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Modern Roman Catholic Apologetics and Sola Scriptura
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Nov 27, 2018 15:44:33   #
Rose42
 
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong."

The official Catholic position on Scripture is that Scripture does not and cannot speak for itself. It must be interpreted by the Church's teaching authority, and in light of "living tradition." De facto this says that Scripture has no inherent authority, but like all spiritual truth, it derives its authority from the Church. Only what the Church says is deemed the true Word of God, the "Sacred Scripture . . . written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records."

This position obviously emasculates Scripture. That is why the Catholic stance against sola Scriptura has always posed a major problem for Roman Catholic apologists. On one hand faced with the task of defending Catholic doctrine, and on the other hand desiring to affirm what Scripture says about itself, they find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot affirm the authority of Scripture apart from the caveat that tradition is necessary to explain the Bible's true meaning. Quite plainly, that makes tradition a superior authority. Moreover, in effect it renders Scripture superfluous, for if Catholic tr adition inerrantly encompasses and explains all the truth of Scripture, then the Bible is simply redundant. Understandably, sola Scriptura has therefore always been a highly effective argument for defenders of the Reformation.

So it is not hard to understand why in recent years Catholic apologists have attacked sola Scriptura with a vengeance. If they can topple this one doctrine, all the Reformers' other points fall with it. For under the Catholic system, whatever the Church says must be the standard by which to interpret all Scripture. Tradition is the "true" Scripture, written in the heart of the Church. The Church—not Scripture written in "documents and records"—defines the truth about justification by faith, veneration of saints, transubstantiation, and a host of other issues that divided the Reformers from Rome.

To put it another way, if we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, "There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son's "co-mediatrix." And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.

If Rome can prove her case against sola Scriptura, she overturns all the arguments for the Reformation in one fell swoop. If she can establish her tradition as an infallible authority, no mere biblical argument would have any effect against the dictates of the Church.

Modern Roman Catholic apologists have therefore mounted a carefully focused attack against sola Scriptura.Hoping to turn the Reformation's greatest strength into an argument against the Reformation, they have begun to argue that it is possible to debunk sola Scriptura by using Scripture alone!This line of argument is now being employed by Catholics against evangelicalism in practically every conceivable forum.

For example, from some articles posted on the Internet:

-The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority—sola Scriptura—is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation.

-The Bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole authority in matters of belief. In fact, the Bible teaches that Tradition—the oral teachings given by Jesus to the apostles and their successors, the bishops—is a parallel source of authentic belief. (Quotes from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 follow).

From some books written by Catholic Apologists:

-Nowhere does [the Bible] reduce God's Word down to Scripture alone. Instead, the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is to be found in the church: her tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6) as well as her preaching and teaching (Matthew 18:17; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:20-21). That's why I think the Bible supports the Catholic principle of sola verbum Dei, "the Word of God alone," [with "Word of God" encompassing both tradition and Scripture], rather than the Protestant slogan, sola scriptura, "Scripture alone."

-The Bible actually denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ's work is in Scripture (John 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition that is handed down by word of mouth (2 Timothy 2:2). He instructs us to "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). We are told that the first Christians "were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42), which was the oral teaching given long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the canon of the New Testament was settled.

And from a public debate on the question of sola Scriptura:

-Sola Scriptura itself must be proved from Scripture alone. And if it can't be done, sola scriptura is a self refuting proposition, and therefore it is false.

- In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul commands the Church to stand firm and hold fast in the traditions that they had been given, whether orally, spoken, or through an epistle of theirs. So in other words, tradition is one major category, and there are two subsets in the one category:oral tradition, written tradition. That's what the Word of God says.

The Sufficiency of Scripture

First, it is necessary to understand what sola Scriptura does and does not assert. The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that "scientific truth" for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a "more sure Word," standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is "more sure," according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our own senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter to which it speaks. But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary.

Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take way from Scripture (cf. Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, cf. Revelation 22:18-19). To do so is to lay on people's shoulders a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matthew 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved, and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That—no more, no less—is what sola Scriptura means.

The Westminster Confession of Faith defines the sufficiency of Scripture like this:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men (1:6).

The Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Church include this statement on sola Scriptura:

Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation (article 6).

So sola Scriptura simply means that Scripture is sufficient. The fact that Jesus did and taught many things not recorded in Scripture (John 20:30; 21:25) is wholly irrelevant to the principle of sola Scriptura. The fact that most of the apostles' actual sermons in the early churches were not written down and preserved for us does not diminish the truth of biblical sufficiency one bit.What is certain is that all that is necessary is in Scripture—and we are forbidden "to exceed what is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Scripture clearly claims for itself this sufficiency—and nowhere more clearly that 2 Timothy 3:15-17. A brief summary of that passage is perhaps appropriate here as well. In short, verse 15 affirms that Scripture is sufficient for salvation: "The sacred writings . . . are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." Verse 16 affirms the absolute authority of Scripture, which is "God-breathed" (Gk. theopneustos) and profitable for our instruction. And verse 17 states that Scripture is able to equip the man of God "for every good work."

So the assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong.

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A245/scripture-tradition-and-rome-part-2

Reply
Nov 27, 2018 18:01:53   #
bahmer
 
Rose42 wrote:
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong."

The official Catholic position on Scripture is that Scripture does not and cannot speak for itself. It must be interpreted by the Church's teaching authority, and in light of "living tradition." De facto this says that Scripture has no inherent authority, but like all spiritual truth, it derives its authority from the Church. Only what the Church says is deemed the true Word of God, the "Sacred Scripture . . . written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records."

This position obviously emasculates Scripture. That is why the Catholic stance against sola Scriptura has always posed a major problem for Roman Catholic apologists. On one hand faced with the task of defending Catholic doctrine, and on the other hand desiring to affirm what Scripture says about itself, they find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot affirm the authority of Scripture apart from the caveat that tradition is necessary to explain the Bible's true meaning. Quite plainly, that makes tradition a superior authority. Moreover, in effect it renders Scripture superfluous, for if Catholic tr adition inerrantly encompasses and explains all the truth of Scripture, then the Bible is simply redundant. Understandably, sola Scriptura has therefore always been a highly effective argument for defenders of the Reformation.

So it is not hard to understand why in recent years Catholic apologists have attacked sola Scriptura with a vengeance. If they can topple this one doctrine, all the Reformers' other points fall with it. For under the Catholic system, whatever the Church says must be the standard by which to interpret all Scripture. Tradition is the "true" Scripture, written in the heart of the Church. The Church—not Scripture written in "documents and records"—defines the truth about justification by faith, veneration of saints, transubstantiation, and a host of other issues that divided the Reformers from Rome.

To put it another way, if we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, "There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son's "co-mediatrix." And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.

If Rome can prove her case against sola Scriptura, she overturns all the arguments for the Reformation in one fell swoop. If she can establish her tradition as an infallible authority, no mere biblical argument would have any effect against the dictates of the Church.

Modern Roman Catholic apologists have therefore mounted a carefully focused attack against sola Scriptura.Hoping to turn the Reformation's greatest strength into an argument against the Reformation, they have begun to argue that it is possible to debunk sola Scriptura by using Scripture alone!This line of argument is now being employed by Catholics against evangelicalism in practically every conceivable forum.

