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Sep 10, 2018 03:48:31   #
JW
 
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of American politics, we need to go back to England in the 17 century. John Locke and Thomas Hobbes laid the foundation and the American Founders developed our fundamental political philosophies from their ideas. The two men had very different views but both contributed to what we regard as the American political system. Locke more on the theoretical side and Hobbes on the ethos of civilization. I suggest that you begin with them and things will begin to become clear as you get to Jefferson, Adams and Franklin. Then, look up Madison v. Marbury and you will see where the Supreme Court comes into the picture.

The Federalist Papers will explain how the founders laid the groundwork for the Bill of Rights and their concepts of self government.

However, First, we need to understand some basic English. I am referred to as conservative. I am not conservative in most of my political views. I still consider myself to be a JFK Democrat as I was through most of my v****g life, 'til 1995. My views have changed a bit over the years but have not changed all that much, I now regard myself politically as a Conservative. It is the politics that has changed. Bluntly, I am a political Conservative but most of my views are liberal... but I am not a Liberal. The small 'l' and small 'c' represent adjectives. The adjective describes the associated/understood noun. The capital 'L' and capital 'C' denote the nouns. They mean very different things.

The adjectives represent the leanings of the individual so described in any number of possible areas. A liberal person might be opposed to Gay marriage and a conservative person might be pro-choice on the a******n issue. Those are personal leanings but are the opposite positions of their similarly named political entities represented by the nouns.

It is true that the Southern Democrats considered themselves to be conservative people, in that they wanted to retain the affectations and accoutrements of their history and culture, but they were never political Conservatives. The Republicans and the Whigs before them were political Conservatives. To understand that, you need to understand Locke and Hobbes and the thinking regimes of the Founders. This will also make clear that the American political system is and always has been a liberal ideology. Again, small 'l', and that includes both sides of the aisle.

The BOTTOM LINE is simple and consistent throughout the history of American politics. It is the Right in the political spectrum that has consistently fought for individual freedom and opportunity and the Left that has consistently fought against it.

Andrew Jackson, a Democrat (originally Democratic Republican Party, the forerunner of the Democrat Party) is responsible for the trail of tears and the assaults on the Seminoles of Florida. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union. It was Democrats in the South and in the North that formed the KKK. It was Democrats that established the Jim Crow laws. It was Democrats that fought the right of Women to v**e and it was Democrats that fought the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was Democrats that blew up black churches murdering little girls, murdered Viola Liuzzo for ferrying civil rights protesters, murdered Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Neshoba County, Mississippi in June 1964 during the Civil Rights Movement.

The fact that Democrats now disingenuously claim a mythical moral right to the Republican accomplishments in advancing personal freedoms is remarkable and ironic, not to mention hypocritical as Hell. In their rush to maintain the pretense, they now promote some of the most ludicrous and anti-reality political planks. Those are some ideas no rational human being could support (unisex toilet facilities, fluid g****r, sanctuary cities, open borders, etc.) and would not be supported even by the Left but for the fact that they are trapped in those things in order to maintain the pretense they now hang their political hats on.

Reply
Sep 10, 2018 05:27:29   #
maximus Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
 
JW wrote:
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of American politics, we need to go back to England in the 17 century. John Locke and Thomas Hobbes laid the foundation and the American Founders developed our fundamental political philosophies from their ideas. The two men had very different views but both contributed to what we regard as the American political system. Locke more on the theoretical side and Hobbes on the ethos of civilization. I suggest that you begin with them and things will begin to become clear as you get to Jefferson, Adams and Franklin. Then, look up Madison v. Marbury and you will see where the Supreme Court comes into the picture.

The Federalist Papers will explain how the founders laid the groundwork for the Bill of Rights and their concepts of self government.

However, First, we need to understand some basic English. I am referred to as conservative. I am not conservative in most of my political views. I still consider myself to be a JFK Democrat as I was through most of my v****g life, 'til 1995. My views have changed a bit over the years but have not changed all that much, I now regard myself politically as a Conservative. It is the politics that has changed. Bluntly, I am a political Conservative but most of my views are liberal... but I am not a Liberal. The small 'l' and small 'c' represent adjectives. The adjective describes the associated/understood noun. The capital 'L' and capital 'C' denote the nouns. They mean very different things.

The adjectives represent the leanings of the individual so described in any number of possible areas. A liberal person might be opposed to Gay marriage and a conservative person might be pro-choice on the a******n issue. Those are personal leanings but are the opposite positions of their similarly named political entities represented by the nouns.

