctrinal, biblical self-interpreting, little Pope's.
Since you won't or can't understand the Article answers, to Protestants, on why Catholics venerate and honor Mary the Mother of God and the Saint's.
mwdegutis, Catholics do not worship or practice Idols worship in their churches. That is a Protestant heretical disingenuous falsehood.
This is a 16th century Protestant misperception by Calvinistic and of Presbyterianism, Assembly Of God, Brethren, Quakers, Amish and Mennonites, and all forms of Baptists.
Because of their hatred, bigoted, and prejudicial false anti-Christian beliefs are still practiced today.
Quote mwdegutis,
"But I have first hand knowledge of Catholics praying to statues of Mary or Joseph, two statues that were, when I was growing up, on either side of the altar, right where Jesus was depicted hanging from a cross."
**Catholics do not worship or practice praying to Idols worship in their churches.
**You don't know religious compost.**
**Your just a Protestant repeater religious lier, as is Zemirah, Rose42, jack sequim wa, and balmer. The five lying Horse-men and Horse-women of the Protestant apocalypse . . . **
**That is a Protestant heretical disingenuous falsehood.**
**mwdegutis, you're full of composted Protestant regurgitated dendrite opinions.**
I guess you have not heard of what a. Metaphor is ?, b. what a Simile is, c. and what an Idiom is? in the English dictionary ?
1. A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes an object or action in a way that isn’t literally true, but helps explain an idea or make a comparison.
Here are the basics:
A metaphor states that one thing is another thing
It equates those two things not because they actually are the same, but for the sake of comparison or symbolism
If you take a metaphor literally, it will probably sound very strange (are there actually any sheep, black or otherwise, in your family?)
Metaphors are used in poetry, literature, and anytime someone wants to add some color to their language
2. What is a Similes
Similes TIPS
Life is like a box of chocolates: you never know which one you’re going to get.
Let’s use this example to understand what a simile is:
A simile is a phrase that uses a comparison to describe. For example, “life” can be described as similar to “a box of chocolates.”
You know you’ve spotted one when you see the words like or as in a comparison.
Similes are like metaphors. But metaphors aren’t the same as similes.
Similes are great for famous authors, public speakers, and folks who want to make their writing as exciting as a spontaneous show of fireworks.
08/04/2011 How can I explain that praying before a statue of Mary doesn't constitute idolatry?
3. What is a Idiom
An Idiom Is a Form of Figurative Language, is a commonly used expression whose meaning does not relate to the literal meaning of its words.
Idioms are classified as figurative language, which is the use of words in an unusual or imaginative manner.
4. Figurative language includes the use of metaphors, similes, personification, hyperbole, euphemisms, and pun.
5. What Is the Definition of 'Literal Meaning'?
The term literal meaning denotes that all words are in strict accordance with their original meanings. In other words, to apply the literal meaning is to take the words in their most basic sense without metaphor or exaggeration.
You might want to read Patrick Madrid’s book, Search and Rescue: How to Bring Your Family and Friends Into, or Back Into, the Catholic Church.
Doc110
Just a poignant Catholic observation, . . . to your comment reply and Protestant heretical condemnation of my Catholic Faith, it sucks and is just pure Hypocritical compost.
To be as blunt as you are.
Protestantism is a "Dead Religion" and it continues to fracture and divide.
It is a Christian apostasy, a schismmatic-heretical, Man-Made faith, that selectively picks and chooses e.g. (Shoping-Cart style), bible scriptural verse's from Jesus Christ's one True Church Christianity doctrines.
Protestantism does not follow Jesus Christ's teaching, from the Apostles instructions, to the Early Church Fathers instructions, the Church Written and Oral traditions. From the instructions and succession's of Pope's, Bishop's, Priest's, Deacon's Friar's, Nun's and the Church's Laity faithful.
I'm glad that you play the Protestant "Prose questioning," devils advocate indictment and typical Protestant accusation's, to your soliloquy absent-minded non-reasoning-brain and your typical anti-Catholic non-logical responses . . . .
mwdegutis, . . .
You, don't Comprehend, . . . Read . . . so Good . . . Do you ? . . . and or are most probably a little Grammarly confused ? . . . . .
https://www.grammarly.com
(See below for definitions) a. Metaphor, b. Simile is, c. Idiom is ? etc. And how they can be used in the English vernacular of the day.
mwdegutis,
#1. Lets just suppose, an Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist, . . . who knows nothing about Protestant Christianity doctrinal belief's and or about Sola Scripture . . . the Bible only 1532 Man-Made theology . . .
