1 Timothy 3:15: Sola Scriptura or Visible Church Authority ?
Dec 2, 2017 22:52:35 #
08/30/2017 1 Timothy 3:15: Sola Scriptura or Visible Church Authority?
Dave Armstrong
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2017/08/1-timothy-315-sola-scriptura-visible-church-authority.html
“. . . the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (RSV)
Some Protestants have argued that “church” here means simply all believers, and/or that “truth” in 1 Timothy 3:15 refers to the gospel only, not all spiritual matters.
This is not at all obvious, and I see nothing in the immediate context that proves it beyond any doubt.
The gospel is certainly a very important part of Christian truth, but not the sum and total of it.
We see this in the many instances of truth (Gk., aletheia and cognates) in the New Testament.
For example, John 16:13: “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”
Jesus was speaking to the disciples, who were obviously believers, who understood (and had received) the gospel.
Therefore, the “truth” referred to must include more than the gospel itself.
In fact, the later part of the same verse proves this: “He will declare to you the things that are to come.”
Many other counter-examples could be given.
In Romans 1:18 Paul refers to wicked men who “suppress the truth.”
This truth, in context, goes beyond simply the gospel, to “what can be known about God” (1:19): His “eternal power and deity.”
God’s attributes are not the gospel (cf. 1:25: “the truth about God”).
The larger meaning in many places can be seen in any linguistic reference work, such as Vine’s Expository Dictionary, Kittel, Robertson, Vincent, Thayer, or other such aids.
Jesus says “I am the truth” (Jn 14:6).
Obviously, He didn’t mean, “I am the gospel.”
Granted, “church” has a wide latitude of meaning in the New Testament.
Whether it means “all believers” in 1 Timothy 3:15 or a more strict meaning of an organization with bishops, etc. (or both) may be disputed by well-meaning exegetes in good faith, with honestly held differences.
The difficulty remains, however, in either scenario, of how to interpret being the “pillar and bulwark” of truth if “church” is defined in a less hierarchical or institutional or “visible” way.
In what sense does the doctrinal chaos and inability to unify on so many doctrines in Protestantism constitute supporting (the one) “truth”?
How do we determine the truths (indeed, the one “truth”) of the Christian faith?
How do we wade through all of the interminable Protestant internal disagreements?
In what fashion do they possess “authority” to present to the unbelieving world the one truth, given their own inability to agree on it?
How can they claim to be one, as Jesus and the Father were one?
At least our view (agree or disagree) is coherent, self-consistent, and sensible, whereas Protestantism (if we are talking about Protestantism as the alleged purveyor of “one truth” and the “pillar and support” of it) is virtually meaningless and cannot be defended except in the vaguest generalities.
The Bible provides a crystal-clear example of the Church exercising its infallible authority:
The council of Jerusalem, that made a binding pronouncement, guided by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28-29), which was binding upon the faithful, and proclaimed as such by Paul himself, in his missionary journeys (16:4).
The Church isn’t the “source” of Christian truth, if by that one means “origin.”
That is clearly God.
The Church preserves this truth with the direct aid of God the Holy Spirit.
One doesn’t think that a “preserver” of something was the origin of that same thing.
That would be as foolish as saying that the salt used to preserve meat (in pre-refrigerator times) created the meat (salt would then equal a bull or a pig).
It’s absurd.
A guard or guardian doesn’t originate the things he guards (be it a child or a bicycle or a bank).
Gerhard Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (abridged edition, translated and edited by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985), in its commentary on stylos (pillar) on p. 1097 states, discussing 1 Timothy 3:15 in particular:
The cultic community is the house of God and as such it is the pillar and ground of the truth.
Likewise, the same work comments on hedraioma (bulwark) as used in our passage, on p. 200:
The church is here a solid defense against the confusion of myths, offering individual faith and thought a sure ground with its confession (v. 16).
NIV uses the word “foundation.”
Other translations use similar terminology:
KJV / NKJV / ASV pillar and ground
Phillips pillar and the foundation
Williams / Moffatt pillar and foundation
Barclay pillar and buttress
CEV strong foundation of truth
Amplified pillar and stay — the prop and support — of the Truth
As for infallibility, that follows straightforwardly from what we see in the Jerusalem council.
The Holy Spirit guided the decision; therefore it was infallible, and regarded as such by everyone. It was binding.
Catholics see something like the Jerusalem Council as a concrete application of the notion under consideration in 1 Timothy 3:15.