For example, from some articles posted on the Internet:

-The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority—sola Scriptura—is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation.

-The Bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole authority in matters of belief. In fact, the Bible teaches that Tradition—the oral teachings given by Jesus to the apostles and their successors, the bishops—is a parallel source of authentic belief. (Quotes from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 follow).

From some books written by Catholic Apologists:

-Nowhere does [the Bible] reduce God's Word down to Scripture alone. Instead, the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is to be found in the church: her tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6) as well as her preaching and teaching (Matthew 18:17; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:20-21). That's why I think the Bible supports the Catholic principle of sola verbum Dei, "the Word of God alone," [with "Word of God" encompassing both tradition and Scripture], rather than the Protestant slogan, sola scriptura, "Scripture alone."

-The Bible actually denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ's work is in Scripture (John 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition that is handed down by word of mouth (2 Timothy 2:2). He instructs us to "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). We are told that the first Christians "were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42), which was the oral teaching given long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the canon of the New Testament was settled.

And from a public debate on the question of sola Scriptura:

-Sola Scriptura itself must be proved from Scripture alone. And if it can't be done, sola scriptura is a self refuting proposition, and therefore it is false.

- In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul commands the Church to stand firm and hold fast in the traditions that they had been given, whether orally, spoken, or through an epistle of theirs. So in other words, tradition is one major category, and there are two subsets in the one category:oral tradition, written tradition. That's what the Word of God says.

The Sufficiency of Scripture

First, it is necessary to understand what sola Scriptura does and does not assert. The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that "scientific truth" for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a "more sure Word," standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is "more sure," according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our own senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter to which it speaks. But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary.

Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take way from Scripture (cf. Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, cf. Revelation 22:18-19). To do so is to lay on people's shoulders a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matthew 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved, and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That—no more, no less—is what sola Scriptura means.

The Westminster Confession of Faith defines the sufficiency of Scripture like this:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men (1:6).

The Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Church include this statement on sola Scriptura:

Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation (article 6).

So sola Scriptura simply means that Scripture is sufficient. The fact that Jesus did and taught many things not recorded in Scripture (John 20:30; 21:25) is wholly irrelevant to the principle of sola Scriptura. The fact that most of the apostles' actual sermons in the early churches were not written down and preserved for us does not diminish the truth of biblical sufficiency one bit.What is certain is that all that is necessary is in Scripture—and we are forbidden "to exceed what is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Scripture clearly claims for itself this sufficiency—and nowhere more clearly that 2 Timothy 3:15-17. A brief summary of that passage is perhaps appropriate here as well. In short, verse 15 affirms that Scripture is sufficient for salvation: "The sacred writings . . . are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." Verse 16 affirms the absolute authority of Scripture, which is "God-breathed" (Gk. theopneustos) and profitable for our instruction. And verse 17 states that Scripture is able to equip the man of God "for every good work."

So the assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong.

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A245/scripture-tradition-and-rome-part-2
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not... (show quote)


Amen and Amen thank you Rose42 for this dissertation on Sola Scriptura.

Reply
Nov 28, 2018 14:44:29   #
Radiance3
 
Rose42 wrote:
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong."

The official Catholic position on Scripture is that Scripture does not and cannot speak for itself. It must be interpreted by the Church's teaching authority, and in light of "living tradition." De facto this says that Scripture has no inherent authority, but like all spiritual truth, it derives its authority from the Church. Only what the Church says is deemed the true Word of God, the "Sacred Scripture . . . written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records."

This position obviously emasculates Scripture. That is why the Catholic stance against sola Scriptura has always posed a major problem for Roman Catholic apologists. On one hand faced with the task of defending Catholic doctrine, and on the other hand desiring to affirm what Scripture says about itself, they find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot affirm the authority of Scripture apart from the caveat that tradition is necessary to explain the Bible's true meaning. Quite plainly, that makes tradition a superior authority. Moreover, in effect it renders Scripture superfluous, for if Catholic tr adition inerrantly encompasses and explains all the truth of Scripture, then the Bible is simply redundant. Understandably, sola Scriptura has therefore always been a highly effective argument for defenders of the Reformation.

So it is not hard to understand why in recent years Catholic apologists have attacked sola Scriptura with a vengeance. If they can topple this one doctrine, all the Reformers' other points fall with it. For under the Catholic system, whatever the Church says must be the standard by which to interpret all Scripture. Tradition is the "true" Scripture, written in the heart of the Church. The Church—not Scripture written in "documents and records"—defines the truth about justification by faith, veneration of saints, transubstantiation, and a host of other issues that divided the Reformers from Rome.

To put it another way, if we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, "There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son's "co-mediatrix." And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.

If Rome can prove her case against sola Scriptura, she overturns all the arguments for the Reformation in one fell swoop. If she can establish her tradition as an infallible authority, no mere biblical argument would have any effect against the dictates of the Church.

Modern Roman Catholic apologists have therefore mounted a carefully focused attack against sola Scriptura.Hoping to turn the Reformation's greatest strength into an argument against the Reformation, they have begun to argue that it is possible to debunk sola Scriptura by using Scripture alone!This line of argument is now being employed by Catholics against evangelicalism in practically every conceivable forum.

For example, from some articles posted on the Internet:

-The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority—sola Scriptura—is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation.

-The Bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole authority in matters of belief. In fact, the Bible teaches that Tradition—the oral teachings given by Jesus to the apostles and their successors, the bishops—is a parallel source of authentic belief. (Quotes from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 follow).

From some books written by Catholic Apologists:

-Nowhere does [the Bible] reduce God's Word down to Scripture alone. Instead, the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is to be found in the church: her tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6) as well as her preaching and teaching (Matthew 18:17; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:20-21). That's why I think the Bible supports the Catholic principle of sola verbum Dei, "the Word of God alone," [with "Word of God" encompassing both tradition and Scripture], rather than the Protestant slogan, sola scriptura, "Scripture alone."

-The Bible actually denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ's work is in Scripture (John 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition that is handed down by word of mouth (2 Timothy 2:2). He instructs us to "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). We are told that the first Christians "were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42), which was the oral teaching given long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the canon of the New Testament was settled.

And from a public debate on the question of sola Scriptura:

-Sola Scriptura itself must be proved from Scripture alone. And if it can't be done, sola scriptura is a self refuting proposition, and therefore it is false.

- In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul commands the Church to stand firm and hold fast in the traditions that they had been given, whether orally, spoken, or through an epistle of theirs. So in other words, tradition is one major category, and there are two subsets in the one category:oral tradition, written tradition. That's what the Word of God says.

The Sufficiency of Scripture

First, it is necessary to understand what sola Scriptura does and does not assert. The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that "scientific truth" for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a "more sure Word," standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is "more sure," according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our own senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter to which it speaks. But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary.

Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take way from Scripture (cf. Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, cf. Revelation 22:18-19). To do so is to lay on people's shoulders a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matthew 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved, and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That—no more, no less—is what sola Scriptura means.

The Westminster Confession of Faith defines the sufficiency of Scripture like this:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men (1:6).

The Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Church include this statement on sola Scriptura:

Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation (article 6).

