Rose42

Zemirah you may know - it looks like you've done a lot of research into Catholicism. I'm curious. I don't know the history of it.

bahmer

I think that one of them came from the fall of Adam and Eve but not sure which one and the other is a mystery.

bahmer

I just googled it and the mortal sins are the ones that send your soul to hell and venial sins are the lesser sins that don't send you to hell. I guess like cheating in a card game would be veniel and murder would fall into the mortal group I guess.

Rose42

Yes thats correct. I wonder how the Catholics justify the two categories. As I child I was terrified of mortal sin.

bahmer

Mortal sins damn you to hell and venial sins are like telling a white lie or playing a prank on someone they won't damn you to hell but they aren't nice either is my understanding.

bahmer

Hope this helps some.

In order to know if the Bible teaches the concepts of mortal and venial sin, some basic descriptions will be helpful. The concepts of mortal and venial sin are essentially Roman Catholic. Evangelical Christians and Protestants may or may not be familiar with these terms. Working definitions of mortal and venial sins could be these: Mortal Sin is “sin causing spiritual death,” and Venial Sin is “sin that can be forgiven.” Venial sin is invariably used in contrast with mortal sin. Mortal sins are those sins that exclude people from the kingdom; venial sins are those sins that do not exclude people from it. Venial sin differs from mortal sin in the punishment it entails. Venial sin merits temporal punishment expiated by confession or by the fires of purgatory, while mortal sin merits eternal death.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church is found this description of mortal sin: “For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: ‘Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.’” According to the Catechism, “Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.” The Catechism further states that mortal sin “results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell.”

Regarding venial sin, the Catechism states the following: “One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent. Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of virtues and practice of moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God; it does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. ‘Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.’”

In summary, mortal sin is an intentional violation of the Ten Commandments (in thought, word or deed), committed in full knowledge of the gravity of the matter, and it results in the loss of salvation. Salvation may be regained through repentance and God’s forgiveness. Venial sin may be a violation of the Ten Commandments or a sin of a lesser nature, but it is committed unintentionally and/or without full consent. Although damaging to one’s relationship with God, venial sin does not result in loss of eternal life.

Biblically, the concepts of mortal and venial sin present several problems: first of all, these concepts present an unbiblical picture of how God views sin. The Bible states that God will be just and fair in His punishment of sin and that on the day of judgment some sin will merit greater punishment than others (Matthew 11:22, 24; Luke 10:12, 14). But the fact is that all sin will be punished by God. The Bible teaches that all of us sin (Romans 3:23) and that the just compensation for sin is eternal death (Romans 6:23). Over and against the concepts of mortal and venial sin, the Bible does not state that some sins are worthy of eternal death whereas others are not. All sins are mortal sins in that even one sin makes the offender worthy of eternal separation from God.

The Apostle James articulates this fact in his letter (James 2:10): “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” Notice his use of the word “stumbles.” It means to make a mistake or fall into error. James is painting a picture of a person who is trying to do the right thing and yet, perhaps unintentionally, commits a sin. What is the consequence? God, through His servant James, states when a person commits even unintentional sin, he is guilty of breaking the entire law. A good illustration of this fact is to picture a large window and understand that window to be God’s law. It doesn’t matter if a person throws a very small pebble through the window or several large boulders. The result is the same--the window is broken. In the same way, it doesn’t matter if a person commits one small sin or several huge ones. The result is the same--the person is guilty of breaking God’s law. And the Lord declares that He will not leave the guilty unpunished (Nahum 1:3).

Second, these concepts present an unbiblical picture of God’s payment for sin. In both cases of mortal and venial sin, forgiveness of the given transgression is dependent upon the offender making restitution of some type. In Roman Catholicism, this restitution may take the form of going to confession, praying a certain prayer, receiving the Eucharist, or another ritual of some type. The basic thought is that in order for Christ’s forgiveness to be applied to the offender, the offender must perform some work, and then the forgiveness is granted. The payment and forgiveness of the transgression is dependent upon the offender’s actions.

