:)

Wow... you're blowing my mind dude, really... All this time I was thinking war was invented by the last Bush Administration... and really, I thought there was such a thing as a perfect person. I thought that's what Bob Costas was.

;)

So are we calling free speech a Get-Out-Of-Jail card for the hostile occupation of the West Bank and the oppression of its people?

How are these two related? I was referring to your river-to-coast description of the original territory. THAT was an over-simplification.


I would agree with you entirely my friend but for one thing... Jerusalem is not inside Israel. Now this maybe a point of dispute for us, but think about what you're saying here. The city that you think should be an "international" city is currently being mandated by the entire international community of which only one other member recognizes Israel's sovereign domain


True... not sure how that matters.


That's true lol
Perhaps your downplay on the difference between victory and a moral high ground is the crux of what makes us different. ;)

Yes, we do.


That a little oversimplified and basically incorrect... The original boundaries were established by the U.N. when they granted Israel it's sovereignty in 1948. Before that it was all Palestine under the British Mandate.

https://www.clearias.com/up/History-of-Israel.png


Ultimately, you could say that anyone with enough power can do whatever they want but that doesn't always justify their actions. But you seem to be suggesting a rule and the only rules that currently apply to disputed territory are the international agreements that Israel continues to violate. I also disagree with your suggestion that Israel was attacked. The first war since the Israel was established as a sovereign state was in 1956, the so-called "second" Arab-Israeli war, which started when Israel attacked Egypt.

The second war was in 1967, the so-called "third" Arab-Israeli War which started when Israel again attacked Egypt. Israel justified their attacks by saying that Egypt closed the Straights of Tiran to Israeli shipping, which they did, but that’s not the same thing as attacking their country.

The third war was in 1973 and in this case the Arabs did mobilize first but they didn't actually attack Israel. The Egyptians moved forces into the Sinai, which was still internationally recognized as part of Egypt and the Syrians moved into the Golan Heights which was still internationally recognized as part of Syria.

If you're wondering why I haven't mentioned the first Arab-Israeli war, it's because despite the Arab offenses, Israel technically didn't exist yet. This was in 1947 and “Israel” was literally a stateless terrorist organization that did the same thing ISIS was trying to do by declaring a “rightful” domain. In fact the U.S. and Britain imposed restrictions on arms coming into Palestine (which is what the place was called then) BECAUSE they were… terrorists.

So, I'm very aware of the pro-Israeli revisionism that insists the Arabs have always attacked Israel but it's just not true.



It's funny how you say that sovereignty justifies the violation of international agreements by a country who's very sovereignty was granted to them by... international agreements.


Israel isn't standing up to anyone, the U.S. is. If not for us, the modern state of Israel would not have persevered and would probably never have even existed in the first place. Israel was a dumping ground for Jewish refugees that we didn't want to accept into our own country. Since then it has become a strategic base for American interests in the M.E.


This is true to some extent, except they weren't trapped in Israel, they were trapped on their own land by hostile forces. The neighboring Muslim nations were hesitant to open up their borders to refugees thinking that it would be better to fix the problem at it's root and push the invading force out of the occupied territories. So far they haven't had much success.


The "problems" those NGOs were causing was the exposure of truth and the right-wing Likuds have little tolerance for truth or justice. It's harder to justify the oppression of people when the truth keeps leaking out. ;)

Peewee - The point of the original post is that those who are mistreating Palestinians are degrading their own humanity. This is not something you can justify with laws anymore than the Nazis could justify their holocaust with laws. You're a sad person if you think humanity can be dictated by legal systems.

But since we're being critics here, let me also point out the gaping flaws in your response.

First of all, Palestinian homes are being bulldozed in lands OUTSIDE the sovereign state of Israel. The West Bank, the Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip are NOT legally part of Israel. They are occupied territories and as such the laws that apply to these lands fall under international consensus and it's Israel that is violating these laws not the Palestinians.

The idea that Palestinians are squatters ignores the fact that many of those homes being razed by Israeli forces are functioning farms that have been in Palestinian families for generations. Long before Israel was a state.

Also, your attempt to suggest that Palestinians and Jews are equal under Israeli law exposes your ignorance. Within the sovereign state of Israel, law has always been discriminatory with regard to land and voting rights. In the occupied territories where Palestinian homes are being leveled, laws are not even being considered. The Israelis are doing it because they have the firepower, it's as simple as that.

Finally, it takes a tremendous dose of stupidity to think that Israel has been "nice". They have been operating their own holocaust against the Palestinian people and using the excuse that Palestinians fight back to justify it further.

We're in the age of Trump peewee, I don't understand why people like you still think you need to justify what Israel does. Why don't you be a man and just admit that you hate Palestinians and want to see them wiped off the face of the earth? At least you would be honest.