So sola Scriptura simply means that Scripture is sufficient. The fact that Jesus did and taught many things not recorded in Scripture (John 20:30; 21:25) is wholly irrelevant to the principle of sola Scriptura. The fact that most of the apostles' actual sermons in the early churches were not written down and preserved for us does not diminish the truth of biblical sufficiency one bit.What is certain is that all that is necessary is in Scripture—and we are forbidden "to exceed what is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Scripture clearly claims for itself this sufficiency—and nowhere more clearly that 2 Timothy 3:15-17. A brief summary of that passage is perhaps appropriate here as well. In short, verse 15 affirms that Scripture is sufficient for salvation: "The sacred writings . . . are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." Verse 16 affirms the absolute authority of Scripture, which is "God-breathed" (Gk. theopneustos) and profitable for our instruction. And verse 17 states that Scripture is able to equip the man of God "for every good work."

So the assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong.

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A245/scripture-tradition-and-rome-part-2
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not... (show quote)

=================
You can use all the Scriptures from Sola Scriptura, but WITHOUT AUTHORITY FROM GOD,
your teachings and using the Scriptures are not within the authority of God.

Still, Protestants are in violations of God's order. Amendment of that without God's authority is still illegal in the eyes of the Lord.

Reply
 
 
Nov 28, 2018 15:22:48   #
bahmer
 
Radiance3 wrote:
=================
You can use all the Scriptures from Sola Scriptura, but WITHOUT AUTHORITY FROM GOD,
your teachings and using the Scriptures are not within the authority of God.

Still, Protestants are in violations of God's order. Amendment of that without God's authority is still illegal in the eyes of the Lord.


And your license from God is stored where Radiance3 in the Vatican under the popes seat? Where Radiance3 have you seen this document that God signed because you seem to be so cock sure of yourself about the authority that the Roman Catholic Church has on all of the bible. Which priest was it that told you all of this malarkey anyway because he sure fed you a line of bull and you took it hook line and sinker for sure.

Reply
Nov 28, 2018 15:25:40   #
Rose42
 
Radiance3 wrote:
=================
You can use all the Scriptures from Sola Scriptura, but WITHOUT AUTHORITY FROM GOD,
your teachings and using the Scriptures are not within the authority of God.

Still, Protestants are in violations of God's order. Amendment of that without God's authority is still illegal in the eyes of the Lord.


Radiance if you refuse to learn something as simple as what sola scriptura means how then can you be taken seriously in other subjects? You use it wrong time and time again even after being told time and time again its meaning. Catholic apologists know what it means though they don't agree with it.

Reply
Nov 28, 2018 16:09:02   #
Radiance3
 
Rose42 wrote:
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong."

The official Catholic position on Scripture is that Scripture does not and cannot speak for itself. It must be interpreted by the Church's teaching authority, and in light of "living tradition." De facto this says that Scripture has no inherent authority, but like all spiritual truth, it derives its authority from the Church. Only what the Church says is deemed the true Word of God, the "Sacred Scripture . . . written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records."

This position obviously emasculates Scripture. That is why the Catholic stance against sola Scriptura has always posed a major problem for Roman Catholic apologists. On one hand faced with the task of defending Catholic doctrine, and on the other hand desiring to affirm what Scripture says about itself, they find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot affirm the authority of Scripture apart from the caveat that tradition is necessary to explain the Bible's true meaning. Quite plainly, that makes tradition a superior authority. Moreover, in effect it renders Scripture superfluous, for if Catholic tr adition inerrantly encompasses and explains all the truth of Scripture, then the Bible is simply redundant. Understandably, sola Scriptura has therefore always been a highly effective argument for defenders of the Reformation.

So it is not hard to understand why in recent years Catholic apologists have attacked sola Scriptura with a vengeance. If they can topple this one doctrine, all the Reformers' other points fall with it. For under the Catholic system, whatever the Church says must be the standard by which to interpret all Scripture. Tradition is the "true" Scripture, written in the heart of the Church. The Church—not Scripture written in "documents and records"—defines the truth about justification by faith, veneration of saints, transubstantiation, and a host of other issues that divided the Reformers from Rome.

To put it another way, if we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, "There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son's "co-mediatrix." And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.

If Rome can prove her case against sola Scriptura, she overturns all the arguments for the Reformation in one fell swoop. If she can establish her tradition as an infallible authority, no mere biblical argument would have any effect against the dictates of the Church.

Modern Roman Catholic apologists have therefore mounted a carefully focused attack against sola Scriptura.Hoping to turn the Reformation's greatest strength into an argument against the Reformation, they have begun to argue that it is possible to debunk sola Scriptura by using Scripture alone!This line of argument is now being employed by Catholics against evangelicalism in practically every conceivable forum.

For example, from some articles posted on the Internet:

-The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority—sola Scriptura—is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation.

-The Bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole authority in matters of belief. In fact, the Bible teaches that Tradition—the oral teachings given by Jesus to the apostles and their successors, the bishops—is a parallel source of authentic belief. (Quotes from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 follow).

From some books written by Catholic Apologists:

-Nowhere does [the Bible] reduce God's Word down to Scripture alone. Instead, the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is to be found in the church: her tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6) as well as her preaching and teaching (Matthew 18:17; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:20-21). That's why I think the Bible supports the Catholic principle of sola verbum Dei, "the Word of God alone," [with "Word of God" encompassing both tradition and Scripture], rather than the Protestant slogan, sola scriptura, "Scripture alone."

-The Bible actually denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ's work is in Scripture (John 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition that is handed down by word of mouth (2 Timothy 2:2). He instructs us to "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). We are told that the first Christians "were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42), which was the oral teaching given long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the canon of the New Testament was settled.

And from a public debate on the question of sola Scriptura:

-Sola Scriptura itself must be proved from Scripture alone. And if it can't be done, sola scriptura is a self refuting proposition, and therefore it is false.

- In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul commands the Church to stand firm and hold fast in the traditions that they had been given, whether orally, spoken, or through an epistle of theirs. So in other words, tradition is one major category, and there are two subsets in the one category:oral tradition, written tradition. That's what the Word of God says.

The Sufficiency of Scripture

First, it is necessary to understand what sola Scriptura does and does not assert. The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that "scientific truth" for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a "more sure Word," standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is "more sure," according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our own senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter to which it speaks. But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary.

Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take way from Scripture (cf. Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, cf. Revelation 22:18-19). To do so is to lay on people's shoulders a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matthew 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved, and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That—no more, no less—is what sola Scriptura means.

The Westminster Confession of Faith defines the sufficiency of Scripture like this:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men (1:6).

The Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Church include this statement on sola Scriptura:

Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation (article 6).

So sola Scriptura simply means that Scripture is sufficient. The fact that Jesus did and taught many things not recorded in Scripture (John 20:30; 21:25) is wholly irrelevant to the principle of sola Scriptura. The fact that most of the apostles' actual sermons in the early churches were not written down and preserved for us does not diminish the truth of biblical sufficiency one bit.What is certain is that all that is necessary is in Scripture—and we are forbidden "to exceed what is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Scripture clearly claims for itself this sufficiency—and nowhere more clearly that 2 Timothy 3:15-17. A brief summary of that passage is perhaps appropriate here as well. In short, verse 15 affirms that Scripture is sufficient for salvation: "The sacred writings . . . are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." Verse 16 affirms the absolute authority of Scripture, which is "God-breathed" (Gk. theopneustos) and profitable for our instruction. And verse 17 states that Scripture is able to equip the man of God "for every good work."