I don’t deny that there is a sense of the Mystical Church.
Catholics believe that, too (and I’ve written about it), but we don’t deny the visible, institutional, historically continuous Church.
That’s where Protestants go astray.
Some try to maintain the visible church in some sense (Calvin tried).
But then it is a matter of implausible definition, as if some Protestant denomination can fit the biblical specifications for what “Church” in this visible sense means.
His problems continue to be: what is this visible Church?
What does it teach?
How is it the pillar and ground of truth, as Holy Scripture describes it?
Protestants cannot do this, pure and simple.
Their ecclesiology and rule of faith do not logically permit it.
Even if we grant this invisible church, the problem remains of identifying the doctrines of this ethereal, nebulous, mysterious entity.
And until the Protestant can do that, it is folly and a pipe dream to pretend it is a foundation or support of “truth.”
It is playing games with reality and logic and the Bible.
The same Paul who gave us 1 Timothy 3:15 also participated in the Jerusalem Council and promulgated its binding and infallible decrees.
So obviously he does not believe only in an invisible church or remnant, by his own actions.
Dave Armstrong
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2017/08/1-timothy-315-sola-scriptura-visible-church-authority.html
“. . . the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (RSV)
Some Protestants have argued that “church” here means simply all believers, and/or that “truth” in 1 Timothy 3:15 refers to the gospel only, not all spiritual matters.
This is not at all obvious, and I see nothing in the immediate context that proves it beyond any doubt.
The gospel is certainly a very important part of Christian truth, but not the sum and total of it.
We see this in the many instances of truth (Gk., aletheia and cognates) in the New Testament.
For example, John 16:13: “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”
Jesus was speaking to the disciples, who were obviously believers, who understood (and had received) the gospel.
Therefore, the “truth” referred to must include more than the gospel itself.
In fact, the later part of the same verse proves this: “He will declare to you the things that are to come.”
Many other counter-examples could be given.
In Romans 1:18 Paul refers to wicked men who “suppress the truth.”
This truth, in context, goes beyond simply the gospel, to “what can be known about God” (1:19): His “eternal power and deity.”
God’s attributes are not the gospel (cf. 1:25: “the truth about God”).
The larger meaning in many places can be seen in any linguistic reference work, such as Vine’s Expository Dictionary, Kittel, Robertson, Vincent, Thayer, or other such aids.
Jesus says “I am the truth” (Jn 14:6).
Obviously, He didn’t mean, “I am the gospel.”
Granted, “church” has a wide latitude of meaning in the New Testament.
Whether it means “all believers” in 1 Timothy 3:15 or a more strict meaning of an organization with bishops, etc. (or both) may be disputed by well-meaning exegetes in good faith, with honestly held differences.
The difficulty remains, however, in either scenario, of how to interpret being the “pillar and bulwark” of truth if “church” is defined in a less hierarchical or institutional or “visible” way.
In what sense does the doctrinal chaos and inability to unify on so many doctrines in Protestantism constitute supporting (the one) “truth”?
How do we determine the truths (indeed, the one “truth”) of the Christian faith?
How do we wade through all of the interminable Protestant internal disagreements?
In what fashion do they possess “authority” to present to the unbelieving world the one truth, given their own inability to agree on it?
How can they claim to be one, as Jesus and the Father were one?
At least our view (agree or disagree) is coherent, self-consistent, and sensible, whereas Protestantism (if we are talking about Protestantism as the alleged purveyor of “one truth” and the “pillar and support” of it) is virtually meaningless and cannot be defended except in the vaguest generalities.
The Bible provides a crystal-clear example of the Church exercising its infallible authority:
The council of Jerusalem, that made a binding pronouncement, guided by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28-29), which was binding upon the faithful, and proclaimed as such by Paul himself, in his missionary journeys (16:4).
The Church isn’t the “source” of Christian truth, if by that one means “origin.”
That is clearly God.
The Church preserves this truth with the direct aid of God the Holy Spirit.
One doesn’t think that a “preserver” of something was the origin of that same thing.
That would be as foolish as saying that the salt used to preserve meat (in pre-refrigerator times) created the meat (salt would then equal a bull or a pig).
It’s absurd.
A guard or guardian doesn’t originate the things he guards (be it a child or a bicycle or a bank).