"While they were watching and attending a Protestant service they noticed a woman praying to the Bible!"
What would they say about that characterization ?
#2. Lets just suppose, the same Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist, . . . who knows nothing about Catholicism dictional beliefs noticed a woman praying before and appeared to be praying to a statue of Mary the Mother of God and was holding a Rosary to her chest.
What would they say about that characterization ?
a. Would they say the Catholic woman was misconstrued and not praying to the statues before the Blessed Mother and the Rosary ? She held in her hands with her eyes closed a rosary, pressed to her heart as she prayed.
Or
b. Would they say the Protestant woman was misconstrued and not praying to the Bible which she held in her hands with her eyes closed and the Bible pressed to her heart as she prayed.
What is the difference ? To the Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist ?
mwdegutis, Get the Point, it's a personal Judgement that you are making. Religious Relativism with-out the Known Facts . . .
But to the God, who inspired the Bible ? Inspired the statue of the Blessed Mother and inspired the Rosary ?
What's the real cognitive religious difference here ?
Would the Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist, would they jump to the unwarranted conclusion that this Protestant woman is treating her Bible as an idol ?
Would the Alien from Mars, . . . or an Atheist - Agnostic - or a Theist, would they jump to the unwarranted conclusion that this Catholic woman is treating her statue of the Blessed Mother and the Rosary as an idol ?
One could say, the same goes for having a picture of a deceased relative on the mantelpiece of her home, or for any object for that matter ? Is an Idol . . .
Would any reasonable person accuse her of ancestor worship ? A photograph as an Idol ?
mwdegutis, Of course not, so you don't use the same logic as Catholics pray to an image or statue of the Blessed Mother.
So let me . . . "re-state" . . . Your Protestant mis-understanding and most Protestant difficulty con-damnation of Marian statues, and the rosary.
By "NOT" understanding of the Catholic Church Biblical doctrinal practices, and which you are having, a intellectual, Grammar, theology-philosophical doctrinal level have lots of problems.
I have to say mwdegutis, that you consistently have a Protestant obtuse behavior, and belligerent anti-Catholic biases to my Catholic faith and traditional practices.
That you oppose and speak with Supposition's, Innuendo's, Exaggeration's of your own Personal Emotional Belief's, Religious Hypocritical Truth's, and Empty Protestant Rhetoric, devoid of any Real Factual Substance on my Catholic Faith and repeated are wrong.
Tell me something ?
Are you personally Protestant brain-dead ? . . . I suppose's so . . . Can't make a Protestant drink the water, can we . . .
mwdegutis, Protestantism is a dead religion and it continues to fracture and divide. It does not follow Jesus Christ's teaching, The Apostles instructions.
mwdegutis, Protestantism selectively picks and chooses e.g. (Shoping-Cart) Christianity.
That's why I say, Protestantism is a dead religion . . .
With over 30,000 thousand sectarian divisional Man-Made, independent, doctrinal, biblical self-interpreting, little Pope's.
Since you won't or can't understand the Article answers, to Protestants, on why Catholics venerate and honor Mary the Mother of God and the Saint's.
mwdegutis, Catholics do not worship or practice Idols worship in their churches. That is a Protestant heretical disingenuous falsehood.
This is a 16th century Protestant misperception by Calvinistic and of Presbyterianism, Assembly Of God, Brethren, Quakers, Amish and Mennonites, and all forms of Baptists.
Because of their hatred, bigoted, and prejudicial false anti-Christian beliefs are still practiced today.
Quote mwdegutis,
"But I have first hand knowledge of Catholics praying to statues of Mary or Joseph, two statues that were, when I was growing up, on either side of the altar, right where Jesus was depicted hanging from a cross."
**Catholics do not worship or practice praying to Idols worship in their churches.
**You don't know religious compost.**
**Your just a Protestant repeater religious lier, as is Zemirah, Rose42, jack sequim wa, and balmer. The five lying Horse-men and Horse-women of the Protestant apocalypse . . . **
**That is a Protestant heretical disingenuous falsehood.**
**mwdegutis, you're full of composted Protestant regurgitated dendrite opinions.**
I guess you have not heard of what a. Metaphor is ?, b. what a Simile is, c. and what an Idiom is? in the English dictionary ?
1. A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes an object or action in a way that isn’t literally true, but helps explain an idea or make a comparison.