So the assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong.

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A245/scripture-tradition-and-rome-part-2
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not... (show quote)

================
You can memorize all the Scriptures of the Sola Scriptura, but still you are outside the compound, not authorized by God to teach or preach your Scriptures.

The Scriptures of the Solas are fine, though incomplete, but talking just about the Scriptures, you are still out of the boundary of God's authorization to preach it.

It is not valid, unless you follow exactly the highest mandate of God's authority. Only the Catholic Church is allowed to use, preach, and teach the Bible of Christ.

How many times this was explained but you don't understand the protocol of God
s order. You Protestants are violating that.

Reply
Nov 28, 2018 16:23:03   #
bahmer
 
Radiance3 wrote:
================
You can memorize all the Scriptures of the Sola Scriptura, but still you are outside the compound, not authorized by God to teach or preach your Scriptures.

The Scriptures of the Solas are fine, though incomplete, but talking just about the Scriptures, you are still out of the boundary of God's authorization to preach it.

It is not valid, unless you follow exactly the highest mandate of God's authority. Only the Catholic Church is allowed to use, preach, and teach the Bible of Christ.

How many times this was explained but you don't understand the protocol of God
s order. You Protestants are violating that.
================ br You can memorize all the Scrip... (show quote)


Please list the protocol of God's order. I want to see where we are violating it. Is this anywhere in the bible or is this protocol only in Rome or just where is it kept so others can view it? Is it kept in the ark of the covenant along with the ten commandments or where is it stored?

Reply
 
 
Nov 28, 2018 19:12:44   #
jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho
 
[quote=Rose42]"The assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong."

The official Catholic position on Scripture is that Scripture does not and cannot speak for itself. It must be interpreted by the Church's teaching authority, and in light of "living tradition." De facto this says that Scripture has no inherent authority, but like all spiritual truth, it derives its authority from the Church. Only what the Church says is deemed the true Word of God, the "Sacred Scripture . . . written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records."

This position obviously emasculates Scripture. That is why the Catholic stance against sola Scriptura has always posed a major problem for Roman Catholic apologists. On one hand faced with the task of defending Catholic doctrine, and on the other hand desiring to affirm what Scripture says about itself, they find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot affirm the authority of Scripture apart from the caveat that tradition is necessary to explain the Bible's true meaning. Quite plainly, that makes tradition a superior authority. Moreover, in effect it renders Scripture superfluous, for if Catholic tr adition inerrantly encompasses and explains all the truth of Scripture, then the Bible is simply redundant. Understandably, sola Scriptura has therefore always been a highly effective argument for defenders of the Reformation.

So it is not hard to understand why in recent years Catholic apologists have attacked sola Scriptura with a vengeance. If they can topple this one doctrine, all the Reformers' other points fall with it. For under the Catholic system, whatever the Church says must be the standard by which to interpret all Scripture. Tradition is the "true" Scripture, written in the heart of the Church. The Church—not Scripture written in "documents and records"—defines the truth about justification by faith, veneration of saints, transubstantiation, and a host of other issues that divided the Reformers from Rome.

To put it another way, if we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, "There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son's "co-mediatrix." And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.

If Rome can prove her case against sola Scriptura, she overturns all the arguments for the Reformation in one fell swoop. If she can establish her tradition as an infallible authority, no mere biblical argument would have any effect against the dictates of the Church.

Modern Roman Catholic apologists have therefore mounted a carefully focused attack against sola Scriptura.Hoping to turn the Reformation's greatest strength into an argument against the Reformation, they have begun to argue that it is possible to debunk sola Scriptura by using Scripture alone!This line of argument is now being employed by Catholics against evangelicalism in practically every conceivable forum.

For example, from some articles posted on the Internet:

-The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority—sola Scriptura—is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation.

-The Bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole authority in matters of belief. In fact, the Bible teaches that Tradition—the oral teachings given by Jesus to the apostles and their successors, the bishops—is a parallel source of authentic belief. (Quotes from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 follow).

From some books written by Catholic Apologists:

-Nowhere does [the Bible] reduce God's Word down to Scripture alone. Instead, the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is to be found in the church: her tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6) as well as her preaching and teaching (Matthew 18:17; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:20-21). That's why I think the Bible supports the Catholic principle of sola verbum Dei, "the Word of God alone," [with "Word of God" encompassing both tradition and Scripture], rather than the Protestant slogan, sola scriptura, "Scripture alone."

-The Bible actually denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ's work is in Scripture (John 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition that is handed down by word of mouth (2 Timothy 2:2). He instructs us to "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). We are told that the first Christians "were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42), which was the oral teaching given long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the canon of the New Testament was settled.

And from a public debate on the question of sola Scriptura:

-Sola Scriptura itself must be proved from Scripture alone. And if it can't be done, sola scriptura is a self refuting proposition, and therefore it is false.

- In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul commands the Church to stand firm and hold fast in the traditions that they had been given, whether orally, spoken, or through an epistle of theirs. So in other words, tradition is one major category, and there are two subsets in the one category:oral tradition, written tradition. That's what the Word of God says.

The Sufficiency of Scripture

First, it is necessary to understand what sola Scriptura does and does not assert. The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that "scientific truth" for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a "more sure Word," standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is "more sure," according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our own senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter to which it speaks. But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary.

Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take way from Scripture (cf. Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, cf. Revelation 22:18-19). To do so is to lay on people's shoulders a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matthew 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved, and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That—no more, no less—is what sola Scriptura means.

The Westminster Confession of Faith defines the sufficiency of Scripture like this:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men (1:6).quote]


Rose42,
Another great informative run down on Sola.
During the last two months I have read several different authors write on Sola posted by our brothers and sisters in Christ . Some condensed others detailed.
I have posted two separate writings/articles myself explaining Sola and one was very damaging to the Roman Catholic church's doctrines that depend on oral traditions or doctrines by dictates.

I noticed an interesting perspective of this article. I'll paraphrase... If the Catholic apologists can defeat Sola as non biblical then everything in Protestant faith falls...
In truth it is quite the opposite. The 66 books in the bible are the infallible and final word of God and any other book or oral traditions have to then be in full agreement with the 66 books that God gave us. This destroys the very foundation of the Roman Catholic church.

Scripture proves that the Roman Catholic church is not of God, it is false teaching, it is the doctrine of demons.

