Hooley,

It is good to see a kindred spirit on the forum.
As for age, you are getting there; I was only 20 years old when you were born in 1951. Keep it right side up..thanks.

1oldgeezer

Coos Bay Tom,

You seem to be a little light on history, it is true that the US and Iran were once "allied"; this ended when the Mullahs ousted the ruler, took over the country and instituted sharia law. If you know history you remember the Mullahs, during this take over, also captured and held the American embassy personnel captive for almost a year before releasing them, a very unfriendly act. When we were "allies" Iran was an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT COUNTRY.

1oldgeezer

UncleJesse,

I think I would not have said that sanctions just lead to failure, a more accurate statement would be sanctions do not ALWAYS work when the other party is dead set on their goals at all costs. In that case negotiations are even less effective.

NK is quite different in their world view from Iran. NK has the communist goal of taking over South Korea; Iran has the RELIGIOUS goal of converting the world to Islam. (You can see it happening now in the middle east with the beheading of Christians who will not convert to Islam).

Iran's efforts are directed by a fervent religious passion that will not be changed by discussions. Deception in negotiations in order to gain that end is seen as religiously justified according to the Koran. This makes "negotiations" and "agreements" meaningless to Iran.

It would seem war is inevitable as long as the rest of the world shows weakness and Iran feels they will be successful (the need for nuclear weapons) in waging the war. HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF. It took the crusades (a war) in order to reverse the Islamic effort last time.

1oldgeezer

Hooley,

Doesn't some of these posts make you wonder how people like KHH1 got so screwed up in their thinking? Very effective deliberate indoctrination or mental deficiency ? A real question and a threat to our freedom as a nation if/when the numbers increase to a certain level.

1oldgeezer :cry:

Ricko,

Well said, true, and to the point! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

1oldgeezer

Coos Bay Tom,

There you go, using the extreme, no one said that negotiations shouldn't be an acceptable way to settle problems. The discussion was about this particular "negotiation" and this particular client's trust worthiness; a factor in whether negotiations will ever succeed. Is Iran truly negotiating or just stalling? I have an opinion based on past performance, present support of terrorism, and Iran's stated goals for the "big and little Satan".

Iran is the center of the global attempt to establish a world dominated/ruled by the Islamic religion, one of the methods to do this includes war; take the territory by force and kill all "infidels" that don't submit or convert to Islam. YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST AT THIS TIME???????????

Negotiating with a killer about which way he will kill you (say knife or gun) is somewhat useless. Instead of applying sanctions to hinder Iran from furthering their weapons program we (Obama) has lifted the sanctions, and gave Iran the time and resources to further advance the program. we are enabling Iran to get the time and cover to attain the "gun" to kill Israel as they have stated they will do.

If you have doubts about their intentions, consider why they are also rapidly developing long range missiles; do you suppose these missiles are for delivering normal explosives?

You state that we can destroy Iran if we wanted to. Once Iran has a number of nuclear bombs it will be only a matter of who makes the first strike, that will determine the "winner". The world will be in a very precarious position this time when the aggressor finally acquires nuclear weapons.

1oldgeezer

Coos Bay Tom,

The right wing wants WAR ?

Without saying anything about that, I would invite you to think about the past wars and figure out who STARTED the wars, was it even the US, much less the RIGHT WING group. Was the twin towers destruction an act of war? by whom?

There are about a dozen conflicts (wars) raging in the middle east at this time, who is behind those conflicts, the RIGHT WING? (or someone with whom we just negotiated in good faith (our good faith, not necessarily theirs).

It seems the only way you would not have war is if you capitulate and not resist. Is that your proposal? Before the last world war Chamberlain tried that, Remember how that worked out? I suppose we could have avoided that war too, but we would be speaking German now. Is that your approach?

Give it some real thought, not just repeating popular phrases. Put the blame where it belongs.

1oldgeezer

Artemis,

Of course war should always be the last resort, too bad all nations don't really believe that. (History tells us all nations don't believe that.)

The real choices in this fiasco wasn't this agreement or war, it was Iran stripped of the capacity to produce nuclear weapons or war. This agreement fails to do that. Once Iran finalizes the ability (now assisted) to produce, , nuclear weapons the "war"(s) will be expanded throughout the middle east and then the rest of the world. Have you been paying attention to what is presently happening in the middle east and who is responsible for the conflicts????????? We have just enabled Iran with this HISTORIC agreement.

1oldgeezer

KHH1,

I see you have faith that a regime that secretly built the capacity to produce a nuclear weapon and then lied about it will now be honest and abide by all agreements, remembering the past experience of the IAEA "inspections".

The only real effects of this negotiating period was to relieve Iran of the sanctions and give them a "safe" period for as long as the meetings last. This safe period and no sanctions has now been extended to June. After that is is back to the same old deceptive program only without any sanctions (better able to fund the weapon making program without hardships on the civilian population and the risk of popular citizen resistance).

That will last until Iran has the weapons and wishes to abrogate the "agreement". Then, lookout Israel and the world, the second coming of the Muslim prophet after Armageddon.

