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Apr 7, 2014 01:02:03   #
UncleJesse Loc: Hazzard Co, GA
 
Here's a well written article with my favorite part quoted below. It is a refreshing t***h against all the Russian propaganda lies being sold by uninformed readers.

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20140407/cleisure/cleisure5.html

Quote:

"The president, Viktor Yanukovych, against whom the first small protest was organised, disappeared for seven days and eventually left his country. The democratically elected representatives of the people of Ukraine responded to fill the leadership vacuum created by Yanukovych's cowardice, organising a temporary, technocratic interim government and early, responsibly organised e******ns.

In April, that interim government will propose economic and political reforms that ensure a voice to each citizen of Ukraine. In May, the population of Ukraine will elect a new president with a mandate to build the future Ukraine that all of its people want.

first-hand account

Meanwhile, in Crimea, Russia has torn down and discarded the international legal order and thrown away the very notion of the rule of law. A forced, rushed, and illegal 'referendum', against the backdrop of a foreign military intervention, was used to justify a blatant land grab by a neighbouring country. That precedent cannot stand. Crimea is Ukraine. The border recognised in the Ukrainian constitution is the border of sovereign Ukraine. The world has not been fooled into believing that a referendum engineered by Russia somehow justifies what is simply a land grab by force."
br "The president, Viktor Yanukovych, agains... (show quote)

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Apr 7, 2014 01:13:18   #
Brian Devon
 
UncleJesse wrote:
Here's a well written article with my favorite part quoted below. It is a refreshing t***h against all the Russian propaganda lies being sold by uninformed readers.

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20140407/cleisure/cleisure5.html





The Ukraine is like Iraq. The only reason the U.S. has the slightest interest is Kiev's role in the gas and oil pipeline business.

The Ukraine and Russia have a long complicated relationship going back 800 years. In the 1990s they got a divorce after the USSR imploded. It remains a messy divorce with fighting over child custody (the Crimea). It is strictly none of our business.

How would the U.S. feel if Moscow joined Mexican maneuvers along our southern border?

There will always be border disputes on planet earth. Since WWII, our sticking our long noses in these types of disputes has resulted in disaster.

Exhibit A: Vietnam

The only Americans who gain from these fiascos are the folks who have huge defense contractor portfolios......the lovely chicken-hawk war pimps like Dick Cheney.

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 02:04:26   #
UncleJesse Loc: Hazzard Co, GA
 
Thanks for the opinion Brian Devon but are you sure that the US is only interest is, "Kiev's role in gas and oil pipeline business"?

You know, the US doesn't import or export any fuel there.

If you want an explanation of what future cash cow is being lost by Russia, take a look at this article from January. Ukraine is going to be energy independent and chose the Netherlands, not a US company nor a Russian government authoritarian façade business as the one to share in the profits.

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/01/24/ukraine-set-to-sign-us10b-shale-gas-deal-with-shell/?__lsa=5a9f-ef38

But I'm sure that deal will be re-examined after the Ukraine e******ns. There's a tell that Yanucovych got gifts from it.

Ukraine energy independence hurts the Russian economy.

That's why it is so important for Russia to control the politics there but is also why Ukrainians died protesting Yanucovich.

I noticed you brought up the example of Iraq and Vietnam which is fine if the US was making a case for sending troops to war. Rather, this is simply a case where the US can and should use influence and power to let Ukraine be self determinant and independent of the political authority from Russia. Sort of like how France helped the American colonies sever ties with England whose had a financial incentive to keep the colonies in their control.

Brian Devon wrote:
The Ukraine is like Iraq. The only reason the U.S. has the slightest interest is Kiev's role in the gas and oil pipeline business.

The Ukraine and Russia have a long complicated relationship going back 800 years. In the 1990s they got a divorce after the USSR imploded. It remains a messy divorce with fighting over child custody (the Crimea). It is strictly none of our business.

How would the U.S. feel if Moscow joined Mexican maneuvers along our southern border?

There will always be border disputes on planet earth. Since WWII, our sticking our long noses in these types of disputes has resulted in disaster.

Exhibit A: Vietnam

The only Americans who gain from these fiascos are the folks who have huge defense contractor portfolios......the lovely chicken-hawk war pimps like Dick Cheney.
The Ukraine is like Iraq. The only reason the U.S.... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Apr 7, 2014 02:20:06   #
Brian Devon
 
UncleJesse wrote:
Thanks for the opinion Brian Devon but are you sure that the US is only interest is, "Kiev's role in gas and oil pipeline business"?

You know, the US doesn't import or export any fuel there.

If you want an explanation of what future cash cow is being lost by Russia, take a look at this article from January. Ukraine is going to be energy independent and chose the Netherlands, not a US company nor a Russian government authoritarian façade business as the one to share in the profits.

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/01/24/ukraine-set-to-sign-us10b-shale-gas-deal-with-shell/?__lsa=5a9f-ef38

But I'm sure that deal will be re-examined after the Ukraine e******ns. There's a tell that Yanucovych got gifts from it.

