Glaucon

Sensible, I agree. What would you suggest to improve this situation?

son of witless

Okay sir, I am ready to give the benefit of the doubt. I will bend over backwards to accommodate you. You just said two contradictory things. I will let you explain to me what I am missing.

Previously you said, " I think “living off the sweat and toil of others” is called capitalism. " Now I take that as someone bashing capitalism. I take that as someone who supports the anti capitalism of Obama and all of the current Democrats holding office. Or crony capitalism-patronage of Obama and his merry band of marxists.

Then you say the opposite, " I an a very strong supporter of capitalism. It has worked well for me and, if I had to do it over again, I could do it as easily as I did the first time. I love capitalism. "

Glaucon

[quote=son of witless]Okay sir, I am ready to give the benefit of the doubt. I will bend over backwards to accommodate you. You just said two contradictory things. I will let you explain to me what I am missing.

Previously you said, " I think “living off the sweat and toil of others” is called capitalism. " Now I take that as someone bashing capitalism. I take that as someone who supports the anti capitalism of Obama and all of the current Democrats holding office. Or crony capitalism-patronage of Obama and his merry band of marxists.



I did say that capitalism can be considered living off the sweat and toil of others and I thought most people understood that. I won’t go into a lengthy explanation of what I mean by that, but one example might be about owning stocks and mutual funds from which one receives dividends and capital gains income. The stock owner doesn’t “sweat and toil” But someone has to sweat and toil in order to produce goods and services from which the stock owner receives his periodic check. I own stocks, I receive dividends and capital gains, and the income I receive goes directly to my bank account and I do not sweat and toil. Why in the world would I be anti capitalist?

If you believe Obama is anti capitalist, you are apparently getting some very different information than I am. Obama, Clinton, Republicans, Tea Partiers, Democrats, and Bush are all very strong supporters of Capitalism. None of these people or groups is Marxist in any way I know of. Marxism was a Utopian system that sounded great and was a disaster for both the plutocrats and the sweaters and toilers.

son of witless

[quote=Glaucon]

I have a faint hope for you after all. I am glad you consider yourself a capitalist. But it is not like you do not do anything for your money. You put your money at risk in the big bad market place. Things go wrong. When things go right you make money. Why is that a bad thing?

To hear President Obama it is horrible. Don't forget that man-woman out there sweating and toiling so that you can sit back and collect your dividends, only has a job because you provided an opportunity for him-her. You probably even have money in evil oil companies. The men and women making good money in the oil fields thank you from the bottom of their paychecks. There would be even more of them raising kids and putting them through college if not for a certain green marxist occupying the White House.

Glaucon

I don't follow most of your comment, but your last sentence is a balance between laughable and pathetic. Obama a Marxist? Nonsense. WTF is a "green Marxist"

I have stock in three oil companies and the dividends they pay are the same as the dividends as the rest. Trust me, stocks go up and stocks go down, but in the long term you can depend on . I the long run, they pay great dividends and have great capital gains. Another great capitalist thing is you can avoid paying any tax on appreciation of the stocks by willing them to you kids.

son of witless

Your practical side of being a savvy investor is at odds with your political side. I know a little about the stock market, but I'm not wealthy enough to worry about saving capital gains taxes by giving my stocks to my kids, not that they couldn't use it.

I argue that Obama has had the opposite effect on people than his advertized plan. You and I have done well stock market wise under Obama, while my kids have not. Young adults are being starved of opportunity. This was predictable. Obama uses Western Europe for his economic model. Western Europe screws it's young to protect it's fat old people.

Glaucon

I can agree with two of your point: Our middle class and poor young people are being screwed and will continue to be screwed unless there are some major changes that are highly unlikely to occur. Also, Obama has not come through on some crucial elements of his "advertised plan." I don't see how or who would have predicted how it is playing out.

I don't see how or that Obama has used Western Europe for an economic model. Our presidents don't have much power to choose economic models. Obama is doing much the same with the economy as Bush and Clinton did.

You didn't answer my question, what does Marxism have to do with Obama? "Green Marxism?"

son of witless

A Green Marxist is someone who combines the big government command structure of the Marxist system with the totally destructive elements of the environmental movement. Obama is not quite as stupid as he lets on. He knows that the green looney toons agenda is a disaster for the economy. However, these same nuts are very powerful in his party. So he gives them just enough to keep the money flowing into his political coffers, while trying to limit the damage. They are also useful in blackmailing industry into paying up because they are a credible threat.