Is this what the Bible teaches regarding the payment for sin? The Bible clearly teaches that the payment for sin is not found in or based upon the actions of the sinner. Consider the words of 1 Peter 3:18, “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.” Take note of the wording, “Christ also died for sins once for all.” This passage teaches that for the person who is believing in Jesus Christ, all of his or her sins have been taken care of on the cross. Christ died for all of them. This includes the sins the believer committed before salvation and the ones he has committed and will commit after salvation.

Colossians 2:13 and 14 confirms this fact: “When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He [God] made you alive together with Him [Christ], having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” God has “forgiven us all our transgressions.” Not just the sins of the past, but all of them. They have been nailed to the cross and taken out of the way. When Jesus, on the cross, stated, “It is finished” (John 19:30), He was stating that He had fulfilled all that was necessary to grant forgiveness and eternal life to those who would believe in Him. This is why Jesus says in John 3:18 that “he who believes in Him [Jesus] is not judged.” Paul states this fact in Romans 8:1: “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Why are believers not judged? Why is there no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? It is because the death of Christ satisfied God’s righteous wrath against sin (1 John 4), and now those who trust in Christ will not bear the penalty of that sin.

Whereas the concepts of mortal and venial sin place responsibility to gain God’s forgiveness for a given transgression in the hands of the offender, the Bible teaches that all sins of the believer are forgiven at the cross of Christ. The Bible does teach by word (Galatians 6:7 and 8) and example (2 Samuel 11-20) that when a Christian gets involved in sin, he or she may reap temporal, physical, emotional, mental and/or spiritual consequences. But the believer never has to reacquire God’s forgiveness due to personal sin because God’s Word declares that God’s wrath toward the believer’s sin was satisfied completely at the cross.

Third, these concepts present an unbiblical picture of God’s dealings with His children. Clearly, according to Roman Catholicism, one of the consequences of committing a mortal sin is that it removes eternal life from the offender. Also, according to this concept, God will grant again eternal life through repentance and good works.

Rose42

I'd forgotten so much of that. The Catholic doctrine has no Biblical basis for it. I was just reading their justification for tradition as being as important as the Bible. Again, absolutely no Biblical basis. It breaks my heart that so many people follow a false religion.

bahmer

And I found all of the above by simply googling it so if even a web page con come up with this kind of information then what will be their excuse before God and what will be their defense. All of that tradition bull and oral tradition bull will not stand before a Holy God when the facts are before them.

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

I wouldn't put any stock in what google says about spiritual matters !

One only needs to ask God to lead you in your search the scriptures with the idea of knowing what the truth is so looking to the secular world in hopes of finding the truth in spiritual matters is like going to a fortune teller about a broken leg !

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

It seems to me that this whole concept is an attempt to wrest from God His sovereignty, having deluded oneself into the belief that we can effect our own salvation by establishing our own rules based on whatever we find to be reasonable... There's that Garden of Eden influence again... which predates Roman Catholicism.

Ever since humankind has understood the difference between good and evil, which snapped their built-in conscience into gear, they have twisted every-which-way they can to continue to commit iniquity, in a newly "whitewashed" disguise.

It is accomplished as Satan always attempts to usurp God's authority, by very subtly twisting the meaning of His Words.

As to specifics:

Byzantine Catholics http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/116725/morta... :

"It shows good judgment and common sense to have some sort of division between 'grave' (mortal) sins and 'lesser' (venial) sins. The basic idea is spelled out in Scripture, the verse about how there is sin that leads to death, but not all sin leads to death."


