rumitoid

Gloria Steinem once famously said, "If men could get pregnant, a******n would be a sacrament." As a man, if I could get pregnant, I would not abort no matter the circumstances. This is a subject that I have thought long and hard about over decades. My position has never changed or wavered. From around thirteen, I have held a strict Catholic view (though no longer Catholic) about "Thou shalt not murder." You may know this from some of my posts on my reasons for volunteering for the draft out of college and wanting to go to Vietnam. That aside, it is just a personal conviction, like my one about patriotism.
On that point, for me, I see absolutely no place for the f**g or patriotic songs in church. Besides expressing why to another Christian who may ask about my beliefs, I would never bring it up, chide, mock, condemn, attempt to convince, or gossip about anyone who believed differently. I see that as personal and could neatly fall under Romans14:1: "Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters." I see my conviction on patriotism a "disputable matter." Is A******n the same?

What does the Bible say on A******n? Spoiler: nothing directly against it. Consider these passages:
1.) "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." -- Exodus 21:22-23
2.) "And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver." -- Leviticus 27:6
3.) "Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD." -- Numbers 3:15-16
(It seems fairly plain by these verses that a life was considered to be "one month up.")
4.) "And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore k**l every male among the little ones, and k**l every woman that hath known man by lying with him." -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been k**led along with their unborn fetuses.)

"Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts." -- Hosea 9:14

"Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb." -- Hosea 9:16

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." -- Hosea 13:16

And consider these things or find something in the Bible that directly condemns a******n:
God sometimes k**ls newborn babies to punish their parents.

"Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes a******ns by cursing unfaithful wives.

"The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
"And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed." -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

"Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." -- Genesis 38:24
https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/a******n.html

If we want to follow God and the Bible, should we not model his behavior in the world? Put another way, shouldn't his actions be a model of behavior for us? All civilized people roundly and rightly condemn genocide, yet God commanded it! (Or so the writer's of the Bible insist.) Do you want to put such an atrocity down to "God's mysterious ways, his wonders to perform"?

Hemiman Loc: Communist California

They have a right to control “their bodies” it’s the tiny bodies inside these murderers that I am concerned with.Hope they are forced to have the child and after it’s safe the mother explodes.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I agree, a woman has the right to control their bodies and has a right to birth control in the form of saying no to having sex. Further, they have a right to preventative methods..... there are many very effective methods on the market. A******n should not be provided as a form of birth control. After conception, that life has a right to be born and loved. If this is not possible by the mother, then adoption is an option. A******n is murder.

Weasel Loc: In the Great State Of Indiana!!

So are you in favor of overturning Roe V Wade
Or not?

rumitoid

I thoroughly agree. Yet what I wanted to do with referencing the Bible on this topic was to take away any possible religious objections to the practice. There are none. Basic human decency is enough to see, for me, that a******n is wrong. If it could be me, I am not undecided about rape and incest: have the child. Thought long and hard on that point. If we had such a standard accepted by our society, the sacredness of all life, I feel it would extend into every area of our existence. Less likely abuse and crime and suicide. Those were all present before Roe vs Wade and repealing that law will not do away with abuse and crime and suicide. Yet bringing it to consciousness, discussing it in the open, laying bare all the arguments for and against and its effects on the human soul, might just elevate our general awareness to greater heights of compassion and respect. Hard to say, yet it seems worth a try.

Now for the tricky part: contraception. That is still ending or preventing life. Obviously, if we did away with contraception, we will have more pregnancies. Hormones rule, unfortunately, ads passion its Queen. We cannot change human nature. Yet we can change how we treat human nature. Drunk and disorderly is a crime, despite the diminished capacity or total blackout. Most are barely responsible for what they do. But it is still a crime because they made an initial choice to drink, knowing or not knowing to the degree of its effects and their subsequent acts. They are held accountable. Why not the same accountability for sex? Repressive!

People who view any gun control as repressive are in the same category. A******n, like gun violence, is out of control. The First Amendment, the most basic and fundamental right in this Republic, has reasonable restrictions. The argument will be "Sex Police" as far as irresponsible conjugal c**plings. Yet is it "Alcohol Police" or "Word Police" for those other laws?

The "Sexual Revolution" was seen as throwing the oppressive shackles of religious fundamentalists, of freeing the libido to finally openly indulge in a natural act of attraction and passion, a basic instinct of humankind. I understand, having been crushed in 12 years of parochial school by the weight of that judgment. Yet murder and h**e and violence and bigotry and war and gossip and selfishness and greed, among other things, all have proven basic to our nature. The planet is headed for destruction by our failure to act decisively on such issues. "Anything goes" is now the motto rushing us headlong into an apocalyptic end.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Preventing pregnancy is not the same as taking a life that has already started.
I read a statement that has stayed with me for many years, and to me it is a statement based on the bible, with the teaching of my Poppa, and still is true for me. I believe that "we do not just have souls. We ARE souls that have bodies. Each soul has a purpose on Earth and was known by their Creator long before they were conceived." It is not our “choice” which souls are given a chance at life.