It is hard to imagine a better deal for Iran, (almost as if Obama was working with them ?). Nah, Obama couldn't be a Muslim and still be US president...unthinkable!

1oldgeezer

J Anthony,

They didn't "cede" the power to business, they SOLD it to enrich themselves, and are still selling it to enrich themselves.
(The power they "ceded"...was that the power to write tax laws and regulations, and give grants, that businesses don't have?)

It seems we are both saying the same thing, except you seem to have the cart before the horse. Businesses don't write laws or regulations which create the debt and the conditions for the need of the "loans". (They pay corrupt politicians who have that power to do that.)

I'm not saying businesses are not complicit in the problems, they certainly are but are one step down the tier from where the real power is if you want to stop the process.

Your post said: "We must reclaim that right, but not until we have cleaned out those in government who are complicit in the scheme."....you are right, that would be an essential first step. BUT..you seem to be relying on honest politicians replacing those you "clean out", this is not realistic.

Have you considered that the only realistic way to stop the selling of political power is to take that power away from the Federal government politicians so they don't have a lot to sell? (Hard to do but much more possible that making all politicians honest). Go back to our founding document, the constitution, reserve the power to the citizens and the states as prescribed by that document.

Work for a balanced budget and reasonable spending, that should take care of the FED reserve problem when we start spending only what we take in (no loans needed).

1oldgeezer

[quote=SeniorVerdad][quote=eagleye13]old geezer;
I don't think you understand who I blame, and how America got where it is. Our government got to where it is by covert planning and manipulation:

Party politics: “The Fix” is in
(written in 1992; GHW Bush was running for a second term against Bill Clinton updated in 2012)
The majority of Americans are disgusted with our government “representatives”, and what is happening in America. The frustration is spreading, and yet, Americans are again falling for “The Fix”. It is obvious something has to change; but what? To solve any problem, “the root cause” must be discovered, understood, exposed, and eliminated. In the realm of politics; exposing “the root cause” of America’s decline on any significant scale, has been unattainable. Almost all major media is directed and controlled by “the root cause” which sets “The Fix”.
Decade after decade, and election after election; too many voters fall for “The Fix”. They either don’t vote out of disgust; or they vote for “the lesser of two evils”. This syndrome has put America where it is today, and evil continues to prosper. Give thought to “The Fix”. The Democratic Party promotes a variety of liberals/socialists, (“progressives”), and the Republican Party promotes a variety of “Conservatives” (covert global socialists/NeoCONS? - Bush and his “New World Order” is one example). Under both parties, our Constitutional Republic (not democracy), is being decimated. The Constitution and the principles that made our country the most prosperous, and the envy of the world, is being replaced with a semi-covert agenda for global socialism. Few Americans understand the purpose of the globalist agenda; but most politicians believe in it, or have sold out to it. That is why their oaths to uphold and defend the Constitution have been meaningless to most of them.
“The Root Cause” of our country’s decline; is the privately owned Federal Reserve System (banks), and their control of our money and economy. The perpetrators are the internationalist bankers, whose policy it is, to create a global socialist “New World Order”. With their vast wealth, media control (ownership), control of (“public”) education, and control of the party apparatus; they are able to ensure that both parties will nominate candidates that will carry out their agenda. With this control, the people fall for “The Fix”; out of disgust they either don’t vote, or they feel compelled to vote for “the lesser of two evils”, – banker backed “A” or “B”. Thve voters are told, “no one else can win”, (“don’t Waste your vote); now the scam was to convince the voters “who is the most electable against Obama”. It had to be someone the Bankers knew they could control, to ensure that their agenda was carried out.). That agenda is a One World totalitarian socialist dictatorship, administered by their front men. I will as concisely as possible back this statement up with their own writings, and try to stir the readers to give this letter thought and thus, renounce the NWO agenda.
Both parties executive cabinets (national security advisors) are filled with members of “the Council on Foreign Relations” (CFR) and “the Trilateral Commission” (TC)). John D. Rockefeller formed the (CFR) in early 1920’s, and David Rockefeller formed the TC in 1973. David Rockefeller’s chief foreign policy advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, put the organization together for his boss. Jimmy Carter was made a TC founding member. After Carter was elected president, he filled his cabinet with CFR/TC members, with Zbigniew Brzezinski as his chief foreign policy “advisor”. Reagan’s cabinet began with fewer (CFR) members, but many non (CFR) members were drummed out of office. (with the help of the liberal MSM). When Reagan finished office, most were again CFR/TC members. Bush senior is a Trilateralist and 9 of 11 of his national security council are (CFR) members. Bill Clinton is a CFR/TC member, and attended the Bilderberg meeting last year. P. Volker, A. Greenspan, H. Kissinger, Robert Strange McNamara are but a few of the high officials that belong to the CFR, TC, and the Bilderberg Group.
To show where these people and organizations are coming from; I quote -
TC report #23, 1982 – “… actions at the multinational level will be needed if the process of international relocation of industries is to be accelerated in an organized fashion …” (a policy to deindustrialize America) Now; please really reflect on what has happened under both parties CFR/TC administrations and Congresses.
Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote in his book, “between two ages” p. 72 (1970) - “Marxism is simultaneously a victory of the external active man over the inner passive man, and a victory of reason over belief.” This man, a Democrat and Henry Kissinger, a Republican; both employed by David Rockefeller, and both CFR/TC /Bilderberger members. Both are one world globalists (pro Marxist/Fascist, per their own writings). Think about it! Can you see how “The Fix” is ensuring a one world dictatorship, to be ruled by these parasitic elitists?
(ZB) ( http://www.wanttoknow.info/brzezinskigrandchessboard.shtml )