God's Word refutes the preceding generalization of what is spelled out in Scripture:

The Soul that Sinneth dies and the Spirit returns to God
( Ecclesiastics 12.7)

My favorite commentary (Gill's Commentary - 18th century):

1 John 5:17 "All Unrighteousness is Sin."

"All unrighteousness against God or man is a sin against the law of God, and the wrath of God is revealed against it, and it is deserving of death; yet all unrighteousness is not unto death, as the sins of David, which were unrighteousness both to God and man, and yet they were put away, and he died not; Peter sinned very foully, and did great injustice to his dear Lord, and yet his sin was not unto death; he had repentance unto life given him, and a fresh application of pardoning grace:

"and there is a sin not unto death;"

this is added for the relief of weak believers, who hearing of a sin unto death, not to be prayed for, might fear that theirs were of that kind, whereas none of them are; for though they are guilty of many unrighteousnesses , yet God is merciful to them and forgives, ( Hebrews 8:12 ) , and so they are not unto death."
(because they are in Christ Jesus)

2nd century:
Ignatius of Antioch, also known as Ignatius Theophorus or Ignatius Nurono, was an early Christian writer and bishop of Antioch. En route to Rome, where he met his martyrdom, Ignatius wrote a series of letters and expressed this concept,

"The Early Church Fathers taught that any one who dies in a state of mortal sin will suffer for all eternity in hell."

His correspondence now forms a central part of the later collection known as the Apostolic Fathers.
Born:15 May 35 A.D, Province of Syria, Roman Empire
Died:6 July 108 (aged 73), Rome, Roman Empire

3rd century:

Tertullian full name Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, c. 155 – c. 240 AD, was a prolific early Christian author from Carthage in the Roman province of Africa. Of Berber origin, he was the first Christian author to produce an extensive corpus of Latin Christian literature, and was said to have the concept:

"Discipline governs a man, power sets a seal upon him; apart from the fact that power is the Spirit, but the Spirit is God. What, moreover, used the Spirit to teach? That there must be no communicating with the works of darkness. Observe what he bids. Who, moreover, was able to forgive sins? This is his alone prerogative: for 'who remits sins but God alone?' and, of course, who but he can remit mortal sins, such as have been committed against himself and against his temple?"

15th century:
"Nothing must be said to injure another’s character or to find fault, because if I reveal a mortal sin that is not public, I sin mortally; if a venial sin, venially; and if a defect, I show a defect of my own." Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola, b.1491,

Because they are not anchored to God's Word, Roman Catholicism has autonomously (and arbitrarily) changed the rules about sin, and what must be done to pay for it. Their teaching on absolution from serious sins has varied throughout their history. The current Catholic teaching was formalized at the 16th century Council of Trent.

Allow me to rebeat this drum:

God's Word overrules all these suppositions of man, by declaring His forgiveness of all their sins, for those who are in Christ Jesus:"

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”(Hebrews 8:12)

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

This is a follow-up to the preceding post, based in part on Dr. Paul M. Elliott's Original Sin, Mortal Sin, Venial Sin, and my own books on early Christianity.


Rome's Mistaken View of Sin and Its Consequences

Roman Catholicism teaches that God deals with sins in different kinds of ways: water baptism, the Mass, acts of penance by the individual, and time spent in purgatory after death - or, ultimately, in Hell if the individual dies with "mortal sin" unconfessed.

Rome asserts that baptism with water is "the sacrament of regeneration by water in the word." That is, Rome teaches that the placement of consecrated water upon an individual, adult or infant, accompanied by the priest's pronouncement of the words, "I baptize," removes original sin, regenerates the soul, and makes the individual a Christian.

Rome further asserts that there are two kinds of sin, mortal and venial. Rome says that a mortal sin is a sin that, unless forgiven and fully absolved, condemns a person to Hell immediately after death. Rome defines a venial sin (meaning "forgivable" sin) as a lesser sin that does not result in a complete separation from God and eternal damnation in Hell.