Gerhard Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (abridged edition, translated and edited by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985), in its commentary on stylos (pillar) on p. 1097 states, discussing 1 Timothy 3:15 in particular:
The cultic community is the house of God and as such it is the pillar and ground of the truth.
Likewise, the same work comments on hedraioma (bulwark) as used in our passage, on p. 200:
The church is here a solid defense against the confusion of myths, offering individual faith and thought a sure ground with its confession (v. 16).
NIV uses the word “foundation.”
Other translations use similar terminology:
KJV / NKJV / ASV pillar and ground
Phillips pillar and the foundation
Williams / Moffatt pillar and foundation
Barclay pillar and buttress
CEV strong foundation of truth
Amplified pillar and stay — the prop and support — of the Truth
As for infallibility, that follows straightforwardly from what we see in the Jerusalem council.
The Holy Spirit guided the decision; therefore it was infallible, and regarded as such by everyone. It was binding.
Catholics see something like the Jerusalem Council as a concrete application of the notion under consideration in 1 Timothy 3:15.
I don’t deny that there is a sense of the Mystical Church.
Catholics believe that, too (and I’ve written about it), but we don’t deny the visible, institutional, historically continuous Church.
That’s where Protestants go astray.
Some try to maintain the visible church in some sense (Calvin tried).
But then it is a matter of implausible definition, as if some Protestant denomination can fit the biblical specifications for what “Church” in this visible sense means.
His problems continue to be: what is this visible Church?
What does it teach?
How is it the pillar and ground of truth, as Holy Scripture describes it?
Protestants cannot do this, pure and simple.
Their ecclesiology and rule of faith do not logically permit it.
Even if we grant this invisible church, the problem remains of identifying the doctrines of this ethereal, nebulous, mysterious entity.
And until the Protestant can do that, it is folly and a pipe dream to pretend it is a foundation or support of “truth.”
It is playing games with reality and logic and the Bible.
The same Paul who gave us 1 Timothy 3:15 also participated in the Jerusalem Council and promulgated its binding and infallible decrees.
So obviously he does not believe only in an invisible church or remnant, by his own actions.
Dec 3, 2017 01:14:44 #
Doc110 wrote:
08/30/2017 1 Timothy 3:15: Sola Scriptura or Visib... (show quote)
First of all, it would be one thing to use 1 Timothy 3:15 to generically claim “the church” as a source of authority or truth on earth. Catholic apologists, however, frequently point to this passage and extract concepts such as an inerrant magisterium, an infallible Pope, and so forth. The scope of the verse in no way supports that kind of overreach. This is particularly true in light of what Paul and the rest of the New Testament says about the church and truth.
First Timothy 3:15 is the end of Paul’s description of proper conduct for church members, including leaders. He nowhere mentions a unique power of these leaders to make doctrinal or interpretive decisions. Nor does he declare members of the body incapable of making those interpretations themselves. In fact, in verse 14 Paul specifically says that his written words are what define proper conduct. This actually suggests the concept of sola scriptura; Paul is assigning authority to the written Word. He does not say, “The church will tell you what this letter means.”
At the start of the epistle, Paul explicitly tells Timothy to oppose those who teach unsound doctrine (1 Timothy 1:3–7, 18–19). He does not tell Timothy to oppose those who disagree with “the church” or with church leaders. This echoes other statements of Paul that indicate that the content of a belief is what matters, not the person who proclaims it (2 Corinthians 11:14; Galatians 1:6–8). Paul refers to those proclaiming the gospel as stewards of the truth, not the source of it (1 Corinthians 4:1; 9:17). Elsewhere, Paul explicitly says there is only one “true” foundation for our faith, which is Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11), so what he says in 1 Timothy 3:15 must be taken in that context.
It’s also short-sighted to use 1 Timothy 3:15 to support Catholicism, given the words that come directly before and after it. In 1 Timothy 3:1–13, Paul says that church leaders ought to be “the husband of one wife” and to have demonstrated control over their household and children. Yet Catholicism demands that priests be unmarried and celibate, a prohibition that Paul condemns a few verses later (1 Timothy 4:1–3). That’s hardly a ringing endorsement of Catholic doctrine.
How, then, should 1 Timothy 3:15 be interpreted? Judging by the context of 1 Timothy, as well as the rest of Scripture, certainly not that “the church” has an infallible grasp of truth. In this case, Paul seems to be saying that the ekklesia—the body of believers, “the church”—is the structure that holds up and holds forth the gospel to the world. For that reason, the conduct of the body and its selection of leaders are critically important.