Obama is using Western Europe as his model. Obamacare is a center piece, but it is also built around redistribution of wealth and protecting the entrenched interests of older workers.

This in against the well being of young adults. In places like Spain, Italy, and Portugal there is no opportunity for the young to get well paying jobs and start their own families. That is why they either leave their countries or live with their parents until at least 35 years old. That is also why these countries are imploding. Not enough young to balance the old.

Obama has done the same here. Why do you think it is necessary to have kids on their Parents medical insurance until 26 or why 99 weeks of unemployment was also.

Tell me, in your young working life would either of these have been thought of or needed?

Glaucon

I don’t consider myself a capitalist in the sense of championing totally unregulated capitalism. Adam Smith made it clear he saw major flaws in capitalism. One flaw is that in unregulated capitalism, all wealth would flow to the already very wealthy and result our nation’s wealth and our government gradually being owned by the very few at the top, a plutocracy. I think all of us can understand that the more wealth we have the easier it is to get more wealth. Smith also saw a flaw in capitalism that it has booms and busts that are not all that much of a problem for the very wealthy, but for the family that lives from paycheck to paycheck, it can be a disaster.
Some people seem to think capitalism is a religion rather than a man made, naturally evolved economic system that has some very good things about it and some very bad things and many things in between. Treating it as a religion and believing in it on faith and without reason is very dangerous and dysfunctional. Once we label ourselves as something –capitalist- we limit our thinking and our actions.
When we label ourselves and others, we cease to think and that is one of the reasons discussions such as this site allows are limited by labels such as liberal, conservative, libertarian, socialist, Marxist. When people ask me if I am a liberal or a conservative, I really don’t know what to say. I don’t know anyone, not one, that is consistently conservative or liberal. We are all conservative about some issues at some times and liberal about some issues at some times. Labeling ourselves and others gives us the feeling we understand ourselves and others by attaching a label. However, it is a lazy, non thinking habit that causes us to bypass thinking. When we seek our own personal comfort and security by labeling things and assuming that means understanding them, we end up dumb.

son of witless

Will you at least admit that it is possible to over regulate an economy? During Jimmy Carter he tried to regulate us out of the energy crisis. Reagan came in and did the opposite. Which one do you remember worked better?

Oh and I just heard about a new initiative from our green President. His EPA, not content to k**l off the American Coal Industry has set it's sites on destroying American farmers in the Dairy and Beef Industries. You can't make stupidity like this up. They now want to regulate cattle flatulence.

She Wolf Loc: Currently Georgia

I agree. I have learned a great deal on this site. It really doesn't bother me when people are hostile as I can be quite hostel myself on occasion.

I prefer to think people are just passionate in their beliefs. I don't take it personal. If a person can show me where I am wrong, I appreciate it. No one knows everything.

I am very bias in some areas. I try not to be but honestly I know I am.

Glaucon

Witless,

You seem to have a difficult time thinking in non absolute terms. I think it is not only possible, but only rational to be able to be a strong supporter of capitalism and demand that it be regulated as necessary. Capitalism can be handicapped by over regulation and it can destroy democracy when totally unregulated. I am for capitalism, but against over or under regulation.

Glaucon

Will you at least admit that it is possible to over regulate an economy? During Jimmy Carter he tried to regulate us out of the energy crisis. Reagan came in and did the opposite. Which one do you remember worked better?

Oh and I just heard about a new initiative from our green President. His EPA, not content to k**l off the American Coal Industry has set it's sites on destroying American farmers in the Dairy and Beef Industries. You can't make stupidity like this up. They now want to regulate cattle flatulence.

I say things or I don’t “admit” things. As I have said to you before, I don’t see political discussion as a game that someone loses and someone wins. I can handle being wrong and I often am wrong.
Obama is not trying to k**l off America’s coal industry. However, coal is k*****g off human beings and I hope our government is concerned about that. You say our government is trying to regulate cattle flatulence and you believe that? Amazing.

son of witless

Glaucon,

You realize that I will jump on things like this. How is coal k*****g off human beings?

Glaucon

In games, we jump on things we think will help us win. In rational political discussions, we ask questions to help us understand.

There are many ways coal is causing death and you can find much quality information with a simple web search. If you can’t find lots of information, let me know and I will do a search for you. If you don’t understand it , I will explain it to you.