Here are the basics:
A metaphor states that one thing is another thing
It equates those two things not because they actually are the same, but for the sake of comparison or symbolism
If you take a metaphor literally, it will probably sound very strange (are there actually any sheep, black or otherwise, in your family?)
Metaphors are used in poetry, literature, and anytime someone wants to add some color to their language
2. What is a Similes
Similes TIPS
Life is like a box of chocolates: you never know which one you’re going to get.
Let’s use this example to understand what a simile is:
A simile is a phrase that uses a comparison to describe. For example, “life” can be described as similar to “a box of chocolates.”
You know you’ve spotted one when you see the words like or as in a comparison.
Similes are like metaphors. But metaphors aren’t the same as similes.
Similes are great for famous authors, public speakers, and folks who want to make their writing as exciting as a spontaneous show of fireworks.
08/04/2011 How can I explain that praying before a statue of Mary doesn't constitute idolatry?
3. What is a Idiom
An Idiom Is a Form of Figurative Language, is a commonly used expression whose meaning does not relate to the literal meaning of its words.
Idioms are classified as figurative language, which is the use of words in an unusual or imaginative manner.
4. Figurative language includes the use of metaphors, similes, personification, hyperbole, euphemisms, and pun.
5. What Is the Definition of 'Literal Meaning'?
The term literal meaning denotes that all words are in strict accordance with their original meanings. In other words, to apply the literal meaning is to take the words in their most basic sense without metaphor or exaggeration.
You might want to read Patrick Madrid’s book, Search and Rescue: How to Bring Your Family and Friends Into, or Back Into, the Catholic Church.
Doc110
mwdegutis wrote:
br br I have never heard of an instance of a Pro... (show quote)
Dec 6, 2018 00:50:21 #
Rose42,
Your just totally ignorant in the Holy Scriptures.
Plainly put . . .
Relics in Scripture
Keep in mind what the Church says about relics.
It doesn’t say there is some magical power in them.
There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or water from Lourdes, that has any curative ability.
The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.
The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life:
"So Elisha died, and they buried him.
Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year.
And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha;
And as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet."
2 Kgs. 13:20-21
This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!
Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak.
Matt. 9:20-22
And the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them. Acts 5:14-16
"And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them."
Acts 19:11-12
Doc110
Your just totally ignorant in the Holy Scriptures.
Plainly put . . .
Relics in Scripture
Keep in mind what the Church says about relics.
It doesn’t say there is some magical power in them.
There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or water from Lourdes, that has any curative ability.
The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.
The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life:
"So Elisha died, and they buried him.
Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year.
And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha;
And as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet."
2 Kgs. 13:20-21
This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!
Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak.
Matt. 9:20-22
And the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them. Acts 5:14-16
"And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them."
Acts 19:11-12
Doc110
Rose42 wrote:
"The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. "
Only in connection with idolatry.
"The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. "
Only in connection with idolatry.
Dec 6, 2018 07:06:01 #
Doc110 wrote:
mwdegutis, br br Just a poignant Catholic observa... (show quote)
I might add Doc that I was raised Roman Catholic and went through twelve years of Catholic indoctrination in grade and high school. When I was a child I even wanted to be a priest. My brother and I used to "play" Mass. I know what I'm talking about.
And although I haven't been a true follower of Jesus very long, I have NEVER seen another true believer pray to a bible. However, I have seen Catholics pray to statues of Mary, Joseph, and the cross with a crucified Jesus on the cross (you'll NEVER see a cross with a crucified Jesus on it at our church. He's not on it, He is risen from the dead.)
Dec 6, 2018 07:35:03 #
mwdegutis wrote:
I might add Doc that I was raised Roman Catholic a... (show quote)
================
I think the proceeding explanations of Doc110 could make you understand why the Virgin Mother is honored and loved. But still undecided. I think you are a smart person and could fully grasp the substance of what was explained. Praying to the Virgin Mother is not idolatry.
Here I will give you one more challenge. On my Chess Board, take the first move and I'll see where it will bring you.
Dec 6, 2018 07:56:50 #
So what . . .
You had bad Catechesis in the early 50s 60s and 70s The catechism was not taught very well and a lot of parents didn’t do their job very well teaching their children.
You probably were one of them.
I will garentee no one worshiped praying to Mary the Mother of God.
You just are a lier, and fabercate mythical lies about the Catholic Church as rose42, jack, texaCan and zemirah.
That’s all you do and you do a very poor job at it.
You had bad Catechesis in the early 50s 60s and 70s The catechism was not taught very well and a lot of parents didn’t do their job very well teaching their children.