Ukraine energy independence hurts the Russian economy.

That's why it is so important for Russia to control the politics there but is also why Ukrainians died protesting Yanucovich.

I noticed you brought up the example of Iraq and Vietnam which is fine if the US was making a case for sending troops to war. Rather, this is simply a case where the US can and should use influence and power to let Ukraine be self determinant and independent of the political authority from Russia. Sort of like how France helped the American colonies sever ties with England whose had a financial incentive to keep the colonies in their control.
Thanks for the opinion Brian Devon but are you sur... (show quote)




The U.S. is hardly above greasing the f****l f**l skids for our NATO allies. Let Russia and the Ukraine figure this one out for themselves. As far as the comparison with France, England, and the colonies, the Black Sea issues are not equivalent. France and England were not nuclear powers armed to the teeth with thousands of thermonuclear weapons. We don't need another Cuban missile crisis. Its already bad enough that both the U.S. and Russia have ICBMs, both land and submarine based, that are capable of ending all human life in both countries. On this one, it is time to put away a "Monroe Doctrine for Europe" playbook and borrow a page from the Swiss.

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Apr 7, 2014 02:36:12   #
UncleJesse Loc: Hazzard Co, GA
 
I understand you have plenty of contemporary history to draw upon to be concerned about. This is a case where Ukraine will need some negotiation cards. By themselves, they don't stand a chance against Russian hard handed negotiation tactics. If Ukraine stands a chance of becoming energy independent - - they can, they have the 3rd largest untapped shale reserves in Europe - - they will need help at the negotiation table.

Brian Devon wrote:
The U.S. is hardly above greasing the f****l f**l skids for our NATO allies. Let Russia and the Ukraine figure this one out for themselves. As far as the comparison with France, England, and the colonies, the Black Sea issues are not equivalent. France and England were not nuclear powers armed to the teeth with thousands of thermonuclear weapons. We don't need another Cuban missile crisis. Its already bad enough that both the U.S. and Russia have ICBMs, both land and submarine based, that are capable of ending all human life in both countries. On this one, it is time to put away a "Monroe Doctrine for Europe" playbook and borrow a page from the Swiss.
The U.S. is hardly above greasing the f****l f**l ... (show quote)

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 04:26:55   #
lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas
 
UncleJesse wrote:
I understand you have plenty of contemporary history to draw upon to be concerned about. This is a case where Ukraine will need some negotiation cards. By themselves, they don't stand a chance against Russian hard handed negotiation tactics. If Ukraine stands a chance of becoming energy independent - - they can, they have the 3rd largest untapped shale reserves in Europe - - they will need help at the negotiation table.


Which our rich compatriots will happily supply - for a price. That's the only reason we involved ourselves, after all, to get our guys onto the negotiating team. There are NO strategic or diplomatic concerns for the USA, there ARE, however, many lucrative opportunities for the folk who own the Gov.

We can expect many more examples of the rich directing foreign policy to enable themselves to get richer. They've been doing it for centuries, but now, thanks to the Supreme Court, they won't have to sneak to do it. Wouldn't it have been easier to go to war in Iraq because " they said so", instead of all the BS about WMD's? Things will be more clear from now on, about who is running the country. Right now, they still have us thinking that it makes a difference who is President or what party has majority. Finally, we'll be able to stop all that angst.

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 08:13:13   #
bmac32 Loc: West Florida
 
Pretty t***h as well. Obama pretty much turned his back and let Putin do as he wished. The left screams 'we're not the police of the world' and the right agrees so then does someone stop Putin?


UncleJesse wrote:
Here's a well written article with my favorite part quoted below. It is a refreshing t***h against all the Russian propaganda lies being sold by uninformed readers.

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20140407/cleisure/cleisure5.html

Reply
 
 
Apr 7, 2014 08:33:20   #
irving Loc: Carmel NY
 
Hi Jesse
( I have a brother named Jesse.)
How can you be so worried about Russia when your own country is turning into a socialist state. Liberals will use anything to distract you from what they're doing. The enemy is in our house, we need to root them out.

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 10:35:07   #
Patty
 
http://operation-gladio.net/operation-gladio
Brian Devon wrote:
The U.S. is hardly above greasing the f****l f**l skids for our NATO allies. Let Russia and the Ukraine figure this one out for themselves. As far as the comparison with France, England, and the colonies, the Black Sea issues are not equivalent. France and England were not nuclear powers armed to the teeth with thousands of thermonuclear weapons. We don't need another Cuban missile crisis. Its already bad enough that both the U.S. and Russia have ICBMs, both land and submarine based, that are capable of ending all human life in both countries. On this one, it is time to put away a "Monroe Doctrine for Europe" playbook and borrow a page from the Swiss.
The U.S. is hardly above greasing the f****l f**l ... (show quote)

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 10:39:10   #
Patty
 
97% in Crimea disagreed and wanted to go back to Russia. Now the whole East Ukraine doesn't want to give their country to the IMF If you really want to see what is going on there here is a live stream. More areas are falling away from Ukraine and returning to Russia. Russia doesn't want or need to invade Ukraine as you have been sold. All they have to do is sit back and let the whole thing come begging them to take them back.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-07/crimea-20-donetsk-activists-declare-kiev-independence-announce-peoples-republic-done

bmac32 wrote:
Pretty t***h as well. Obama pretty much turned his back and let Putin do as he wished. The left screams 'we're not the police of the world' and the right agrees so then does someone stop Putin?