In “Foreign Affairs ”(a CFR publication), April 1974, Richard Gardener, Ambassador to Italy, writes “an end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal attack.”[/quote

Well "Eagle eye," at least someone has the proper view and perspective(pun intended) as to who is really calling the shots politically and economically.[/quote]

====================================
SeniorVerdad,

You have it right, this change has been orchestrated over a long period of our history and it is directed to establishing a world government controlled by the moneyed, the Fed being a part of that. Before a world order could happen the United States free society had to be subjugated, that is happening now.

Now, step back, and see how the Fed depends on the GOVERNMENT to overspend in order to create the need for the Fed's loans and then the GOVERNMENT approves the "loan" from the Fed. The National debt is not a Government debt, it is YOUR (and my) debt brought on by an expanding vote buying GOVERNMENT. Obama is a master at that, the national debt has doubled under his administration's policies.

We need to take back our government by electing people who believe in a balanced budget and responsible fiscal policies so we (the United States) can control our own destiny.

The FED has only the power our GOVERNMENT gives it by DELIBERATE overspending, creating the need for "loans".

1oldgeezer

J Anthony,

quote.."It is not so inconceivable that there are better ways to organize and run societies, a way that doesn't thrive on endless waste/consumption, or the delusion of infinite-growth." unquote

Your job is to find that system for us. A system that relies on having only honest, moral persons with the absolute power to "organize and run the society" is not a realistic system. (Sounds a lot like socialism or communism, you know how that worked out). I, for one, would prefer a system where the maximum freedom to choose is given to the citizens by law so they can determine their own fate. I guess I have more faith in the cumulative wisdom of the citizens (expecting some mistakes that need correction) than I have in the wisdom and honesty of some self serving bureaucrat.

Wait, it seems we had something like that at one time but weren't smart (and moral) enough to keep it.

Have you ever wondered why the United States became such a beacon to the world and so prosperous in its early history; why so many people still want to come here?

Oh, well, if things go as planned, Hillary Clinton will be elected and that will solve all the world's problems. (Right after it explodes).

1oldgeezer

SeniorVerdad,

Once again, the business/government partnership only survives because of GOVERNMENT POWER. Corporations don't write laws or regulations, they have to buy a corrupt politician to do that for them. STRIP THE SELLER (corrupt politicians) OF THE POWER - ENFORCE THE CONSTITUTION.

This problem will NEVER be solved by simply complaining and blaming the businesses or lamenting the fact that everyone is not honest. Your power to correct this problem of crony capitalism (Business/Industrial complex) is to support politicians who feel the same way you do about this and are willing to place restrictions on the Federal government. A good START would be get rid of the present tax code, go to a sales/fair tax. (Know any politicians running who are proposing this? - vote accordingly)

Businesses are often a willing part of the problem, but not the ROOT cause, often they are solicited and have no real choice. (If they don't agree to the deal, the politicians simply goes to their competitor and makes the deal). Without excessive government power there would be no deal!

1oldgeezer

astrolite,

I'm sure you knew what to expect in an article from the Dailykos.com and I believe jelan knew also that the article was simply more propaganda put out by the Soros propaganda media. Jelan is just doing his (paid?) duty in bringing it forth so it appears legitimate.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your work in "clarifying" the post for me and the rest of the forum readers.

1oldgeezer :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

J Anthony,

The point is you don't have to try to make everyone "honest" (good luck with that!) But, not all people would lie and cheat when given the chance (some would), for those that would ... take away the power to do you harm so they don't have that choice.

Example: (Get your mind in gear) Why does any business charge what they do? If their prices are too high and/or quality is low you choose to buy from their competitor, and the company charging the too high a price/poor quality or one with a bad reputation of being dishonest goes out of business (unless they have a govt subsidy, "bail out", or a govt "must buy" mandate).

YOU/WE (CITIZENS) HAVE CONTROL OVER THE (DISHONEST AND HONEST) BUSINESSES IN A FREE MARKET.

GET THE GOVERNMENT CONTROL AND SUBSIDIES OUT OF THE MARKETPLACE. RESTRICT THE GOVERNMENT TO THAT OF ASSURING THAT THERE ARE NO MONOPOLIES IN THE MARKET PLACE (Antitrust law enforcement). Have you noticed that under Obama, the present trend is a rapid change in the opposite direction ????

Again, don't expect any system to be perfect, it won't be as long as humans run the show; but don't make the mistake of judging a system by it exceptions (occasional problems) instead of the majority experiences.

1oldgeezer