As we have witnessed in the last few weeks, when verses from the Bible are given to Catholics stating it is infallible, it is the final word. Verses that state warnings not to trust any oral traditions, verses that state all teachings are to be tested and in full agreement of the Bible, and verses that warn any other gospel other than what Paul taught, the teachers and followers would be cursed. When these verses are given, God breathed and final by God, they are disregarded as heratic. When verses are given to Catholics that prove false teaching of the Roman Catholic church, they disregard them in spite of the straight forward single interpretation or no room for any other interpretation ie: "Judus went out and hung himself" a single verse that is straight forward with no room for a second interpretation.
My point is, God's word says it is infallible, it is final, all other (any) doctrine is to be tested by it. Catholics do not believe what scripture says. Even when verses are straight forward without second interpretations. The grip, that the Catholic church has on their minds overcomes the very word of God.
The definition of a cult is: a group of people polarized around one man's opinion of the Bible, and in the case of catholic church members the pope is the final authority, whereas Protestants use of only God's word, Jesus is the final authority.
It would seem logical that humans would want to trust the final authority to Jesus over a man, the pope, but such is not the case when speaking with catholics.
Catholics actually quote former popes dictates (oral traditions) as proof that scripture is wrong when presented by a Protestant, yet they can read it for themselves, no Protestant messager required but they won't . From a logical perspective this seems more like dealing with a mentally ill delusional person. Anyone seeking truth, salvation would listen to what came first, the original (the 66 books/Bible) that came from God than words spoken after the fact by a man or other books added later.
This is the supernatural at work within cults. Satan has been jealous of God, hates man and uses counterfeit things to keep mankind separated from God. Keeping in mind that the Roman Catholic church was founded deep in pagan beliefs and over the centuries has continued its drift further and further away from the word of God, adding more requirements to salvation ensuring followers not come to the knowledge of the gospel which clarifies it as a satanic counterfeit church. There are typically three common things that lead resistance of people from leaving a cult 1.) there family, friends or both have relationships for many years that revolve around the church having activities in church and home all tied together. They fear losing the bonds and being an outsider betraying them by leaving the church. Also having close bonds with church leaders that have been involved in their lives through difficult times and joyful events (how can I disappoint these people that have always been there for me). 2.) insecure with themselves, fear of being alone. 3.) supernatural demonic blindness. God's word tells us that demons are at work in people's lives and not just possession that we see glamorized in Hollywood but oppression that can be very, very powerful in leading, influencing the lives of people, even blinding (spiritual) there eyes, there minds, also strongly effecting emotions, causing unrealistic hate, anger, lust, greed. Demonic powers are all to real which is why we have instructions...
Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Demons cannot posses Christians because the Holy Spirit isn't going to share space, however they can oppress negatively effecting Christians in many different ways.
Which brings me to 3.) supernatural blindness from seeing the truth, understanding, confusion, hate, anger, fear. Then when a Christian is witnessing the gospel, scripture showing false teaching dark forces inflict their power over them.

Have a great day,
God Bless

Reply
Nov 28, 2018 20:01:01   #
Radiance3
 
[quote=jack sequim wa]
Rose42 wrote:
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong."

The official Catholic position on Scripture is that Scripture does not and cannot speak for itself. It must be interpreted by the Church's teaching authority, and in light of "living tradition." De facto this says that Scripture has no inherent authority, but like all spiritual truth, it derives its authority from the Church. Only what the Church says is deemed the true Word of God, the "Sacred Scripture . . . written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records."

This position obviously emasculates Scripture. That is why the Catholic stance against sola Scriptura has always posed a major problem for Roman Catholic apologists. On one hand faced with the task of defending Catholic doctrine, and on the other hand desiring to affirm what Scripture says about itself, they find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot affirm the authority of Scripture apart from the caveat that tradition is necessary to explain the Bible's true meaning. Quite plainly, that makes tradition a superior authority. Moreover, in effect it renders Scripture superfluous, for if Catholic tr adition inerrantly encompasses and explains all the truth of Scripture, then the Bible is simply redundant. Understandably, sola Scriptura has therefore always been a highly effective argument for defenders of the Reformation.

So it is not hard to understand why in recent years Catholic apologists have attacked sola Scriptura with a vengeance. If they can topple this one doctrine, all the Reformers' other points fall with it. For under the Catholic system, whatever the Church says must be the standard by which to interpret all Scripture. Tradition is the "true" Scripture, written in the heart of the Church. The Church—not Scripture written in "documents and records"—defines the truth about justification by faith, veneration of saints, transubstantiation, and a host of other issues that divided the Reformers from Rome.

To put it another way, if we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, "There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son's "co-mediatrix." And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.

If Rome can prove her case against sola Scriptura, she overturns all the arguments for the Reformation in one fell swoop. If she can establish her tradition as an infallible authority, no mere biblical argument would have any effect against the dictates of the Church.

Modern Roman Catholic apologists have therefore mounted a carefully focused attack against sola Scriptura.Hoping to turn the Reformation's greatest strength into an argument against the Reformation, they have begun to argue that it is possible to debunk sola Scriptura by using Scripture alone!This line of argument is now being employed by Catholics against evangelicalism in practically every conceivable forum.

For example, from some articles posted on the Internet:

-The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority—sola Scriptura—is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation.

-The Bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole authority in matters of belief. In fact, the Bible teaches that Tradition—the oral teachings given by Jesus to the apostles and their successors, the bishops—is a parallel source of authentic belief. (Quotes from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 follow).

From some books written by Catholic Apologists:

-Nowhere does [the Bible] reduce God's Word down to Scripture alone. Instead, the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is to be found in the church: her tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6) as well as her preaching and teaching (Matthew 18:17; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:20-21). That's why I think the Bible supports the Catholic principle of sola verbum Dei, "the Word of God alone," [with "Word of God" encompassing both tradition and Scripture], rather than the Protestant slogan, sola scriptura, "Scripture alone."

-The Bible actually denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ's work is in Scripture (John 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition that is handed down by word of mouth (2 Timothy 2:2). He instructs us to "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). We are told that the first Christians "were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42), which was the oral teaching given long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the canon of the New Testament was settled.

And from a public debate on the question of sola Scriptura:

-Sola Scriptura itself must be proved from Scripture alone. And if it can't be done, sola scriptura is a self refuting proposition, and therefore it is false.

- In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul commands the Church to stand firm and hold fast in the traditions that they had been given, whether orally, spoken, or through an epistle of theirs. So in other words, tradition is one major category, and there are two subsets in the one category:oral tradition, written tradition. That's what the Word of God says.

The Sufficiency of Scripture

First, it is necessary to understand what sola Scriptura does and does not assert. The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that "scientific truth" for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a "more sure Word," standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is "more sure," according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our own senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter to which it speaks. But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary.

Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take way from Scripture (cf. Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, cf. Revelation 22:18-19). To do so is to lay on people's shoulders a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matthew 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved, and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That—no more, no less—is what sola Scriptura means.

The Westminster Confession of Faith defines the sufficiency of Scripture like this:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men (1:6).quote]


Rose42,
Another great informative run down on Sola.
During the last two months I have read several different authors write on Sola posted by our brothers and sisters in Christ . Some condensed others detailed.
I have posted two separate writings/articles myself explaining Sola and one was very damaging to the Roman Catholic church's doctrines that depend on oral traditions or doctrines by dictates.

I noticed an interesting perspective of this article. I'll paraphrase... If the Catholic apologists can defeat Sola as non biblical then everything in Protestant faith falls...
In truth it is quite the opposite. The 66 books in the bible are the infallible and final word of God and any other book or oral traditions have to then be in full agreement with the 66 books that God gave us. This destroys the very foundation of the Roman Catholic church.

Scripture proves that the Roman Catholic church is not of God, it is false teaching, it is the doctrine of demons.

