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May 26, 2013 02:34:39   #
AuntiE wrote:
Executive Order issued on January 22, 2009 stating "Guantanamo Bay will be closed no later then one year from now." Go back and check all major news reports. In fact, he did it as a press piece.


...but since you brought it up, I decided to investigate. Here's the excerpt of the Executive Order related to what you are talking about.

White House (Jan 22, 2009) wrote:
Sec. 3. Closure of Detention Facilities at Guantánamo. The detention facilities at Guantánamo for individuals covered by this order shall be closed as soon as practicable, and no later than 1 year from the date of this order. If any individuals covered by this order remain in detention at Guantánamo at the time of closure of those detention facilities, they shall be returned to their home country, released, transferred to a third country, or transferred to another United States detention facility in a manner consistent with law and the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States.
Sec. 3. Closure of Detention Facilities at Gua... (show quote)


I still stand on principle that even here, there is no lie. This may seem like an intentionally narrow view, but it's my personal choice to spare certain words the misfortune of overuse. Like when my dad used to tell me that "hate" is a pretty strong word. It's the preservation of language for the purpose of precision.
That being said, it doesn't mean that I am insensitive to perhaps a trend, high on promises and low on follow through. That, if proven to be excessive (compared to other presidents I guess.) would in my mind decrease the value I place on his words when he's making his next promise.
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May 26, 2013 01:30:28   #
AuntiE wrote:
Executive Order issued on January 22, 2009 stating "Guantanamo Bay will be closed no later then one year from now." Go back and check all major news reports. In fact, he did it as a press piece.


Once again, this was a promise about the future (one year from now). Not a misrepresentation of present reality (which is what a lie is) such as saying we have absolute proof of WMD in Iraq, when we really don't.
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May 26, 2013 01:16:53   #
donc711 wrote:
Well staightUp Take a look at this. If this isn't a liberal DOJ then there just is no such thing in government. This from FOX NEWS considered by most as conservitive but I will concede that they miss the really impolrtant points we need to be watching a lot. But mostly they do a fair job.

Fox doesn't miss anything. They are very good at vending information that they know their audience wants to hear and they make a lot of money doing it.

donc711 wrote:

The following is copied from a news release fro FOX:
The naming of a journalist as a possible co-conspirator in a criminal case of leaked classified information is "chilling," Judge Andrew Napolitano says.

"The Supreme Court has ruled that when the government makes it difficult for you to do your job as a journalist by scaring off your sources or watching your every move, that’s called 'chilling.'" Napolitano said Monday on Fox News Channel. "Chilling is a constitutional phrase meaning the government hasn't directly silenced me, but it's made it more difficult for me to speak."

Latest: Is Benghazi a Cover Up? Is Obama at the Heart of It? Vote Here

Fox News correspondent James Rosen was named a possible co-conspirator in a Justice Department affidavit, it was learned Monday. His personal emails were searched as part of the investigation.

Napolitano, a former New Jersey Superior Court judge and analyst for Fox News Channel, said it was not a crime for a journalist to ask for, receive, or publish classified information. Nothing in the affadavit claims Rosen did anything more than what journalists are legally allowed to do as part of their jobs, he said.

"James, like all of us who are professionals in this business, have an absolute, constitutionally protected right to seek news of material interest to the public wherever that news may be," Napolitano said.

Though it is a crime for someone to give classified material to a person who does not have clearance to see it, it is not a crime for the person to receive it if that person is a journalist, he said. "It’s just terribly wrong to tell a federal judge that that journalist engaged in criminal activity, when we know from Supreme Court opinions from the Pentagon Papers to the present, James's activity is absolutely protected by the First Amendment."

Napolitano said that when a search warrant is issued, the person who is the target must be told. Rosen and Fox News did not learn of the subpoena of his emails until they read about it Monday in The Washington Post. The request for a search warrant was issued on May 28, 2010.

"The government has an obligation to report this to the target, James, and to anybody else involved – Fox, the computer server, whoever else might be involved – within a reasonable period of time," Napolitano said.

Latest: Is Benghazi a Cover Up? Is Obama at the Heart of It? Vote Here

Depending upon which statute the government used, when the information is in the hands of a third party, such as a computer server, investigators have an obligation to tell the subject of the probe beforehand so it can be challenged, he said. "They didn’t tell anybody."