It is true that the Southern Democrats considered themselves to be conservative people, in that they wanted to retain the affectations and accoutrements of their history and culture, but they were never political Conservatives. The Republicans and the Whigs before them were political Conservatives. To understand that, you need to understand Locke and Hobbes and the thinking regimes of the Founders. This will also make clear that the American political system is and always has been a liberal ideology. Again, small 'l', and that includes both sides of the aisle.

The BOTTOM LINE is simple and consistent throughout the history of American politics. It is the Right in the political spectrum that has consistently fought for individual freedom and opportunity and the Left that has consistently fought against it.

Andrew Jackson, a Democrat (originally Democratic Republican Party, the forerunner of the Democrat Party) is responsible for the trail of tears and the assaults on the Seminoles of Florida. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union. It was Democrats in the South and in the North that formed the KKK. It was Democrats that established the Jim Crow laws. It was Democrats that fought the right of Women to v**e and it was Democrats that fought the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was Democrats that blew up black churches murdering little girls, murdered Viola Liuzzo for ferrying civil rights protesters, murdered Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Neshoba County, Mississippi in June 1964 during the Civil Rights Movement.

The fact that Democrats now disingenuously claim a mythical moral right to the Republican accomplishments in advancing personal freedoms is remarkable and ironic, not to mention hypocritical as Hell. In their rush to maintain the pretense, they now promote some of the most ludicrous and anti-reality political planks. Those are some ideas no rational human being could support (unisex toilet facilities, fluid g****r, sanctuary cities, open borders, etc.) and would not be supported even by the Left but for the fact that they are trapped in those things in order to maintain the pretense they now hang their political hats on.
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of A... (show quote)



Bombs away! Ka-boom!!! Right on target !!!

Reply
Sep 10, 2018 05:44:21   #
Forkbassman Loc: Missouri
 
Dinesh D’Sousa’s new movie, Death of a Nation; excellent, must-see!!

Reply
 
 
Sep 10, 2018 06:48:30   #
ACP45 Loc: Rhode Island
 
JW wrote:
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of American politics, we need to go back to England in the 17 century. John Locke and Thomas Hobbes laid the foundation and the American Founders developed our fundamental political philosophies from their ideas. The two men had very different views but both contributed to what we regard as the American political system. Locke more on the theoretical side and Hobbes on the ethos of civilization. I suggest that you begin with them and things will begin to become clear as you get to Jefferson, Adams and Franklin. Then, look up Madison v. Marbury and you will see where the Supreme Court comes into the picture.

The Federalist Papers will explain how the founders laid the groundwork for the Bill of Rights and their concepts of self government.

However, First, we need to understand some basic English. I am referred to as conservative. I am not conservative in most of my political views. I still consider myself to be a JFK Democrat as I was through most of my v****g life, 'til 1995. My views have changed a bit over the years but have not changed all that much, I now regard myself politically as a Conservative. It is the politics that has changed. Bluntly, I am a political Conservative but most of my views are liberal... but I am not a Liberal. The small 'l' and small 'c' represent adjectives. The adjective describes the associated/understood noun. The capital 'L' and capital 'C' denote the nouns. They mean very different things.

The adjectives represent the leanings of the individual so described in any number of possible areas. A liberal person might be opposed to Gay marriage and a conservative person might be pro-choice on the a******n issue. Those are personal leanings but are the opposite positions of their similarly named political entities represented by the nouns.

It is true that the Southern Democrats considered themselves to be conservative people, in that they wanted to retain the affectations and accoutrements of their history and culture, but they were never political Conservatives. The Republicans and the Whigs before them were political Conservatives. To understand that, you need to understand Locke and Hobbes and the thinking regimes of the Founders. This will also make clear that the American political system is and always has been a liberal ideology. Again, small 'l', and that includes both sides of the aisle.

The BOTTOM LINE is simple and consistent throughout the history of American politics. It is the Right in the political spectrum that has consistently fought for individual freedom and opportunity and the Left that has consistently fought against it.

Andrew Jackson, a Democrat (originally Democratic Republican Party, the forerunner of the Democrat Party) is responsible for the trail of tears and the assaults on the Seminoles of Florida. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union. It was Democrats in the South and in the North that formed the KKK. It was Democrats that established the Jim Crow laws. It was Democrats that fought the right of Women to v**e and it was Democrats that fought the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was Democrats that blew up black churches murdering little girls, murdered Viola Liuzzo for ferrying civil rights protesters, murdered Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Neshoba County, Mississippi in June 1964 during the Civil Rights Movement.