As we have witnessed in the last few weeks, when verses from the Bible are given to Catholics stating it is infallible, it is the final word. Verses that state warnings not to trust any oral traditions, verses that state all teachings are to be tested and in full agreement of the Bible, and verses that warn any other gospel other than what Paul taught, the teachers and followers would be cursed. When these verses are given, God breathed and final by God, they are disregarded as heratic. When verses are given to Catholics that prove false teaching of the Roman Catholic church, they disregard them in spite of the straight forward single interpretation or no room for any other interpretation ie: "Judus went out and hung himself" a single verse that is straight forward with no room for a second interpretation.
My point is, God's word says it is infallible, it is final, all other (any) doctrine is to be tested by it. Catholics do not believe what scripture says. Even when verses are straight forward without second interpretations. The grip, that the Catholic church has on their minds overcomes the very word of God.
The definition of a cult is: a group of people polarized around one man's opinion of the Bible, and in the case of catholic church members the pope is the final authority, whereas Protestants use of only God's word, Jesus is the final authority.
It would seem logical that humans would want to trust the final authority to Jesus over a man, the pope, but such is not the case when speaking with catholics.
Catholics actually quote former popes dictates (oral traditions) as proof that scripture is wrong when presented by a Protestant, yet they can read it for themselves, no Protestant messager required but they won't . From a logical perspective this seems more like dealing with a mentally ill delusional person. Anyone seeking truth, salvation would listen to what came first, the original (the 66 books/Bible) that came from God than words spoken after the fact by a man or other books added later.
This is the supernatural at work within cults. Satan has been jealous of God, hates man and uses counterfeit things to keep mankind separated from God. Keeping in mind that the Roman Catholic church was founded deep in pagan beliefs and over the centuries has continued its drift further and further away from the word of God, adding more requirements to salvation ensuring followers not come to the knowledge of the gospel which clarifies it as a satanic counterfeit church. There are typically three common things that lead resistance of people from leaving a cult 1.) there family, friends or both have relationships for many years that revolve around the church having activities in church and home all tied together. They fear losing the bonds and being an outsider betraying them by leaving the church. Also having close bonds with church leaders that have been involved in their lives through difficult times and joyful events (how can I disappoint these people that have always been there for me). 2.) insecure with themselves, fear of being alone. 3.) supernatural demonic blindness. God's word tells us that demons are at work in people's lives and not just possession that we see glamorized in Hollywood but oppression that can be very, very powerful in leading, influencing the lives of people, even blinding (spiritual) there eyes, there minds, also strongly effecting emotions, causing unrealistic hate, anger, lust, greed. Demonic powers are all to real which is why we have instructions...
Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Demons cannot posses Christians because the Holy Spirit isn't going to share space, however they can oppress negatively effecting Christians in many different ways.
Which brings me to 3.) supernatural blindness from seeing the truth, understanding, confusion, hate, anger, fear. Then when a Christian is witnessing the gospel, scripture showing false teaching dark forces inflict their power over them.

Have a great day,
God Bless
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not... (show quote)

===============
Why you are all outlawed? The reason for that is all your beliefs are taken from the Sola Scriptura that is outside of the bounds of Christ's teachings. Although copied from the Bible of Christ, but yours is MAN-MADE. There is no authority from Christ for you to use and teach Sola Scriptura. Only the Catholic Church, God's Church who is allowed to preach, teach, keep and proclaim to the world the Gospel of Christ.

The Catholic Church consistently followed that for 1,987 years of its survival, and will continue doing that.

Good luck!

Even of you recite all those Scriptures to me nothing difference will change.
Christ is the sole authority, and nobody else.
Saints are followers of Christ. No Saint Paul could change what God had done.
Sola Scriptura is not within the compound of God's authority. Period.

Reply
Nov 28, 2018 20:09:12   #
Rose42
 
jack sequim wa wrote:

Rose42,
Another great informative run down on Sola.
During the last two months I have read several different authors write on Sola posted by our brothers and sisters in Christ . Some condensed others detailed.
I have posted two separate writings/articles myself explaining Sola and one was very damaging to the Roman Catholic church's doctrines that depend on oral traditions or doctrines by dictates.

I noticed an interesting perspective of this article. I'll paraphrase... If the Catholic apologists can defeat Sola as non biblical then everything in Protestant faith falls...
In truth it is quite the opposite. The 66 books in the bible are the infallible and final word of God and any other book or oral traditions have to then be in full agreement with the 66 books that God gave us. This destroys the very foundation of the Roman Catholic church.
br Rose42, br Another great informative run dow... (show quote)


Hi Jack. I noticed that too. John MacArthur is really good at getting to the heart of the matter. We are blessed to have him among us.


Quote:
My point is, God's word says it is infallible, it is final, all other (any) doctrine is to be tested by it. Catholics do not believe what scripture says. Even when verses are straight forward without second interpretations. The grip, that the Catholic church has on their minds overcomes the very word of God.


I agree Jack. That is one reason I left.

Quote:
The definition of a cult is: a group of people polarized around one man's opinion of the Bible, and in the case of catholic church members the pope is the final authority, whereas Protestants use of only God's word, Jesus is the final authority.
It would seem logical that humans would want to trust the final authority to Jesus over a man, the pope, but such is not the case when speaking with catholics.
Catholics actually quote former popes dictates (oral traditions) as proof that scripture is wrong when presented by a Protestant, yet they can read it for themselves, no Protestant messager required but they won't . From a logical perspective this seems more like dealing with a mentally ill delusional person. Anyone seeking truth, salvation would listen to what came first, the original (the 66 books/Bible) that came from God than words spoken after the fact by a man or other books added later.
The definition of a cult is: a group of people pol... (show quote)


I don't know if you were ever a Catholic but its hard to shed all you've ever known - the religion you were brought up in, your family's religion, your friends religion. I understand fighting back and denying what's right in front of you. Been there done that! Satan knows exactly how to attack and does all he can to lure away from the truth.

Quote:
This is the supernatural at work within cults. Satan has been jealous of God, hates man and uses counterfeit things to keep mankind separated from God. Keeping in mind that the Roman Catholic church was founded deep in pagan beliefs and over the centuries has continued its drift further and further away from the word of God, adding more requirements to salvation ensuring followers not come to the knowledge of the gospel which clarifies it as a satanic counterfeit church. There are typically three common things that lead resistance of people from leaving a cult 1.) there family, friends or both have relationships for many years that revolve around the church having activities in church and home all tied together. They fear losing the bonds and being an outsider betraying them by leaving the church. Also having close bonds with church leaders that have been involved in their lives through difficult times and joyful events (how can I disappoint these people that have always been there for me). 2.) insecure with themselves, fear of being alone. 3.) supernatural demonic blindness. God's word tells us that demons are at work in people's lives and not just possession that we see glamorized in Hollywood but oppression that can be very, very powerful in leading, influencing the lives of people, even blinding (spiritual) there eyes, there minds, also strongly effecting emotions, causing unrealistic hate, anger, lust, greed. Demonic powers are all to real which is why we have instructions...
Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Demons cannot posses Christians because the Holy Spirit isn't going to share space, however they can oppress negatively effecting Christians in many different ways.
Which brings me to 3.) supernatural blindness from seeing the truth, understanding, confusion, hate, anger, fear. Then when a Christian is witnessing the gospel, scripture showing false teaching dark forces inflict their power over them.