Now that is liberalism at work and also very distrustive toward our country. We have never lived under such a travesty of justice in our entire history.
br The following is copied from a news release fr... (show quote)

Don't cheat yourself by obscuring the truth with partisan BS... What you are describing is not liberalism at work... it's politics at work. You don't remember Bush and his very conservative government, excluding all journalists from covering the war except for "embedded" journalists?

There isn't anything going on today that wasn't already going on during the Bush administration.

donc711 wrote:

Only one other president tried this sort of thing and he was forced to resign or be impeached. Recall Nixon? Intrusive and atempted to set up a Nanny State. Don't know how old you are But I recall 1935 Germany and see the very same things happening with this administration as happpened during 1935 Germany. Go figure. That's why I might be considered ultra conservitive prehaps.


I guess one reason why I might be considered liberal is the same.. ...Because I saw the Bush administration systematically shutting down our open democracy, the same way the fascists did in Europe in the 1930's.

Naomi Wolf wrote a book during the Bush administration called the "End of America" in which she outlines 10 significant steps taken by 20th century fascists and associated each step to something the Bush administration was doing. I'll just sample the first four.

1. invoke a terrifying external enemy: Terrorism was elevated to the "biggest threat to America during the Bush Administration, they even created a color-coded alert system to scare the crap out of people. But the fact of the matter is terrorism does very little damage to American , even though . Fact is actual patterns of )
2. create secret prisons (Guantanamo and a whole network of similar prisons created by the Bush Administration that actually bypasses the Judicial Branch.. (so much for checks and balances in the government).
3, Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens. (Blackwater and a whole collection of similar private security companies are not limited by agreements such as the Geneva Convention or by Congressional oversight.
4, Set up an internal surveillance system. (the PATRIOT Act: struck off the books a wide range of laws protecting our civil rights, among them the telecommunications laws regarding the right to privacy and sure enough, it wasn't long before we started to see headlines like "Government Wiretapping of American Citizens" and "Bush Government Spying on Americans."

So, please excuse me for not jumping on the "oh, we just found out we're screwed" party. I've been awake long enough to have seen the power grabs and shadow governments in the previous administrations too.
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May 26, 2013 00:10:18   #
TheCracker wrote:
Does anyone know what the percentage of our black citizens voted for Obama. Probably because he is also black.

That is racism in itself!

I bet more white people voted against him (because he's black) than black people who voted for him (because he is black).
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May 26, 2013 00:04:47   #
zonkedout1 wrote:
You really have no idea how far reaching government regulation has gone into any aspect of our lives.

Oh, and you know this from two or three short remarks I made about neoliberalism. Well then, Sherlock's got nothing on you. LOL I bet you know what kind of toilet paper I buy too.

Just to be clear, I never said ANYTHING about how regulated business is or isn't. All I said was that the prevailing trend is to deregulate and that the inverse effect is a shrinking jurisdiction of the democratic process.

I'm not even here to say if it's wrong or right. I'm just making observations or in this case, acknowledging the observation made by the author of the book that the article in the OP is about.
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May 25, 2013 23:47:45   #
zonkedout1 wrote:
It feels good to be heard. Thank you. To your credit, the amount of time spent being contrary and uninformative is astounding. So, thank you. The part I liked most is when I said. "This is true." and You said, "No it isn't and you're dumb." It really turned me around.


I searched the thread... I never said "No it isn't and you're dumb." Not only that but YOU were the one who started the contrary crap when you said "business isn't deregulated".

As for being uninformative... I'm sorry but I can't help you understand the things I am saying if you're too busy being contrary.

Try talking to me when your recreational drugs wear off.
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May 25, 2013 23:43:10   #
CrazyHorse wrote:
Quid Pro Quo, straightup: Total unadultrated mental masturbation. "democratic legislation is undermined by that legislation's rapidly shrinking jurisdiction in a world of deregulated business." Legislation's rapidly shrinkling jurisdiction. Say what!!! I wonder if you have any concept of what "jurisdiction" is all about and where it comes from. Just askin.

Jurisdiction
1 : the power, right, or authority to interpret and apply the law
2a : the authority of a sovereign power to govern or legislate
2b : the power or right to exercise authority : control

Merriam-Webster seems to understand what I mean.
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May 25, 2013 23:31:34   #
zonkedout1 wrote:
Business isn't deregulated. Business is over regulated, just not smartly regulated.