This interpretation is strongly supported by Paul’s use of two Greek words, stulos and hedraioma, translated as “pillar” and “foundation.” Stulos means “pillar, column, prop, or support” and is found in the New Testament only here, in Revelation 3:12, and in Revelation 10:1. Hedraioma means “prop or support” and is found only in this verse. Both words come from Greek root words that imply something that stiffens, stabilizes, steadies, or holds. These are completely different words than what are used for other occurrences of “foundation” in English Bibles. For instance, Paul’s reference to Christ as our “foundation” in 1 Corinthians 3:11 uses the word themelios, which means “foundation of a building” or “initial and founding principles of an idea.”
So, in 1 Timothy 3:15 Paul is not referring to “the church” as the source of truth or the creator of truth. He’s saying “the church” is what holds up and holds firm the truth in the world. Again, this interpretation fits with Paul’s warnings not to be swayed by carnal philosophies (Colossians 2:8), false teachers (2 Timothy 4:3), or any person who changes the gospel (Galatians 1:8). Rather than fall prey to false doctrine, we’re to compare teachers to the Word of God (Acts 17:11; 1 Corinthians 4:6; 2 Timothy 3:16; Romans 15:4).
“The church,” that is, the entire population of Christian believers, bears the earthly responsibility of holding up the truth of the gospel. The ultimate basis of that truth is Christ, not the proclamations or infallibility of members of that body. Paul is calling on believers to care for the structure that “supports” or “props up” our message to the world. First Timothy 3:15 cannot be taken to mean that the church itself is the source or standard for truth.
Dec 3, 2017 14:10:48 #
Doc110 wrote:
08/30/2017 1 Timothy 3:15: Sola Scriptura or Visib... (show quote)
Sounds like to me that the Catholic's are the only ones that are going to heaven that is if they can get someone with enough money to get them prayed out of purgatory , and all of us Protestants are going to burn in Hell .
If the Catholic church is led by the Holy Spirit as mentioned in the above article there seems to be a huge problem with the clergy as they must not be listening to the Holy Spirit !
Disclaimer >>> I don't mean this to be taken as an insult just my observation !
Dec 4, 2017 03:18:14 #
4430,
Monitory Indulgences have stopped since the Council Of Trent 1563, so please get your facts correct. . . .
And how many individual cases of Protestant Holy Spirit are there ?
The Trinity is very clear on this subject.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirt,
Not 51,000 thousand individual Holy Spirits.
Insult taken . . .
Monitory Indulgences have stopped since the Council Of Trent 1563, so please get your facts correct. . . .
And how many individual cases of Protestant Holy Spirit are there ?
The Trinity is very clear on this subject.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirt,
Not 51,000 thousand individual Holy Spirits.
Insult taken . . .
4430 wrote:
br Sounds like to me that the Catholic's are the ... (show quote)
Dec 4, 2017 09:27:02 #
Doc110 wrote:
4430,
Monitory Indulgences have stopped since the Council Of Trent 1563, so please get your facts correct. . . .
And how many individual cases of Protestant Holy Spirit are there ?
The Trinity is very clear on this subject.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirt,
Not 51,000 thousand individual Holy Spirits.
Insult taken . . .
Monitory Indulgences have stopped since the Council Of Trent 1563, so please get your facts correct. . . .
And how many individual cases of Protestant Holy Spirit are there ?
The Trinity is very clear on this subject.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirt,
Not 51,000 thousand individual Holy Spirits.
Insult taken . . .
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit I agree with you whole heartily !
Haven't a clue about the 51,000 thousand individual Holy Spirits looks like you are the one that needs to get their facts straight !
Not been all that long ago I was told they still had to pay in order to get their loved ones out of purgatory !
Dec 4, 2017 10:59:37 #
Over 400 years ago, Not that long ago,
But Protestants have longggg memories . . .
The Catholic Church corrected Indulgences in the Council of Trent.
We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations
That there really are 33,000 denominations; Or whatever the number has escalated to today—Possibly 51,314 as of this writing. (For there is a formula to calculate these things.)
The scandal would be no less if there were two denominations, and no greater if there were two million. Any division in the body of Christ is a scandal.