You probably were one of them.
I will garentee no one worshiped praying to Mary the Mother of God.
You just are a lier, and fabercate mythical lies about the Catholic Church as rose42, jack, texaCan and zemirah.
That’s all you do and you do a very poor job at it.
mwdegutis wrote:
br br I might add Doc that I was raised Roman Ca... (show quote)
Dec 6, 2018 08:03:05 #
You still don’t get the message,
If an alien from mars or an atheist observed a Protestant praying to the Bible, is this idolatry?
Yes they would think the person was praying directly to the Bible and was worshiping the Bible
You can be as evasive all you want in not accepting a hypothetical question.
It’s exactly what you are doing.
If an alien from mars or an atheist observed a Protestant praying to the Bible, is this idolatry?
Yes they would think the person was praying directly to the Bible and was worshiping the Bible
You can be as evasive all you want in not accepting a hypothetical question.
It’s exactly what you are doing.
mwdegutis wrote:
I might add Doc that I was raised Roman Catholic a... (show quote)
Dec 6, 2018 08:10:45 #
Still the same old Bullish-t artist.
You think they were praying or worshiping Mary.
Duos you happen to ask them a question?
Worship or venerating the Mother of God.
The Catholic Church teaches we venerate Mary the Mother of God.
You are just another Protestant person that lies through their teeth.
A anti-Catholic bigot prejudiced person who played at being a priest.
You fell away from the Catholic Church by the lies others told you.
Hook line and sinker.
You think they were praying or worshiping Mary.
Duos you happen to ask them a question?
Worship or venerating the Mother of God.
The Catholic Church teaches we venerate Mary the Mother of God.
You are just another Protestant person that lies through their teeth.
A anti-Catholic bigot prejudiced person who played at being a priest.
You fell away from the Catholic Church by the lies others told you.
Hook line and sinker.
mwdegutis wrote:
I might add Doc that I was raised Roman Catholic a... (show quote)
Dec 6, 2018 09:01:08 #
Worship/veneration of Mary is an attack on God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
First of all, the worship of Mary is an attack on God Himself. Mary becomes the mother of the Son of God. Mary becomes the mother of God, in their language. She is called the Queen of heaven, and therefore she is the rival of the King of heaven, the sovereign God Himself. As we have learned, she is granted sovereignty. She is worthy of worship, worthy of praise. She demands if you want salvation, that you adore her, that you love her, that you enthrone her because she is loving, gracious, merciful. She is all-knowing, all seeing, and all powerful. De Liguori in “The Glories of Mary,” page 566, quote: “At the command of Mary all obey, even God.” Blasphemy against God.
This goddess worship is also blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Mary is the comforter. Mary is the sympathizer. Mary is the helper. Mary is the empowerer. Mary is the advocate. Mary is the encourager. Mary is even the sanctifier who works to make her children pure.
This goddess worship is also an attack against the Son. She becomes a counterfeit savior: born sinless, without the stain of original sin, living a sinless life. She is called the all-holy child. She becomes redeemer, provider of salvation, dispenser of forgiveness, source of all blessing, from salvation to glorification. She is called the all-holy one, clearly a title belonging only to God.
from - https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-317/exposing-the-idolatry-of-mary-worship-what-the-bible-says
First of all, the worship of Mary is an attack on God Himself. Mary becomes the mother of the Son of God. Mary becomes the mother of God, in their language. She is called the Queen of heaven, and therefore she is the rival of the King of heaven, the sovereign God Himself. As we have learned, she is granted sovereignty. She is worthy of worship, worthy of praise. She demands if you want salvation, that you adore her, that you love her, that you enthrone her because she is loving, gracious, merciful. She is all-knowing, all seeing, and all powerful. De Liguori in “The Glories of Mary,” page 566, quote: “At the command of Mary all obey, even God.” Blasphemy against God.
This goddess worship is also blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Mary is the comforter. Mary is the sympathizer. Mary is the helper. Mary is the empowerer. Mary is the advocate. Mary is the encourager. Mary is even the sanctifier who works to make her children pure.
This goddess worship is also an attack against the Son. She becomes a counterfeit savior: born sinless, without the stain of original sin, living a sinless life. She is called the all-holy child. She becomes redeemer, provider of salvation, dispenser of forgiveness, source of all blessing, from salvation to glorification. She is called the all-holy one, clearly a title belonging only to God.
from - https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-317/exposing-the-idolatry-of-mary-worship-what-the-bible-says
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