The fact that Democrats now disingenuously claim a mythical moral right to the Republican accomplishments in advancing personal freedoms is remarkable and ironic, not to mention hypocritical as Hell. In their rush to maintain the pretense, they now promote some of the most ludicrous and anti-reality political planks. Those are some ideas no rational human being could support (unisex toilet facilities, fluid g****r, sanctuary cities, open borders, etc.) and would not be supported even by the Left but for the fact that they are trapped in those things in order to maintain the pretense they now hang their political hats on.
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of A... (show quote)

===============

JW,
I'm not big on labels - they are often misleading at best. For example, what is the definition of the word "liberal"? If you go to Dictionary.com (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/liberal), this is what you will find:

Adjective
1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.

4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

6. of or relating to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.

7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.

8. open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.

9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.

10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.

11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.

Other than #11, (I do believe that words mean what they say, and like our constitution, should be interpreted strictly according to the meaning at that time), how can you really find fault with any of these descriptions of "liberal".

But, in today's society, can anyone actually say that someone who claims to be "liberal" fits that description. Do our SJW's fit the description of "open-minded" or "tolerant"?

How about "freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties", or "favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression"? Just look at recent actions of Google, Facebook, Twitter, and most MSM outlets claiming the right to "enforce their version of h**e speech" or "intolerance".

One could probably do the same critique of the word "conservative". In fact, Lawrence Vance wrote an article that should be somewhat embarasing for those who call themselves conservative. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/08/laurence-m-vance/conservatives-should-be-embarrassed/

Would it not be better to avoid whenever possible the idea of labeling someone, or some idea or concept as liberal, conservative, libertarian, f*****t, anarchistic, etc., and judge the person, idea or concept on it's own merits?

Live and let live, love your neighbor as yourself, and respect the rights of each individual to do as they see fit, so long as they do not interfere with the rights of anyone else.

Reply
Sep 10, 2018 08:13:44   #
old marine Loc: America home of the brave
 
JW wrote:
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of American politics, we need to go back to England in the 17 century. John Locke and Thomas Hobbes laid the foundation and the American Founders developed our fundamental political philosophies from their ideas. The two men had very different views but both contributed to what we regard as the American political system. Locke more on the theoretical side and Hobbes on the ethos of civilization. I suggest that you begin with them and things will begin to become clear as you get to Jefferson, Adams and Franklin. Then, look up Madison v. Marbury and you will see where the Supreme Court comes into the picture.

The Federalist Papers will explain how the founders laid the groundwork for the Bill of Rights and their concepts of self government.

However, First, we need to understand some basic English. I am referred to as conservative. I am not conservative in most of my political views. I still consider myself to be a JFK Democrat as I was through most of my v****g life, 'til 1995. My views have changed a bit over the years but have not changed all that much, I now regard myself politically as a Conservative. It is the politics that has changed. Bluntly, I am a political Conservative but most of my views are liberal... but I am not a Liberal. The small 'l' and small 'c' represent adjectives. The adjective describes the associated/understood noun. The capital 'L' and capital 'C' denote the nouns. They mean very different things.

The adjectives represent the leanings of the individual so described in any number of possible areas. A liberal person might be opposed to Gay marriage and a conservative person might be pro-choice on the a******n issue. Those are personal leanings but are the opposite positions of their similarly named political entities represented by the nouns.

It is true that the Southern Democrats considered themselves to be conservative people, in that they wanted to retain the affectations and accoutrements of their history and culture, but they were never political Conservatives. The Republicans and the Whigs before them were political Conservatives. To understand that, you need to understand Locke and Hobbes and the thinking regimes of the Founders. This will also make clear that the American political system is and always has been a liberal ideology. Again, small 'l', and that includes both sides of the aisle.

The BOTTOM LINE is simple and consistent throughout the history of American politics. It is the Right in the political spectrum that has consistently fought for individual freedom and opportunity and the Left that has consistently fought against it.

Andrew Jackson, a Democrat (originally Democratic Republican Party, the forerunner of the Democrat Party) is responsible for the trail of tears and the assaults on the Seminoles of Florida. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union. It was Democrats in the South and in the North that formed the KKK. It was Democrats that established the Jim Crow laws. It was Democrats that fought the right of Women to v**e and it was Democrats that fought the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was Democrats that blew up black churches murdering little girls, murdered Viola Liuzzo for ferrying civil rights protesters, murdered Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Neshoba County, Mississippi in June 1964 during the Civil Rights Movement.