Have a great day,
God Bless
This is the supernatural at work within cults. Sa... (show quote)


Yes our society is permeated with evil everywhere. Leonard Ravenhill said "entertainment is the devil's playground". So true.

A while back I learned that in Hebrews 12:1 the word race comes from the Greek word agon from which we get agony! It's hard work! There is so much richness in the Bible. Why supplant that?

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"

God Bless and have a good night.

Reply
Nov 29, 2018 07:33:46   #
Radiance3
 
Rose42 wrote:
Yes our society is permeated with evil everywhere. Leonard Ravenhill said "entertainment is the devil's playground". So true.

A while back I learned that in Hebrews 12:1 the word race comes from the Greek word agon from which we get agony! It's hard work! There is so much richness in the Bible. Why supplant that?

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"

God Bless and have a good night.
Yes our society is permeated with evil everywhere.... (show quote)

====================
However you say it, reciting all the Scriptures of that OUTLAWED SOLA SCRIPTURA, all of you are sill OUTSIDE THE FENCE.

You are not authorized to preach your defective Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is not authorized by Christ to be used for proclaiming His teachings. It was the CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT WAS GIVEN SOLE AUTHORITY TO preach, teach, and use Christ's Gospel.
The Catholic Church is God's beneficiary to inherit his authority to be preached and taught to His people. That was God's final Will and Testament to Peter at Matthew 16:18.


You bypass God's authority, and all of you are LAWLESS in the eyes of God. You who belong to the Sola Scriptura, are NOT CHILDREN OF GOD. You have no COVENANT with God. You are all outlaws.

You are destroying God's authorized Church, so you think you could take over? No man could take over the power of God. No Jack Sequim, no Zemira, no Rose42, no TexaCan, no bahmer, could be called children of God. You are all ILLEGITIMATE people from the family of Christ.

You are trying to hijack God's authoritative power? God had finalized his decision, given his Catholic Church to carry on and preach His teachings to his children. The Catholic Church has been the BENEFICIARY of His Teachings, to continue teach, preach, and proclaim His teachings to all the children of God. Catholics have the COVENANT with Christ.

No Sola Scriptura outlaws.

Reply
 
 
Nov 29, 2018 08:45:20   #
Rose42
 
Radiance3 wrote:
====================
However you say it, reciting all the Scriptures of that OUTLAWED SOLA SCRIPTURA, all of you are sill OUTSIDE THE FENCE.

You are not authorized to preach your defective Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is not authorized by Christ to be used for proclaiming His teachings. It was the CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT WAS GIVEN SOLE AUTHORITY TO preach, teach, and use Christ's Gospel.
The Catholic Church is God's beneficiary to inherit his authority to be preached and taught to His people. That was God's final Will and Testament to Peter at Matthew 16:18.


You bypass God's authority, and all of you are LAWLESS in the eyes of God. You who belong to the Sola Scriptura, are NOT CHILDREN OF GOD. You have no COVENANT with God. You are all outlaws.

You are destroying God's authorized Church, so you think you could take over? No man could take over the power of God. No Jack Sequim, no Zemira, no Rose42, no TexaCan, no bahmer, could be called children of God. You are all ILLEGITIMATE people from the family of Christ.

You are trying to hijack God's authoritative power? God had finalized his decision, given his Catholic Church to carry on and preach His teachings to his children. The Catholic Church has been the BENEFICIARY of His Teachings, to continue teach, preach, and proclaim His teachings to all the children of God. Catholics have the COVENANT with Christ.

No Sola Scriptura outlaws.
==================== br However you say it, reciti... (show quote)


That doesn't make any sense Radiance. I would urge you to read the Bible and see its richness unfold more and more. Its depth is beyond what we can understand.

No one is trying to take anything over. That is silly.

Reply
Nov 29, 2018 10:53:10   #
bahmer
 
[quote=jack sequim wa]
Rose42 wrote:
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not teach sola Scriptura is simply wrong."

The official Catholic position on Scripture is that Scripture does not and cannot speak for itself. It must be interpreted by the Church's teaching authority, and in light of "living tradition." De facto this says that Scripture has no inherent authority, but like all spiritual truth, it derives its authority from the Church. Only what the Church says is deemed the true Word of God, the "Sacred Scripture . . . written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records."

This position obviously emasculates Scripture. That is why the Catholic stance against sola Scriptura has always posed a major problem for Roman Catholic apologists. On one hand faced with the task of defending Catholic doctrine, and on the other hand desiring to affirm what Scripture says about itself, they find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot affirm the authority of Scripture apart from the caveat that tradition is necessary to explain the Bible's true meaning. Quite plainly, that makes tradition a superior authority. Moreover, in effect it renders Scripture superfluous, for if Catholic tr adition inerrantly encompasses and explains all the truth of Scripture, then the Bible is simply redundant. Understandably, sola Scriptura has therefore always been a highly effective argument for defenders of the Reformation.

So it is not hard to understand why in recent years Catholic apologists have attacked sola Scriptura with a vengeance. If they can topple this one doctrine, all the Reformers' other points fall with it. For under the Catholic system, whatever the Church says must be the standard by which to interpret all Scripture. Tradition is the "true" Scripture, written in the heart of the Church. The Church—not Scripture written in "documents and records"—defines the truth about justification by faith, veneration of saints, transubstantiation, and a host of other issues that divided the Reformers from Rome.

To put it another way, if we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, "There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son's "co-mediatrix." And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.

If Rome can prove her case against sola Scriptura, she overturns all the arguments for the Reformation in one fell swoop. If she can establish her tradition as an infallible authority, no mere biblical argument would have any effect against the dictates of the Church.

Modern Roman Catholic apologists have therefore mounted a carefully focused attack against sola Scriptura.Hoping to turn the Reformation's greatest strength into an argument against the Reformation, they have begun to argue that it is possible to debunk sola Scriptura by using Scripture alone!This line of argument is now being employed by Catholics against evangelicalism in practically every conceivable forum.

For example, from some articles posted on the Internet:

-The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority—sola Scriptura—is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation.

-The Bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole authority in matters of belief. In fact, the Bible teaches that Tradition—the oral teachings given by Jesus to the apostles and their successors, the bishops—is a parallel source of authentic belief. (Quotes from 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 follow).

From some books written by Catholic Apologists:

-Nowhere does [the Bible] reduce God's Word down to Scripture alone. Instead, the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is to be found in the church: her tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6) as well as her preaching and teaching (Matthew 18:17; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:20-21). That's why I think the Bible supports the Catholic principle of sola verbum Dei, "the Word of God alone," [with "Word of God" encompassing both tradition and Scripture], rather than the Protestant slogan, sola scriptura, "Scripture alone."

-The Bible actually denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ's work is in Scripture (John 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition that is handed down by word of mouth (2 Timothy 2:2). He instructs us to "stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). We are told that the first Christians "were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42), which was the oral teaching given long before the New Testament was written—and centuries before the canon of the New Testament was settled.

And from a public debate on the question of sola Scriptura:

-Sola Scriptura itself must be proved from Scripture alone. And if it can't be done, sola scriptura is a self refuting proposition, and therefore it is false.

- In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul commands the Church to stand firm and hold fast in the traditions that they had been given, whether orally, spoken, or through an epistle of theirs. So in other words, tradition is one major category, and there are two subsets in the one category:oral tradition, written tradition. That's what the Word of God says.