I'm referring to a direction... the direction of neoliberalism, which is essentially to deregulate and whether or not YOU think business is over-regulated, the fact remains that deregulation HAS increased over the last 30 years.

zonkedout1 wrote:

The most important aspect of regulating a business, transparency of product made or service provided, is rarely a reality.

No offense, but you don't know what the most important aspect of regulating business is... it can be different from one case to another. So save that retarded lecture for the idiots.

zonkedout1 wrote:

But, height of stairs, handicap accessibility, light bulbs to be used. The truth is, honesty is couched away in Trade Secret law, and cost is driven up by ridiculous acronyms, OSHA, MSHA, EEOC, ERA, EPA, etc. The most important aspect of a free market is knowing what your getting.

Where do you get this crap from? The most important aspect of a free market? Are you f*cking kidding me? "Free market" is a symbolic reference to a market that is free from government policy. Any assumptions about it's advantages or disadvantages are subjective.

zonkedout1 wrote:

Apple doesn't want you to know that you don't own a song you buy, you're just leasing it.

Apple doesn't care if you know.

zonkedout1 wrote:

In fact ownership of data is becoming increasingly difficult in the tech universe, and we merely lease data packets. Monsanto throws people in jail for seed planting without license.
Possession is no longer 9/10 of the law in the data universe.

Do you realize the irony of what you just stated? You just presented two examples (Apple and Monsanto) where possession is the very basis of the problems you see. Monsanto can sue farmers for planting their seeds, because they OWN a patent on the design of the seed and then you say possession is no longer 9/10 of the law.

zonkedout1 wrote:

The stuff you are talking about isn't a consumer driven market place. It's an employee driven marketplace.

I don't think you actually know what I am talking about and I'm not so sure I know what you are talking about either.

zonkedout1 wrote:

Without giving people that own small businesses options, nobody wants to provide anything new or distinct.

Options?
Are you trying to parrot that idiotic assertion made by sad dullards that think innovation can only happen if it's profitable? How sad. How sad that so many people buy that crap. The truth is... innovation happens regardless... it's a creative process, much like art in the sense that financial incentive is irrelevant. The only significant impact that financial incentive DOES present is the opportunity for non-innovative simpletons to commoditize the innovation so they can "own" it.

zonkedout1 wrote:

The big guys are all competing for existing marketshares and not creating anything new. Why? All the bullshit that goes on w/ starting a business in an atmosphere of government oversight.

That's 95% BS. The reason why they aren't creating anything new is because they can make more money selling the same old crap. I've started three businesses in my day and it really isn't that difficult.

It cracks me up that so many people whine and cry about how "hard" it is to start a business. Look, if you can't start a business in today's climate, even with all the government oversight, then you would probably fail anyway.
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May 25, 2013 20:31:41   #
...so anyway, the point of the story is actually a good one to consider and applies to more than just racism. Neoliberalism has been advancing rapidly over the past 30 years, encouraged by moderates like Bill Clinton but pushed most blatantly by the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George "dubya" Bush. Today, neoliberalism enjoys the mindless support of the Tea Party and similar groups of mislead delusionals who probably think neoliberalism has something to do with social liberals.

The point of the story is that all the conditions of equality and civil rights that are established by way of democratic legislation is undermined by that legislation's rapidly shrinking jurisdiction in a world of deregulated business.

This concern reaches far beyond racism. For example, there has been concern about the expected treatment of captured U.S. troops in light of the fact that the Bush Administration activated such a high number of "private security" personnel. Employees of non-government companies that never signed any of the international agreements such as the Geneva Convention.

There will be little or no benefit to depending on laws to protect our human rights if we're just going to tell laws to stay out of our business.
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May 21, 2013 08:18:47   #
GryWlf49 wrote:
@straightUp . . . I'm apparently as new as you to this particular forum, so have patience w/ me. My main comment to your most recent entry is simple . . . if you have watched a combination of the MSM {vs} "conservative" and how they present specific events involving Obama {vs} ANY Conservative/Republican, etc., the facts you seek should be as plan as the nose on your face. You express yourself as an intelligent individual; therefore, I feel if you take the time to read different publications and watch different news outlets on the boob tube, you'll see (I would hope) those facts. Take the issue of Bengazi (yes, sounds like "old news" ), but the facts you are asking about are right there! How many rewrites; how many of the "King's men/women" put in front of the American public w/ a lie, only to have their heads eventually handed to them by an awakening news media/body politic (i.e; Ms. Rice). Consider the comments by dear Hillary that, "It's been so long", and, "What does it matter?" Direct lies? Maybe, maybe not. Lies of "omission"? Mor'n likely, as she never answered the question. Keep reading; keep watching . . . and if you can't see it, it would seem to indicate on which side of the chamber you sit (which doesn't matter, as we will all be adversely affected by the misdeeds, half-truths, and outright lies told by this administration).
@straightUp . . . I'm apparently as new as you to ... (show quote)