The fact that Democrats now disingenuously claim a mythical moral right to the Republican accomplishments in advancing personal freedoms is remarkable and ironic, not to mention hypocritical as Hell. In their rush to maintain the pretense, they now promote some of the most ludicrous and anti-reality political planks. Those are some ideas no rational human being could support (unisex toilet facilities, fluid g****r, sanctuary cities, open borders, etc.) and would not be supported even by the Left but for the fact that they are trapped in those things in order to maintain the pretense they now hang their political hats on.
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of A... (show quote)

😏🙄😁😉😎

Reply
Sep 10, 2018 09:03:42   #
Smedley_buzkill
 
JW wrote:
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of American politics, we need to go back to England in the 17 century. John Locke and Thomas Hobbes laid the foundation and the American Founders developed our fundamental political philosophies from their ideas. The two men had very different views but both contributed to what we regard as the American political system. Locke more on the theoretical side and Hobbes on the ethos of civilization. I suggest that you begin with them and things will begin to become clear as you get to Jefferson, Adams and Franklin. Then, look up Madison v. Marbury and you will see where the Supreme Court comes into the picture.

The Federalist Papers will explain how the founders laid the groundwork for the Bill of Rights and their concepts of self government.

However, First, we need to understand some basic English. I am referred to as conservative. I am not conservative in most of my political views. I still consider myself to be a JFK Democrat as I was through most of my v****g life, 'til 1995. My views have changed a bit over the years but have not changed all that much, I now regard myself politically as a Conservative. It is the politics that has changed. Bluntly, I am a political Conservative but most of my views are liberal... but I am not a Liberal. The small 'l' and small 'c' represent adjectives. The adjective describes the associated/understood noun. The capital 'L' and capital 'C' denote the nouns. They mean very different things.

The adjectives represent the leanings of the individual so described in any number of possible areas. A liberal person might be opposed to Gay marriage and a conservative person might be pro-choice on the a******n issue. Those are personal leanings but are the opposite positions of their similarly named political entities represented by the nouns.

It is true that the Southern Democrats considered themselves to be conservative people, in that they wanted to retain the affectations and accoutrements of their history and culture, but they were never political Conservatives. The Republicans and the Whigs before them were political Conservatives. To understand that, you need to understand Locke and Hobbes and the thinking regimes of the Founders. This will also make clear that the American political system is and always has been a liberal ideology. Again, small 'l', and that includes both sides of the aisle.

The BOTTOM LINE is simple and consistent throughout the history of American politics. It is the Right in the political spectrum that has consistently fought for individual freedom and opportunity and the Left that has consistently fought against it.

Andrew Jackson, a Democrat (originally Democratic Republican Party, the forerunner of the Democrat Party) is responsible for the trail of tears and the assaults on the Seminoles of Florida. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union. It was Democrats in the South and in the North that formed the KKK. It was Democrats that established the Jim Crow laws. It was Democrats that fought the right of Women to v**e and it was Democrats that fought the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was Democrats that blew up black churches murdering little girls, murdered Viola Liuzzo for ferrying civil rights protesters, murdered Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Neshoba County, Mississippi in June 1964 during the Civil Rights Movement.

The fact that Democrats now disingenuously claim a mythical moral right to the Republican accomplishments in advancing personal freedoms is remarkable and ironic, not to mention hypocritical as Hell. In their rush to maintain the pretense, they now promote some of the most ludicrous and anti-reality political planks. Those are some ideas no rational human being could support (unisex toilet facilities, fluid g****r, sanctuary cities, open borders, etc.) and would not be supported even by the Left but for the fact that they are trapped in those things in order to maintain the pretense they now hang their political hats on.
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of A... (show quote)


I am trying to decide... do you sound like me or do I sound like you? Excellent post.

Reply
Sep 10, 2018 12:28:36   #
PeterS
 
JW wrote:
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of American politics, we need to go back to England in the 17 century. John Locke and Thomas Hobbes laid the foundation and the American Founders developed our fundamental political philosophies from their ideas. The two men had very different views but both contributed to what we regard as the American political system. Locke more on the theoretical side and Hobbes on the ethos of civilization. I suggest that you begin with them and things will begin to become clear as you get to Jefferson, Adams and Franklin. Then, look up Madison v. Marbury and you will see where the Supreme Court comes into the picture.

The Federalist Papers will explain how the founders laid the groundwork for the Bill of Rights and their concepts of self government.

However, First, we need to understand some basic English. I am referred to as conservative. I am not conservative in most of my political views. I still consider myself to be a JFK Democrat as I was through most of my v****g life, 'til 1995. My views have changed a bit over the years but have not changed all that much, I now regard myself politically as a Conservative. It is the politics that has changed. Bluntly, I am a political Conservative but most of my views are liberal... but I am not a Liberal. The small 'l' and small 'c' represent adjectives. The adjective describes the associated/understood noun. The capital 'L' and capital 'C' denote the nouns. They mean very different things.