To argue over how many is a red herring. It is an argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
The real point is St. Paul’s words in Ephesians 4:4–6:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
By “one body,” St. Paul means “one Church,” as is evident when you compare Ephesians 1:22-23a And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
And Colossians 1:18, 24.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Paul’s Labor for the Church
24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Protestants don’t need to answer to an Encyclopedia; they need to answer to St. Paul.
That is the only discussion worth having.
We make a mistake in allowing them to avoid the discussion by fixating upon the dubious number 33,000.
But Protestants have longggg memories . . .
The Catholic Church corrected Indulgences in the Council of Trent.
We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations
That there really are 33,000 denominations; Or whatever the number has escalated to today—Possibly 51,314 as of this writing. (For there is a formula to calculate these things.)
The scandal would be no less if there were two denominations, and no greater if there were two million. Any division in the body of Christ is a scandal.
To argue over how many is a red herring. It is an argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
The real point is St. Paul’s words in Ephesians 4:4–6:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
By “one body,” St. Paul means “one Church,” as is evident when you compare Ephesians 1:22-23a And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
And Colossians 1:18, 24.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Paul’s Labor for the Church
24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Protestants don’t need to answer to an Encyclopedia; they need to answer to St. Paul.
That is the only discussion worth having.
We make a mistake in allowing them to avoid the discussion by fixating upon the dubious number 33,000.
4430 wrote:
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit I agree with you whole heartily !
Haven't a clue about the 51,000 thousand individual Holy Spirits looks like you are the one that needs to get their facts straight !
Not been all that long ago I was told they still had to pay in order to get their loved ones out of purgatory !
Haven't a clue about the 51,000 thousand individual Holy Spirits looks like you are the one that needs to get their facts straight !
Not been all that long ago I was told they still had to pay in order to get their loved ones out of purgatory !
Dec 4, 2017 11:11:44 #
Still haven't answered my question about how you came up with the 51,000 individual Holy Spirits
You sound like the Scribes and Pharisees were at war with the early church that Paul fought against .
God warned the early believers not to have anything to do with pagans of such like turn away and yet your church has a lot of pagan ideas
You sound like the Scribes and Pharisees were at war with the early church that Paul fought against .
God warned the early believers not to have anything to do with pagans of such like turn away and yet your church has a lot of pagan ideas
Dec 4, 2017 15:28:07 #
4430,
I did answer your questions, but not to your apparent satisfaction.
Gave you the Article and URL Link,
Try reading it, or try doing a google search as to how many Christian denominations are there ?
You'll be surprised, some say 33,000 thousand, and 41,000 thousand ?
And Jesus's expressed wishes that we Christians are to remain as "One."
John 17:11
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
The Holy Bible is very clear, and Jesus's words are very clear, and not ambiguous.
I did answer your questions, but not to your apparent satisfaction.
Gave you the Article and URL Link,
Try reading it, or try doing a google search as to how many Christian denominations are there ?
You'll be surprised, some say 33,000 thousand, and 41,000 thousand ?
And Jesus's expressed wishes that we Christians are to remain as "One."
John 17:11
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
The Holy Bible is very clear, and Jesus's words are very clear, and not ambiguous.
4430 wrote:
Still haven't answered my question about how you came up with the 51,000 individual Holy Spirits
You sound like the Scribes and Pharisees were at war with the early church that Paul fought against .
God warned the early believers not to have anything to do with pagans of such like turn away and yet your church has a lot of pagan ideas
You sound like the Scribes and Pharisees were at war with the early church that Paul fought against .
God warned the early believers not to have anything to do with pagans of such like turn away and yet your church has a lot of pagan ideas
Dec 4, 2017 16:05:07 #
Doc110 wrote:
4430, br br I did answer your questions, but not... (show quote)
My question was where did you come up with the 51,0000 individual Holy Spirits ?
Then you come up with 33 to 41,000 Christian denominations still no answer and I think I've read all your post .
Problem is one can pick and choose certain scriptures to suit their ideas and everything you have posted has come down thru Catholic written word so of course you say that the Catholic is the only church that's what you've been taught .
When Jesus said I will build my church he wasn't talking about the visual church he was talking about the spiritual church .
Anyone that confesses and repents of their sin and accepts Jesus Christ and their Lord and Savoir and is baptized into Jesus death burial and resurrection is a member of Christ church .
Every time I go to a Catholic church with my Catholic friends Christ was still on the cross !
The mother Mary is worshiped as a God against a direct command from God who says thou shalt have no other Gods before me ( 1st Commandment )
Those that go to mass confesses their sins to a Priest who has absolutely no power what so ever to forgive their sins .