I've been reading news sources from all over the spectrum for over 30 years. But thanks for the advice anyway. The problem is that there is so much misinformation flooding the sources that people aren't getting a clear picture. Misinformation is usually based on some fact taken out of context. This is why so many of the folks here on this site are so convinced. They see the fact but don't understand how it fits into reality.

If this administration is indeed lying to the extent you are suggesting, it should have been easy to present a very clear example. But all I see are long bullet lists of unsubstantial references, lot's of "feelings", vague references to various issues and a lot of frustration. So far, no one has actually presented any proof.

You might say something like "I'm not going to do your homework for you." Well, here's my answer to that... The burden of proof is on the accusation and *I* am not the one making the accusation. See, I'm a busy man, I don't have time to read pages and pages of right-wing conspiracy theories and frustrated opinions. If there is empirical evidence then present it (in your own words) and I will read it here on this site.

Otherwise, you just have to accept that I simply don't buy it.
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May 21, 2013 07:42:04   #
donc711 wrote:
I already did discribe a liberal.

No, what you described was your ignorance about liberals.

donc711 wrote:

The way ACA was cramed down our throats was a liberal act.

ACA was discussed openly and put to vote. It was a democratic process and the ACA itself was/is supported by about half the people in this nation. You just happened to be on the loosing side of the vote... "L" ;)

donc711 wrote:

As already accepted about Obama care costing more when costs were promised to come down was a liberal act. Oh the concept was nice but even on its face it had to be very costly.

Healthcare is expensive and the costs are rising. You're going to pay more for healthcare with or without the ACA. In fact, if the pre-ACA trends are any guide, your costs will be much higher without ACA. But go ahead and cry... It's what you folks do best.

donc711 wrote:

As to who is going to help keep me safe in my papers and person etc. It's a constitutional guarentee, and all lovers of our constution will help in anyway required.

Oh, a constitutional guarantee eh? Guaranteed by what? Magic? Here's some reality for you... No taxes, no government... no government, no law... no law, no law enforcement... no law enforcement, no guarantee.
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May 21, 2013 07:23:40   #
AuntiE wrote:
Who do you believe anyone "expect to help secure your person, property and papers."?

Who do I believe anyone...? I'm afraid I don't understand what you are asking.
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May 21, 2013 00:24:45   #
The Dutchman wrote:
Most assuredly, a fair tax without the gestapo style IRS we now have & a sane democracy instead of the socialist style we are now witness to.

I can't fathom what aspects of our democracy are actually styled by socialism. Last I checked, socialism was an economic theory not a government theory.
And Ron Paul, like his father, way to libertarian to my liking.[/quote]
Well, he's too Libertarian for me too. ;)
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May 21, 2013 00:07:37   #
The Dutchman wrote:
I had already retired from the Navy when it happened and was working hwy construction in a remote part of Wy. We didn't get a lot of news up there. One of the guys had a dish on his camper but could never get a signal.


Did you build on Route 80? My daughter and I took 80 right through Wyoming... beautiful country.
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May 21, 2013 00:03:51   #
donc711 wrote:
Look straightUp, do you really know the definition of A LIBERAL? I don't think so. A liberal is one who thnks everyones money belongs to the state because the state knows best how to redistribute the wealth.

You are INCORRECT!
I'll give you another guess... 'cmon, you can do it.. What is a liberal???

donc711 wrote:

Very much like a socialist.

What you described was an extreme version more like a communist.

donc711 wrote:

I understand there will always be the poor among us and they will always need help to survive. I just want to help who I know with no deminishing return like taxes and a say in our social structure. I consider myself conservitive and am guarenteed to be secure in my person property and papers. That too much to ask?

Well, I don't think helping those you know is too much to ask for and if by "deminishing return" you are somehow referring to taxes then I would say the absence of such is not too much to ask for either - so long as you don't expect anyone to help secure your person, property and papers.
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