The adjectives represent the leanings of the individual so described in any number of possible areas. A liberal person might be opposed to Gay marriage and a conservative person might be pro-choice on the a******n issue. Those are personal leanings but are the opposite positions of their similarly named political entities represented by the nouns.

It is true that the Southern Democrats considered themselves to be conservative people, in that they wanted to retain the affectations and accoutrements of their history and culture, but they were never political Conservatives. The Republicans and the Whigs before them were political Conservatives. To understand that, you need to understand Locke and Hobbes and the thinking regimes of the Founders. This will also make clear that the American political system is and always has been a liberal ideology. Again, small 'l', and that includes both sides of the aisle.

The BOTTOM LINE is simple and consistent throughout the history of American politics. It is the Right in the political spectrum that has consistently fought for individual freedom and opportunity and the Left that has consistently fought against it.

Andrew Jackson, a Democrat (originally Democratic Republican Party, the forerunner of the Democrat Party) is responsible for the trail of tears and the assaults on the Seminoles of Florida. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union. It was Democrats in the South and in the North that formed the KKK. It was Democrats that established the Jim Crow laws. It was Democrats that fought the right of Women to v**e and it was Democrats that fought the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was Democrats that blew up black churches murdering little girls, murdered Viola Liuzzo for ferrying civil rights protesters, murdered Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Neshoba County, Mississippi in June 1964 during the Civil Rights Movement.

The fact that Democrats now disingenuously claim a mythical moral right to the Republican accomplishments in advancing personal freedoms is remarkable and ironic, not to mention hypocritical as Hell. In their rush to maintain the pretense, they now promote some of the most ludicrous and anti-reality political planks. Those are some ideas no rational human being could support (unisex toilet facilities, fluid g****r, sanctuary cities, open borders, etc.) and would not be supported even by the Left but for the fact that they are trapped in those things in order to maintain the pretense they now hang their political hats on.

It is true that the Southern Democrats considered themselves to be conservative people, in that they wanted to retain the affectations and accoutrements of their history and culture, but they were never political Conservatives. The Republicans and the Whigs before them were political Conservatives. To understand that, you need to understand Locke and Hobbes and the thinking regimes of the Founders. This will also make clear that the American political system is and always has been a liberal ideology. Again, small 'l', and that includes both sides of the aisle.
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of A... (show quote)

Well, Locke is considered the father of liberalism and Hobbes is considered the father of conservatism so what do I need to read from to understand what is what? And Southern Democrats were conservatives through and through. I know you are trying to escape responsibility for r****m and the horrors it brought about but it was the social side of conservatism where all the r****m and bigotry is associated with. It only t***sfers to the political side for action but it was the culture of r****m that led to all the ills associated with it.

As for Jackson look at the part of the country that he hails from and that will tell you what ideology he adheres to. Look it up for yourself as I know you will dismiss it if you can.

Remember, the south had an agrarian economy with little need for a big government telling them what to do. At most, the only thing government did for the south was the post and roads thereof but nothing else. The north, on the other hand, had a capitalistic economy which needed big government to develop banking, finance, and public infrastructures--including canals, roads, schools and even railroads. So the south was controlled by big 'C' conservatives and the north by big 'L' liberals which is why the South had no chance in winning the Civil War...none at all...

And to be honest JW, you have so confabulated your thought process to escape any responsibility for the warts associated with conservatism that there isn't much reason to debate you. If you are determined to believe up is down then believe it and more power to you.

All the best to you...

Reply
 
 
Sep 10, 2018 12:35:58   #
JW
 
ACP45 wrote:
===============

JW,
I'm not big on labels - they are often misleading at best. For example, what is the definition of the word "liberal"? If you go to Dictionary.com (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/liberal), this is what you will find:

Adjective
1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.

4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

6. of or relating to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.

7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.

8. open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.

9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.

10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.

11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.

Other than #11, (I do believe that words mean what they say, and like our constitution, should be interpreted strictly according to the meaning at that time), how can you really find fault with any of these descriptions of "liberal".

But, in today's society, can anyone actually say that someone who claims to be "liberal" fits that description. Do our SJW's fit the description of "open-minded" or "tolerant"?

How about "freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties", or "favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression"? Just look at recent actions of Google, Facebook, Twitter, and most MSM outlets claiming the right to "enforce their version of h**e speech" or "intolerance".