A venial sin involves a "partial loss of grace" from God. According to Catholic teaching, mortal sin requires the sacrament of penance (confession to a priest who pronounces sentence, that is, acts of penance the person must do to pay for his sin). Otherwise, if a person dies with a mortal sin on his soul, according to Catholic teaching he will go straight to Hell. Purgatory is not an option for a mortal sin, only the sacrament of penance.

Rome over time has repeatedly and arbitrarily changed the definition of what constitutes a mortal sin. As recently as fifty years ago, eating meat on Friday - even just a piece of baloney - was a mortal sin. But today Rome says it is alright to eat that piece of baloney unless the church proclaims a meatless Friday, and then eating a piece of salami is now only a venial sin.

On the other hand, according to Catholic teaching, a venial sin can be purged away through jail time spent in purgatory. Rome says that if a person who dies has someone praying for him while in purgatory, the length of his sentence can be reduced. Or, if the person got some kind of indulgence beforehand (yes, Rome still offers them, for doing various things ranging from making the sign of the cross, to going to some holy place or shrine, to giving financial gifts to the church) the person who has committed venial sin can have time in purgatory reduced for good behavior. But once again - only for venial sin.

Rome readily admits that these teachings are not founded primarily in Scripture, but in church tradition, which it views as superior to Scripture.

Authentic Christianity in Contrast

Authentic Biblical Christianity says that Christ's full and final blood atonement deals once and for all with our sin nature - and specific sins we commit as the result of that nature:

"Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen." (Galatians 1:3-5)

Bondage to Rome vs. Freedom in Christ

Roman Catholic teaching keeps sinners in bondage by making rules and regulations of which Scripture knows nothing - and by changing them at its whim. In contrast, those who are trusting in Christ alone for their salvation have been redeemed from such bondage, on the sole and supreme authority of the Word of God, "forever settled in Heaven" (Psalm 119:89), given to us by the One "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Zeroing in on a specific individual who, a few decades after Constantine's triumph, sought to classify sins.

The 4th Century "Desert" Church Father/Monk/Escapee Credited With Originally Categorizing "Evil Thoughts"


Evagrius Ponticus (Greek: Εὐάγριος ὁ Ποντικός, "Evagrius of Pontus"), also called Evagrius the Solitary (345–399 AD), was a Christian monk and ascetic. One of the most influential theologians in the late fourth-century church, he was well known as a thinker, polished speaker, and gifted writer. He left a promising ecclesiastical career in Constantinople and traveled to Jerusalem, where in 383 he became a monk at the monastery of Rufinus and Melania the Elder. He then went to Egypt and spent the remaining years of his life in Nitria and Kellia, marked by years of asceticism and writing. He was a disciple of several influential contemporary church leaders, including Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Macarius of Egypt. He was a teacher of others, including John Cassian and Palladius.

Saint Melania the Elder was a spiritual mentor to Evagrius of Pontus, later author of the Eastern Orthodox Philokalia; she persuaded him to go to Egypt to join the desert ascetics and carried on a correspondence with him while he was there.

The most prominent feature of his research was a system of various forms of temptation. He developed a comprehensive list in AD 375 of eight evil thoughts (λογισμοὶ), or eight terrible temptations, from which all sinful behavior springs. This list was intended to serve a diagnostic purpose: to help readers identify the process of temptation, their own strengths and weaknesses, and the remedies available for overcoming temptation.

Evagrius stated, "The first thought of all is that of love of self; after this, the eight"

The eight patterns of evil thought are gluttony, greed, sloth, sorrow, lust, anger, vainglory, and pride.

While he did not create the list from scratch, he did refine it. Some two centuries later in 590 AD, Pope Gregory I, "Pope Gregory The Great" would revise this list to form the more commonly known Seven Deadly Sins, where Pope Gregory the Great combined acedia (discouragement) with tristitia (sorrow), calling the combination the sin of sloth; vainglory with pride; and added envy to the list of "Seven Deadly Sins".
Apatheia

In Evagrius' time, the Greek word apatheia was used to refer to a state of being without passion. Evagrius wrote: "A man in chains cannot run. Nor can the mind that is enslaved to passion see the place of spiritual prayer. It is dragged along and tossed by these passion-filled thoughts and cannot stand firm and tranquil."