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 11:00:41   #
Brian Devon
 
UncleJesse wrote:
I understand you have plenty of contemporary history to draw upon to be concerned about. This is a case where Ukraine will need some negotiation cards. By themselves, they don't stand a chance against Russian hard handed negotiation tactics. If Ukraine stands a chance of becoming energy independent - - they can, they have the 3rd largest untapped shale reserves in Europe - - they will need help at the negotiation table.








***
Shale??? As in fracking and polluted drinking water? Oh joy.......throw in the legacy of Chernobyl and you have a virtual Slavic paradise.

I think the majority of U.S. citizens have no interest in the U.S. being the world's border police, whether its boots on the ground, nuclear missiles, or even at the negotiating table.

Reply
 
 
Apr 7, 2014 11:02:47   #
UncleJesse Loc: Hazzard Co, GA
 
There's a ring of t***h in what you wrote and yet, it looks like Russia has began instigating grabbing Eastern Ukraine where the shale gas reserves are located. You're right about the rich directing the foreign policy but you have the wrong country. It is Russia directing politics for lucrative opportunities, sending operatives across the border to declare Russian allegiance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/kiev-says-russia-provokes-trouble-in-eastern-ukraine-just-as-in-crimea/2014/04/07/8242ee71-465b-4113-91be-93f8bfa67ff1_story.html

lpnmajor wrote:
Which our rich compatriots will happily supply - for a price. That's the only reason we involved ourselves, after all, to get our guys onto the negotiating team. There are NO strategic or diplomatic concerns for the USA, there ARE, however, many lucrative opportunities for the folk who own the Gov.

We can expect many more examples of the rich directing foreign policy to enable themselves to get richer. They've been doing it for centuries, but now, thanks to the Supreme Court, they won't have to sneak to do it. Wouldn't it have been easier to go to war in Iraq because " they said so", instead of all the BS about WMD's? Things will be more clear from now on, about who is running the country. Right now, they still have us thinking that it makes a difference who is President or what party has majority. Finally, we'll be able to stop all that angst.
Which our rich compatriots will happily supply - f... (show quote)

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 11:14:20   #
Patty
 
The whole thing is set up to benefit US oil companies and will only strip Ukraine of its natural resources. It will benefit the people as much as Shell, Chevron and Exxon Mobil have benefited us.
" Ukraine signed a $10 billion shale gas deal with US energy giant Chevron "that the ex-Soviet nation hopes could end its energy dependence on Russia by 2020." The agreement would allow "Chevron to explore the Olesky deposit in western Ukraine that Kiev estimates can hold 2.98 trillion cubic meters of gas." Similar deals had been struck already with Shell and ExxonMobil."
They do not like sharing with their host countries and don't think should have to. First thing that needs done is they should be charged for the energy that they pull out of the ground since it took millions of years to produce. They should not be getting away with only paying what it takes to extract the oil froom the ground. It is illogical.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 11:22:25   #
UncleJesse Loc: Hazzard Co, GA
 
One of the points of having an alliance is to lend a hand whether that means diplomacy, loans or a promise to pitch-in to defend boarders like Kuwait.

Brian Devon wrote:
***
Shale??? As in fracking and polluted drinking water? Oh joy.......throw in the legacy of Chernobyl and you have a virtual Slavic paradise.

I think the majority of U.S. citizens have no interest in the U.S. being the world's border police, whether its boots on the ground, nuclear missiles, or even at the negotiating table.

Reply
Apr 7, 2014 11:26:45   #
UncleJesse Loc: Hazzard Co, GA
 
If that's what Ukraine wants to do, who are we to interfere? We should respect their decisions and allow them to proceed unabated without these threats from Russia to persuade them into keeping the Russian pipelines flowing.

Patty wrote:
The whole thing is set up to benefit US oil companies and will only strip Ukraine of its natural resources. It will benefit the people as much as Shell, Chevron and Exxon Mobil have benefited us.
" Ukraine signed a $10 billion shale gas deal with US energy giant Chevron "that the ex-Soviet nation hopes could end its energy dependence on Russia by 2020." The agreement would allow "Chevron to explore the Olesky deposit in western Ukraine that Kiev estimates can hold 2.98 trillion cubic meters of gas." Similar deals had been struck already with Shell and ExxonMobil."
They do not like sharing with their host countries and don't think should have to. First thing that needs done is they should be charged for the energy that they pull out of the ground since it took millions of years to produce. They should not be getting away with only paying what it takes to extract the oil froom the ground. It is illogical.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines
The whole thing is set up to benefit US oil compan... (show quote)

Reply
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