One could probably do the same critique of the word "conservative". In fact, Lawrence Vance wrote an article that should be somewhat embarasing for those who call themselves conservative. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/08/laurence-m-vance/conservatives-should-be-embarrassed/

Would it not be better to avoid whenever possible the idea of labeling someone, or some idea or concept as liberal, conservative, libertarian, f*****t, anarchistic, etc., and judge the person, idea or concept on it's own merits?

Live and let live, love your neighbor as yourself, and respect the rights of each individual to do as they see fit, so long as they do not interfere with the rights of anyone else.
=============== br br JW, br I'm not big on label... (show quote)


You missed the whole point of what I wrote. It was specifically negating any political exclusivity of the adjectival forms of the words, liberal and conservative. So you elect to post the definition of the adjective. What can I say?

Reply
Sep 10, 2018 12:45:22   #
JW
 
PeterS wrote:
Well, Locke is considered the father of liberalism and Hobbes is considered the father of conservatism so what do I need to read from to understand what is what? And Southern Democrats were conservatives through and through. I know you are trying to escape responsibility for r****m and the horrors it brought about but it was the social side of conservatism where all the r****m and bigotry is associated with. It only t***sfers to the political side for action but it was the culture of r****m that led to all the ills associated with it.

As for Jackson look at the part of the country that he hails from and that will tell you what ideology he adheres to. Look it up for yourself as I know you will dismiss it if you can.

Remember, the south had an agrarian economy with little need for a big government telling them what to do. At most, the only thing government did for the south was the post and roads thereof but nothing else. The north, on the other hand, had a capitalistic economy which needed big government to develop banking, finance, and public infrastructures--including canals, roads, schools and even railroads. So the south was controlled by big 'C' conservatives and the north by big 'L' liberals which is why the South had no chance in winning the Civil War...none at all...

And to be honest JW, you have so confabulated your thought process to escape any responsibility for the warts associated with conservatism that there isn't much reason to debate you. If you are determined to believe up is down then believe it and more power to you.

All the best to you...
Well, Locke is considered the father of liberalism... (show quote)


Both men are liberals (small 'l'). Neither was conservative (adj) in the political sense. In their day, there was no such thing as a Conservative (big 'C'). If you can't understand that, there is no hope of understanding American political realities.

Reply
Sep 10, 2018 14:48:08   #
PeterS
 
JW wrote:
Both men are liberals (small 'l'). Neither was conservative (adj) in the political sense. In their day, there was no such thing as a Conservative (big 'C'). If you can't understand that, there is no hope of understanding American political realities.

How are those who are credited with starting a new ideology little c or little l? You don't have a clue what you are talking about. Would Christ be a little c for Christian? And I understand political reality extremely well.

Here is all I ask--provide a link to any article that states that conservatives were members of the Whig party. Just that, you don't have to do anything else. Deal?

And I'm not asking for Republicans. I already stipulated that but I also provided a dictionary definition that stated Whigs were on the liberal side of the political spectrum so if that's all you can find you are simply verifying what I already stated.

So what I want is that Whig's are conservatives. That's it, nothing more...

Reply
Sep 10, 2018 15:33:22   #
PeterS
 
JW wrote:
You missed the whole point of what I wrote. It was specifically negating any political exclusivity of the adjectival forms of the words, liberal and conservative. So you elect to post the definition of the adjective. What can I say?

What I can say is that you are ignoring what liberal and conservative mean and how they evolved into the ideologies we have today. You can play your silly little games all you like but you still can't deflect that you haven't a clue what you are talking about. Pull up any dictionary, online or in print, and they will state that Whig's are on the left side of the political spectrum and that Tories are to the right of the political spectrum. You can confabulate all you like but you can't make the world upside down just to suit your political thinking.

Where exactly did you get your training? From the looks of it, everything you spout is self-taught which is fine save for the fact that you are doing so mainly to satisfy your political ideology and not any particular desire to actually learn anything. So play your games all you like but I get tired of playing games and it that's all you've got then there isn't much reason to even strike up a conversation is there...

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Sep 10, 2018 16:24:31   #
Morgan
 
ACP45 wrote:
===============

JW,
I'm not big on labels - they are often misleading at best. For example, what is the definition of the word "liberal"? If you go to Dictionary.com (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/liberal), this is what you will find:

Adjective
1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.

4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

6. of or relating to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.

7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.

8. open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.

9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.

10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.

11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.

Other than #11, (I do believe that words mean what they say, and like our constitution, should be interpreted strictly according to the meaning at that time), how can you really find fault with any of these descriptions of "liberal".