Evagrius taught that tears were the utmost sign of true repentance and that weeping, even for days at a time, opened one up to God.

Saint Melania the Elder, Latin Sancta Melania Maior (born in Spain, ca. 350 – died in Jerusalem before 410 or in ca. 417 was a Desert Mother who was an influential figure in the Christian ascetic movement (the Desert Fathers and Mothers) that sprang up in the generation after the Emperor Constantine made Christianity a legal religion of the Roman Empire. She was a contemporary of, and well known to, Abba Macarius and other Desert Fathers in Egypt, Saint Jerome, Saint Augustine of Hippo, Saint Paulinus of Nola (her cousin or cousin-in-law; he gives a colorful description of her visit to Nola in his Letters), and Evagrius of Pontus, and she founded two religious communities on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. She stands out for the convent she founded for herself and the monastery she established in honour of Rufinus of Aquileia, which belong to the earliest Christian communities, and because she promoted the asceticism which she, as a follower of Origen, considered indispensable for salvation.

Asceticism is a lifestyle characterized by abstinence from sensual pleasures, often for the purpose of pursuing spiritual goals.

Followers of Christ are told to deny self (Luke 9:23), but asceticism takes this command to an extreme.
The Bible never suggests that a Christian should purposely seek out discomfort or pain.
On the contrary, God has richly blessed us “with everything for our enjoyment” (1 Timothy 6:17).
The Bible warns of those who “forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods” (1 Timothy 4:3);
thus, it is erroneous to believe that celibates who abstain from certain foods are “more holy” than other people.


We are under grace, not under the law (Romans 6:14); therefore, the Christian does not live by a set of rules but by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Christ has set us free (John 8:36). In many cases, the ascetic practices self-denial in order to earn God’s favor or somehow purge himself from sin. This shows a misunderstanding of grace; no amount of austerity can earn salvation or merit God’s love (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Monasticism is not biblical in that it ignores our responsibility to go into all the world and preach the gospel (Matthew 28:19). While we are not part of the world, we are in it, and the church was never intended to be isolated from people in need of Christ (1 Corinthians 5:9-10).

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

Good Afternoon Zemirah!

It’s cold and dreary here in central Texas today ( anything under 50 degrees is considered cold to me and Charlie).

That was quite a lesson! I only have one thing to say! Thank God I’m a Baptist! Being a Catholic would be way to complicated for me! One would have to create a scoreboard to keep up with their sins!

I’m so thankful of the simplicity of the Gospel that is taught in the love letter that Jesus wrote to his Bride, his Church, in the Bible! That isn’t my description of the Bible, I read those words many years ago and always thought it was a beautiful thought!

Hope you’re warm and having a wonderful Sunday afternoon!

MARANATHA!

bahmer

Where did this idea of purgatory come from in the Catholic Church is there jesus not sufficient to forgive all of their sins ao that they have to go to purgatory and pay for their sins themselves? I could never be a Catholic way to complicated for me it is much like the Jewish leaders during the time of Christ heaping on the people rules and regulations that not even they could follow.

susanblange Loc: USA

There are seven deadly sins that cannot be forgiven. Other sins can be forgiven if the offender repents. This is a four step process. Remorse, confession, restitution, and change. The "guilty" are those who have committed a deadly sin and those who refuse to repent of their sin. The seven deadly sins are 1) Any sin against God's person. 2) Abuse or neglect of a child. 3) Murder. 4) Rape. 5) Kidnapping. 6) Paying or taking a bribe. 7) False witness or swearing falsely by the name of God. The guilty will go to Hell but it's not forever. Eventually their spirit will be extinguished and they will cease to exist. The punishment will fit the crime. Only Satan will rot forever in Hell forever.