EmilyD

I totally agree with both of your posts. Once a life has started - no matter how "young" that life is (hours, days old) - willfully ending that life because it is an inconvenience to someone is murder. There are so many ways to prevent that life from beginning in the first place, that once a woman begins another human being's life, they should be made to give up the "right" to "do wh**ever they want" with their bodies. Someone has to stand up for the hundreds of thousands of humans that are k**led every year in the US. In 2014, 652,639 legal induced a******ns were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. That number increases every year.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Really, dude, you have a talent for arguing in contradictions. You create a conundrum using OT laws and expect to be taken seriously. Did you ever actually study the Bible? Try to peel back the layers of symbolism, metaphor, allegory and parables? It is a known fact among those who truly study the Bible that the more they learn the less they know about God. So, what exactly are you trying to say here?

What do you think Jesus meant when He said, "Think not that I come to abolish the law and the prophets, I come not to abolish, but to fulfill"?

Crayons Loc: St Jo, Texas

He won't answer, Either because of his ignorance or because he knows "that those who usurp the Law of Moses"
and the Ten Commandments will all be sent to the boiling pit of sewage.

rumitoid

If I prevent living saving measures on a critically ill or mortally wounded person, am I not in effect taking their life, whose survival, within the normal bounds of reasonableness, rests in their professional hands? If I prevent a so-called life-saving operation on someone, am I not guilty of at least manslaughter should they die? I feel my analogies hold true. There are contraceptives meant to k**l any uterine growth. Are they okay?

But I love these words of your poppa: "It is not our 'choice' which souls are given a chance at life." Amen!

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

No you are not taking their life if you do not render life saving measures and you are untrained. A doctor can refuse to take new patients, this is before the patient is examined. However, a doctor who already accepts a patient can not refuse treatment or they must refer the patient to a doctor to perform the services. Of course, a patient can refuse life saving efforts. If you see someone drown and you are part of an organized ambulance agency, fire department, law enforcement organization or rescue squad, you have what is known as a duty to act and are bound to provide help. However, if you are untrained then you are not responsible to render aid. Assisted suicide would come closer to what you want to say. Those individual who assist in every state except Oregon, Washington and Vermont are committing manslaughter if they supply the means or medications, even if they do not give the medication, gun, or other means. Those individuals who commit suicide have a choice..... a baby in the womb does not have a choice of living or dying. Did you know that a fetus will fight to live? Some early aborted children fight even after they are surgically removed and have been know to survive for hours. Indeed, a fetus at 20 weeks gestation are known to survive... and grow up.

Birth control pills change the females hormones making pregnancy less likely, but not 100 percent effective as the success rate for birth control pills still leaves a margin for pregnancy (91 percent effective). An IUD prevents sperm from successful penetration of the ovas (99 percent effective). In both, the method will not k**l a fetus. Of course there are other methods ranging from 88 percent effective to 100 percent (even a Vasectomy is only 99 percent effective). None of those methods will k**l a fetus.

The morning after pill, in my opinion, is the same as a******n and should never be put in the same category as contraceptive measures.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Thank you EmilyD.... Too many children are murdered! Poppa would say, an ounce of prevention is more valuable than a ton of cure. Long ago, women felt guilt when they ended their child's life, now it seems their hearts have grown numb.... Again, thank you for the additional info and support!

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

The best argument in favor of women who don't want children controlling their bodies is that they can avoid the one activity that will impregnate them. I believe God has something to say regarding sexual promiscuity and fornication.

rumitoid

Did you ever actually offer your own thoughts? Why insult or degrade me? That is always a hint, almost a fact the accuser is wanting. What is that need to feel superior or right?

How I see "Think not that I come to abolish the law and the prophets, I come not to abolish, but to fulfill." If you are a Pauline, that is someone who finds the Epistles of Paul as a legitimate part of the Bible, I feel you will agree with my conclusions on the topic. If you disregard Paul entirely, there is no avenue of intercourse (although I can make the same case from Red-lettered words of Christ).

The Jews did not, and could not, keep their covenant with God to perfectly follow his law. They were seriously in breach of their contract. By their failure, Jesus could "abolish the law and the prophets." Instead in mercy, Jesus took on the yoke of the Jews to fulfill the law through his perfect obedience to the Father. The law is now Christ who lives in us through spirit and grace, not effort and intent.

rumitoid

You are a very decent person. A good heart. I always feel a bit awkward with your lovely ilk because my mind never shuts up. You are right and I agree, but I do not feel it, You do. Thank God people like you exist.