But, in today's society, can anyone actually say that someone who claims to be "liberal" fits that description. Do our SJW's fit the description of "open-minded" or "tolerant"?

How about "freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties", or "favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression"? Just look at recent actions of Google, Facebook, Twitter, and most MSM outlets claiming the right to "enforce their version of h**e speech" or "intolerance".

One could probably do the same critique of the word "conservative". In fact, Lawrence Vance wrote an article that should be somewhat embarasing for those who call themselves conservative. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/08/laurence-m-vance/conservatives-should-be-embarrassed/

Would it not be better to avoid whenever possible the idea of labeling someone, or some idea or concept as liberal, conservative, libertarian, f*****t, anarchistic, etc., and judge the person, idea or concept on it's own merits?

Live and let live, love your neighbor as yourself, and respect the rights of each individual to do as they see fit, so long as they do not interfere with the rights of anyone else.
=============== br br JW, br I'm not big on label... (show quote)


Well said, we are always better off not generalizing, nor profiling in either party(s). Since when did we have to buy the whole package deal from a party? Go issue by issue, and maybe it's time to put the issues into the hands of the people to decide for themselves what is best for them and allow them to v**e on the issues.

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Sep 10, 2018 16:51:18   #
Morgan
 
JW wrote:
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of American politics, we need to go back to England in the 17 century. John Locke and Thomas Hobbes laid the foundation and the American Founders developed our fundamental political philosophies from their ideas. The two men had very different views but both contributed to what we regard as the American political system. Locke more on the theoretical side and Hobbes on the ethos of civilization. I suggest that you begin with them and things will begin to become clear as you get to Jefferson, Adams and Franklin. Then, look up Madison v. Marbury and you will see where the Supreme Court comes into the picture.

The Federalist Papers will explain how the founders laid the groundwork for the Bill of Rights and their concepts of self government.

However, First, we need to understand some basic English. I am referred to as conservative. I am not conservative in most of my political views. I still consider myself to be a JFK Democrat as I was through most of my v****g life, 'til 1995. My views have changed a bit over the years but have not changed all that much, I now regard myself politically as a Conservative. It is the politics that has changed. Bluntly, I am a political Conservative but most of my views are liberal... but I am not a Liberal. The small 'l' and small 'c' represent adjectives. The adjective describes the associated/understood noun. The capital 'L' and capital 'C' denote the nouns. They mean very different things.

The adjectives represent the leanings of the individual so described in any number of possible areas. A liberal person might be opposed to Gay marriage and a conservative person might be pro-choice on the a******n issue. Those are personal leanings but are the opposite positions of their similarly named political entities represented by the nouns.

It is true that the Southern Democrats considered themselves to be conservative people, in that they wanted to retain the affectations and accoutrements of their history and culture, but they were never political Conservatives. The Republicans and the Whigs before them were political Conservatives. To understand that, you need to understand Locke and Hobbes and the thinking regimes of the Founders. This will also make clear that the American political system is and always has been a liberal ideology. Again, small 'l', and that includes both sides of the aisle.

The BOTTOM LINE is simple and consistent throughout the history of American politics. It is the Right in the political spectrum that has consistently fought for individual freedom and opportunity and the Left that has consistently fought against it.

Andrew Jackson, a Democrat (originally Democratic Republican Party, the forerunner of the Democrat Party) is responsible for the trail of tears and the assaults on the Seminoles of Florida. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union. It was Democrats in the South and in the North that formed the KKK. It was Democrats that established the Jim Crow laws. It was Democrats that fought the right of Women to v**e and it was Democrats that fought the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was Democrats that blew up black churches murdering little girls, murdered Viola Liuzzo for ferrying civil rights protesters, murdered Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Neshoba County, Mississippi in June 1964 during the Civil Rights Movement.

The fact that Democrats now disingenuously claim a mythical moral right to the Republican accomplishments in advancing personal freedoms is remarkable and ironic, not to mention hypocritical as Hell. In their rush to maintain the pretense, they now promote some of the most ludicrous and anti-reality political planks. Those are some ideas no rational human being could support (unisex toilet facilities, fluid g****r, sanctuary cities, open borders, etc.) and would not be supported even by the Left but for the fact that they are trapped in those things in order to maintain the pretense they now hang their political hats on.
To do decent job of explaining the foundation of A... (show quote)


One perspective you are not including is the changing of the parties over time. One time, in particular, was after the civil war and another during the civil rights movements of the sixty's which were not from the Republicans but clearly from the Democrats. I don't believe it's a good idea to pin one party as the enemy, that only incites the other party to do the same. Both sides have their virtues and vices, in a good working condition both sides will offset the weaknesses of the other but when we become so polarized as we have, we become a dysfunctional government.