When we sin and know it we go directly to Jesus Christ and confess that sin to him as he and he along has that power to forgive that sin !
We don't have to go thru all these pagan rituals or have someone else intercede for us as our relationship is directly with him and no other !
Dec 4, 2017 16:58:04 #
4430 wrote:
My question was where did you come up with the 51,... (show quote)
Your theology is sound and biblical.
Dec 10, 2017 05:48:24 #
jack sequim wa, and 4430,
Crickets . . . Crickets . . . Crickets . . .
So far I haven't heard any challenges to my 21 questions that rejects, Protestant Evangelical Independent church's teaching and theology on, Sola Scriptura and Justification.
Your Theology premiss is-not sound and biblical. . . . ?
12/07/2017 Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura (Part 1 of 21)
Joel Peters
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/sola.htm
http://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-119691-1.html
Here are the Questions and the answers to the 21 questions, summary and foot note's.
There are 21 questions and Reasons to Reject "Sola Scriptura," Misguided Protestant, Evangelical Independent theology.
Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura, Protestant, Evangelical Independent theology.
1. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not taught anywhere in the Bible
2. The Bible Indicates that In Addition to the Written Word, we are to accept Oral Tradition
3. The Bible Calls the Church and not the Bible the "Pillar and Ground of the Truth.”
4. Christ tells us to submit to the Authority of the Church
5. Scripture itself states that it is insufficient of itself as a teacher, but rather needs an interpreter.
6. The first Christians did not have a Bible
7. The Church produced the Bible not vice-versa
8. The idea of the Scripture's Authority existing apart from the authority of the Teacher Church is utterly foreign to the Early Church.
9. Heresiarchs and heretical movements based their doctrines on Scripture interpreted apart from Tradition and the Magisterium.
10. The Canon of the Bible was not settled until the 4th Century.
11. An "Extra-Biblical" Authority Identified the Canon of the Bible.
12. The Belief that Scripture is "Self-Authenticating" Does Not Hold Up under Examination
13. None of the Original Biblical Manuscripts is Extant.
14. The Biblical Manuscripts Contain Thousands of Variations
15. There Are Hundreds of Bible Versions.
16. The Bible Was Not Available to Individual Believers until the 15th Century.
17. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Did Not Exist Prior to the 14th Century.
18. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Produces Bad Fruit, Namely, Division and Disunity.
19. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Does Not Allow for a Final, Definitive Interpretation of any given Passage of Scripture.
20. The Protestant Bible Is Missing 7 Entire Books
21. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Had its Source in Luther’s Own Emotional Problems.
Summary
For all these reasons, then, it is evident that the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura is an utterly unbiblical, man-made, erroneous belief which must be wholly rejected.
Those who are genuine Christian believers and who have a commitment to the truths that Jesus Christ taught–
Even if those contradict one’s current religious system –
This should be compelled by the evidence to see the inherent flaws in this Protestant doctrine, flaws which are clearly obvious from Scripture, logic and history.
The fullness of religious truth, unmixed with error, is found only in the Catholic Church, the very Church which Jesus Christ Himself established.
According to the teaching of this Church, founded by Christ, Sola Scriptura is a distorted, truncated view of Christian authority.
Rather, the true rule of faith for the followers of Christ is this:
a. The immediate or direct rule of faith is the teaching of the Church;
b. The Church in turn takes her teaching from Divine Revelation –
c, Both the written Word, called Sacred Scripture, and the oral or unwritten Word, known as "Tradition," which together form the remote or indirect rule of faith.
d. Scripture and Tradition are the inspired sources of Christian doctrine, while the Church –
e. A historical and visible entity dating back to St. Peter and the Apostles in an uninterrupted succession –
f. Is the infallible teacher and interpreter of Christian doctrine.
g. It is only by accepting this complete Christian rule of faith that followers of Christ know they are adhering to all the things that He commanded His Apostles to teach (cf. Matt. 28:20).
It is only by accepting this complete Christian rule of faith that the followers of Christ are assured of possessing the whole truth which Christ taught, and nothing but that truth.
quote=jack sequim wa]Your theology is sound and biblical.[/quote]
Crickets . . . Crickets . . . Crickets . . .
So far I haven't heard any challenges to my 21 questions that rejects, Protestant Evangelical Independent church's teaching and theology on, Sola Scriptura and Justification.