The Sufficiency of Scripture

First, it is necessary to understand what sola Scriptura does and does not assert. The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that "scientific truth" for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a "more sure Word," standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is "more sure," according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our own senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter to which it speaks. But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary.

Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take way from Scripture (cf. Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, cf. Revelation 22:18-19). To do so is to lay on people's shoulders a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matthew 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved, and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That—no more, no less—is what sola Scriptura means.

The Westminster Confession of Faith defines the sufficiency of Scripture like this:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men (1:6).quote]


Rose42,
Another great informative run down on Sola.
During the last two months I have read several different authors write on Sola posted by our brothers and sisters in Christ . Some condensed others detailed.
I have posted two separate writings/articles myself explaining Sola and one was very damaging to the Roman Catholic church's doctrines that depend on oral traditions or doctrines by dictates.

I noticed an interesting perspective of this article. I'll paraphrase... If the Catholic apologists can defeat Sola as non biblical then everything in Protestant faith falls...
In truth it is quite the opposite. The 66 books in the bible are the infallible and final word of God and any other book or oral traditions have to then be in full agreement with the 66 books that God gave us. This destroys the very foundation of the Roman Catholic church.

Scripture proves that the Roman Catholic church is not of God, it is false teaching, it is the doctrine of demons.

As we have witnessed in the last few weeks, when verses from the Bible are given to Catholics stating it is infallible, it is the final word. Verses that state warnings not to trust any oral traditions, verses that state all teachings are to be tested and in full agreement of the Bible, and verses that warn any other gospel other than what Paul taught, the teachers and followers would be cursed. When these verses are given, God breathed and final by God, they are disregarded as heratic. When verses are given to Catholics that prove false teaching of the Roman Catholic church, they disregard them in spite of the straight forward single interpretation or no room for any other interpretation ie: "Judus went out and hung himself" a single verse that is straight forward with no room for a second interpretation.
My point is, God's word says it is infallible, it is final, all other (any) doctrine is to be tested by it. Catholics do not believe what scripture says. Even when verses are straight forward without second interpretations. The grip, that the Catholic church has on their minds overcomes the very word of God.
The definition of a cult is: a group of people polarized around one man's opinion of the Bible, and in the case of catholic church members the pope is the final authority, whereas Protestants use of only God's word, Jesus is the final authority.
It would seem logical that humans would want to trust the final authority to Jesus over a man, the pope, but such is not the case when speaking with catholics.
Catholics actually quote former popes dictates (oral traditions) as proof that scripture is wrong when presented by a Protestant, yet they can read it for themselves, no Protestant messager required but they won't . From a logical perspective this seems more like dealing with a mentally ill delusional person. Anyone seeking truth, salvation would listen to what came first, the original (the 66 books/Bible) that came from God than words spoken after the fact by a man or other books added later.
This is the supernatural at work within cults. Satan has been jealous of God, hates man and uses counterfeit things to keep mankind separated from God. Keeping in mind that the Roman Catholic church was founded deep in pagan beliefs and over the centuries has continued its drift further and further away from the word of God, adding more requirements to salvation ensuring followers not come to the knowledge of the gospel which clarifies it as a satanic counterfeit church. There are typically three common things that lead resistance of people from leaving a cult 1.) there family, friends or both have relationships for many years that revolve around the church having activities in church and home all tied together. They fear losing the bonds and being an outsider betraying them by leaving the church. Also having close bonds with church leaders that have been involved in their lives through difficult times and joyful events (how can I disappoint these people that have always been there for me). 2.) insecure with themselves, fear of being alone. 3.) supernatural demonic blindness. God's word tells us that demons are at work in people's lives and not just possession that we see glamorized in Hollywood but oppression that can be very, very powerful in leading, influencing the lives of people, even blinding (spiritual) there eyes, there minds, also strongly effecting emotions, causing unrealistic hate, anger, lust, greed. Demonic powers are all to real which is why we have instructions...
Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Demons cannot posses Christians because the Holy Spirit isn't going to share space, however they can oppress negatively effecting Christians in many different ways.
Which brings me to 3.) supernatural blindness from seeing the truth, understanding, confusion, hate, anger, fear. Then when a Christian is witnessing the gospel, scripture showing false teaching dark forces inflict their power over them.

Have a great day,
God Bless
"The assertion that the Bible itself does not... (show quote)



Very good Jack and I totally agree and I am learning from you as I read each of your posts they are well thought out and to the point. Also unlike Doc and Radiance there is no anger and animosity in your posts. I truly believe that their biggest problem is the fact that it was an individual that was studying for the priesthood in their glorious Roman Catholic Church that discovered the giant ponzi scheme that the Roman Catholic Church was using to deceive and hoodwink the parishioners in the Roman Catholic Church at that time and it has only gotten worse over time. Again Amen and Amen

Reply
Nov 29, 2018 13:42:56   #
jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho
 
Radiance3 wrote:
===============
Why you are all outlawed? The reason for that is all your beliefs are taken from the Sola Scriptura that is outside of the bounds of Christ's teachings. Although copied from the Bible of Christ, but yours is MAN-MADE. There is no authority from Christ for you to use and teach Sola Scriptura. Only the Catholic Church, God's Church who is allowed to preach, teach, keep and proclaim to the world the Gospel of Christ.

The Catholic Church consistently followed that for 1,987 years of its survival, and will continue doing that.

Good luck!

Even of you recite all those Scriptures to me nothing difference will change.
Christ is the sole authority, and nobody else.
Saints are followers of Christ. No Saint Paul could change what God had done.
Sola Scriptura is not within the compound of God's authority. Period.
=============== br Why you are all outlawed? The ... (show quote)




Everything in your reply is a lie.
Jesus is the rock.... Catholic church of the devil.

Genocide..... For centuries tried to eradicate Christianity.

Burned bibles.....

Hmmm catholic church burned bibles.... Is of God? Nope


Catholic church for centuries even recent years murdered Christians because they would not convert...... Is of God?... Nope.

Reply
Nov 29, 2018 14:33:31   #
Radiance3
 
jack sequim wa wrote:
Everything in your reply is a lie.
Jesus is the rock.... Catholic church of the devil.

Genocide..... For centuries tried to eradicate Christianity.

Burned bibles.....

Hmmm catholic church burned bibles.... Is of God? Nope


Catholic church for centuries even recent years murdered Christians because they would not convert...... Is of God?... Nope.


================
Of course you will say the word lie. You do that every time you open your lying mouth. Gangsters do that every time they are convicted.
That is your only defense. Even if you gang-up on me from time to time.

But the fact of the matter is Sola Scriptura where you get your daily Scriptures has been outlawed. Sola Scriptura accept it, is Man-Made. Sola Scriptura is incomplete, no history, only created 500 years ago. Sola Scriptura has NO Authority from God to preach His teachings.

Why do you insist?

Even if the 4 of you gang-up on me, I am not bothered. I am standing on a concrete foothold, and not on a sand like yours.

All the Scriptures you are taking from Sola Scriptura has no power over Christ's authority.
Christ embraced His Catholic Church to proclaim His teachings to His children. Christ made His Covenant with His Children through His Body and Blood which is the new and everlasting Covenant with the children of God. You don't have that Covenant with Christ.

Good day!

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