If you notice, the Republican party is focused primarily on external affairs and protection from foreign entities, while the Democratic tend to protect internally, in the rights and protections of the people, both are important and crucial for a country's healthy sustainable balance and sovereignty.

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Sep 10, 2018 17:28:58   #
PeterS
 
Morgan wrote:
One perspective you are not including is the changing of the parties over time. One time, in particular, was after the civil war and another during the civil rights movements of the sixty's which were not from the Republicans but clearly from the Democrats. I don't believe it's a good idea to pin one party as the enemy, that only incites the other party to do the same. Both sides have their virtues and vices, in a good working condition both sides will offset the weaknesses of the other but when we become so polarized as we have, we become a dysfunctional government.

If you notice, the Republican party is focused primarily on external affairs and protection from foreign entities, while the Democratic tend to protect internally, in the rights and protections of the people, both are important and crucial for a country's healthy sustainable balance and sovereignty.
One perspective you are not including is the chang... (show quote)


I tried to explain that to him several pages ago. I think he gets it but since he would have to admit that conservatives are the principal holders of r****m in this county he won't touch it honestly with a ten-foot pole. Better to speak nonsense than to speak honestly and admit that conservatism the home of r****m in this country today. He has things so confabulated that he thinks Whigs are conservatives and Tories liberals even though every dictionary in the world says the opposite. He doesn't get that when it says Whigs formed the early Republican party that means that the Republican party was created by northern intellectuals and that it leaned left of center. The Democratic party, on the other hand, was formed by Southern Conservatives and very much right of center. Thus the Civil War was started by conservatives in order to preserve the status quo. Lincoln would have none of it though because if the union was to resolve it would be on someone else watch.

Anyway, anyone interested in history it is interesting to trace how our ideologies formed and evolved to where they are today. JW isn't one who is fascinated by history more than he is about trying to manipulate it to save face. Who does he think he is kidding though--his fellow peeps who believe what they are told and are told what they believe? He certainly isn't going to change the mind of anyone who can think for themselves though so where does that leave him except where he started in the first place. He can lecture this fellow peeps and they can sing his intellectual prowess. If you want you can have some fun with him. I just want him to answer one question and then I have no more use for faux intellectuals of the conservative kind...

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Sep 10, 2018 18:38:24   #
maximus Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
 
ACP45 wrote:
===============

JW,
I'm not big on labels - they are often misleading at best. For example, what is the definition of the word "liberal"? If you go to Dictionary.com (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/liberal), this is what you will find:

Adjective
1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.

4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

6. of or relating to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.

7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.

8. open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.

9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.

10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.

11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.

Other than #11, (I do believe that words mean what they say, and like our constitution, should be interpreted strictly according to the meaning at that time), how can you really find fault with any of these descriptions of "liberal".

But, in today's society, can anyone actually say that someone who claims to be "liberal" fits that description. Do our SJW's fit the description of "open-minded" or "tolerant"?

How about "freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties", or "favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression"? Just look at recent actions of Google, Facebook, Twitter, and most MSM outlets claiming the right to "enforce their version of h**e speech" or "intolerance".

One could probably do the same critique of the word "conservative". In fact, Lawrence Vance wrote an article that should be somewhat embarasing for those who call themselves conservative. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/08/laurence-m-vance/conservatives-should-be-embarrassed/

Would it not be better to avoid whenever possible the idea of labeling someone, or some idea or concept as liberal, conservative, libertarian, f*****t, anarchistic, etc., and judge the person, idea or concept on it's own merits?

Live and let live, love your neighbor as yourself, and respect the rights of each individual to do as they see fit, so long as they do not interfere with the rights of anyone else.
=============== br br JW, br I'm not big on label... (show quote)


Word meanings have changed. For instance, gay USED to mean happy. Q***r USED to mean unusual. Actually, you don't hear 'q***r' much anymore. Chill USED to mean to cool, now it means to coral your attitude. Gangster USED to mean Al Capone types, now it means vicious young black people.
Liberal, meaning, to support progressive politics, doesn't say what they want to progress to.
Why is it that when you see someone with green or purple hair and multiple piercings, that you almost never think,'that must be a conservative'.
And, yes, you should love your neighbor, but our liberal neighbors ( in the new meaning of the word) are the ones who h**e and will not accept that Hillary lost. Even our ex-president id calling for people to stand and fight. You know as we all do, that this message will be taken literally as we have already seen. They also label hard and heavy. That's the way it IS today.

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