Your Theology premiss is-not sound and biblical. . . . ?
12/07/2017 Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura (Part 1 of 21)
Joel Peters
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/sola.htm
http://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-119691-1.html
Here are the Questions and the answers to the 21 questions, summary and foot note's.
There are 21 questions and Reasons to Reject "Sola Scriptura," Misguided Protestant, Evangelical Independent theology.
Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura, Protestant, Evangelical Independent theology.
1. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not taught anywhere in the Bible
2. The Bible Indicates that In Addition to the Written Word, we are to accept Oral Tradition
3. The Bible Calls the Church and not the Bible the "Pillar and Ground of the Truth.”
4. Christ tells us to submit to the Authority of the Church
5. Scripture itself states that it is insufficient of itself as a teacher, but rather needs an interpreter.
6. The first Christians did not have a Bible
7. The Church produced the Bible not vice-versa
8. The idea of the Scripture's Authority existing apart from the authority of the Teacher Church is utterly foreign to the Early Church.
9. Heresiarchs and heretical movements based their doctrines on Scripture interpreted apart from Tradition and the Magisterium.
10. The Canon of the Bible was not settled until the 4th Century.
11. An "Extra-Biblical" Authority Identified the Canon of the Bible.
12. The Belief that Scripture is "Self-Authenticating" Does Not Hold Up under Examination
13. None of the Original Biblical Manuscripts is Extant.
14. The Biblical Manuscripts Contain Thousands of Variations
15. There Are Hundreds of Bible Versions.
16. The Bible Was Not Available to Individual Believers until the 15th Century.
17. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Did Not Exist Prior to the 14th Century.
18. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Produces Bad Fruit, Namely, Division and Disunity.
19. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Does Not Allow for a Final, Definitive Interpretation of any given Passage of Scripture.
20. The Protestant Bible Is Missing 7 Entire Books
21. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Had its Source in Luther’s Own Emotional Problems.
Summary
For all these reasons, then, it is evident that the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura is an utterly unbiblical, man-made, erroneous belief which must be wholly rejected.
Those who are genuine Christian believers and who have a commitment to the truths that Jesus Christ taught–
Even if those contradict one’s current religious system –
This should be compelled by the evidence to see the inherent flaws in this Protestant doctrine, flaws which are clearly obvious from Scripture, logic and history.
The fullness of religious truth, unmixed with error, is found only in the Catholic Church, the very Church which Jesus Christ Himself established.
According to the teaching of this Church, founded by Christ, Sola Scriptura is a distorted, truncated view of Christian authority.
Rather, the true rule of faith for the followers of Christ is this:
a. The immediate or direct rule of faith is the teaching of the Church;
b. The Church in turn takes her teaching from Divine Revelation –
c, Both the written Word, called Sacred Scripture, and the oral or unwritten Word, known as "Tradition," which together form the remote or indirect rule of faith.
d. Scripture and Tradition are the inspired sources of Christian doctrine, while the Church –
e. A historical and visible entity dating back to St. Peter and the Apostles in an uninterrupted succession –
f. Is the infallible teacher and interpreter of Christian doctrine.
g. It is only by accepting this complete Christian rule of faith that followers of Christ know they are adhering to all the things that He commanded His Apostles to teach (cf. Matt. 28:20).
It is only by accepting this complete Christian rule of faith that the followers of Christ are assured of possessing the whole truth which Christ taught, and nothing but that truth.
quote=jack sequim wa]Your theology is sound and biblical.[/quote]
Dec 10, 2017 12:42:15 #
Doc110 wrote:
[/quote] i jack sequim wa, and 4430, br br br Crickets ... (show quote)
You have proven to be dishonest.
Previously when I posted scriptures refuting your cultic teachings, you completely ignored, only to continue cutting and pasting repeatedly, with zero acknowledgement to anything I post.
I posted during other debates, not less than a dozen plus scriptures, a dozen plus replies.
The ear mark of an indoctrinated cult follower. The exact same behaviors are found when debating leftist facts, empirical evidence, documentations is ignored replaced with dishonest replies.
Cults are inspired by Satan himself, demonic powers leads the pope of the catholic church and leaders.
There are saved catholics within the church, not fully indoctrinated, mostly unsaved following the teachings of the liars of liars, and when the beast claims the antichrist is God, it is catholics among one's that will bow to him.
Matthew 24:24
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
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