Yes, it is... And the recent decision by the Supreme Court to NOT interfere with gerrymandering is a landmark assault on our democracy. The voter suppression continues to operate under the guise of protecting our elections from voter fraud, which is a unicorn if there ever was one.

The problem is that with every election, America is less inclined to vote Republican, so the GOP has to resort to dirty tricks to stay in power which is why the last two Republican presidents won elections despite loosing popular votes.

And now Bitch McConnell is sitting on all the voter protection bills saying that elections are a matter of state policy and the federal government should stay out. But notice he isn't saying anything about the federal government's Electoral College overruling the votes of millions of Americans.

The Electoral College is a broken system. It was designed to provide surrogate voters based on the number of representatives which was supposed to increase with the population to maintain a 700,000 to 1 ratio. But the federal government stopped increasing the number of representatives after the 1913 census and since then, all regions of increased population have lost representation relative to regions with slower growth, such as the red states.

The myth is that the Electoral College was designed to protect smaller states from bigger states but that's a misunderstanding that comes from the fact that to get the Southern states to ratify the Constitution, the population that determines the number of representatives had to include slaves as 3/5th humans. So it's the number of representatives that the Electoral College is based on that was affected by that agreement, not it's purpose and that agreement became obsolete in 1868 when slavery was abolished anyway.

The real reason for holding on to the Electoral College is that Republicans need it to overrule the popular vote and keep themselves in power. It just so happens that the regions with slower population growth also tend to suffer from lower levels of education, making them over-represented AND under-educated. Perfect marks for the rhetorical strategy of the GOP.

Recent analysis is suggesting that Trump could loose the popular vote by as much as five million and STILL win the election in 2020 by virtue of uneven representation alone. Voter suppression and gerrymandering is the good measure Republicans are taking to ensure they don't loose by more than five million.

Just to put that number in perspective... There are only 1 million soldiers currently in the U.S. Army including the Reserve and the National Guard. There are less than a million police officers in total for the entire country. Total NRA membership is currently at 5.5 million and 26 of the states in the union have total populations of less than 5 million. So I'm gonna say that the over five million Americans that the Republicans want to exclude is... significant.

I just want to interject here... It's not the Jews, per se... In fact a LOT of Jews are opposed to what Israel is doing, especially the Orthodox Jews that believe the land-obsessions of Zionist Israel is itself, a violation of the Jewish spirit. Furthermore, the majority of the people supporting Zionism in Israel are actually Christians in America, many of whom actually think the Jews are needed in Israel to secure the return of Christ at which point they will all convert to Christians.

But to your point... I do agree that the inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people naturally degrades the humanity of those involved, including the Zionists (Jews AND Christians) and anyone who supports their policies and actions in Israel and lands they occupy illegally.

So, let me get this straight... you're saying that because Hillary lost, every "ism" will feel the loss of freedom (by the way capitalism is also an "ism") and you think this is a good thing?

Also, the American doctrine recognizes rights as inalienable, which literally means they cannot be taken away from anyone just because they are aliens. You can try to cast them as invaders if you think that helps your case, but it's been my observation that immigrants are only called invaders by people who fear them.

Trump has no redeeming qualities as a human. But as a device he does... He is instrumental in the sabotage of numerous American institutions (just look at the people he put in charge of the various departments). He has also undermined the confidence that the rest of the world had in the American system by showing the world how every promise made by America is only good for the duration of the current administration (at most). And worst of all, he has demonstrated how easily the American people are fooled.

The reason why I call these things redeemable is because there are those that benefit from the effects. For instance, slashing regulations that were put in place to protect people and the environment from exploitation opens up the opportunities to exploit again. Meanwhile, undermining the confidence in American promises to the world means that other nations will find more reliable options in Chinese or Russian strategies.

Of course, none of these things help the American people or American power, but that probably explains why the Russians were so interested in putting Trump in office in 2016.

Pissed off about what? They haven't even made it to the border yet and you're pissed at them? For what? Walking? Being alive? See, this is how I know you're full of it. You can't be pissed at someone who hasn't even done anything yet. You're "concerned" about what you *think* they are going to do when they get here... That's called fear.

You can deny it all you want but when people want nanny government to build walls and deploy troops to protect them from newcomers, there is only one explanation and that's fear. You lack the courage to live in a free country and that's why you're a conservative asking the government to protect you from people you're scared of.

The Federalist is a propaganda machine for soft Americans that don't have the courage to live in a free nation or the brains to figure out that they're totally being used by an oligarchy that may as well be screwing your wives while you shine their shoes. You wouldn't know any better.

What Hitler did to the Jews was persecution and genocide. This was accomplished through law and order. Fascism was what Hitler did to the German people to create a nationwide hatred toward Jews that allowed the laws to be passed in the first place. I'm not just being argumentative here. I'm trying to give people a better picture of what fascism is and how it functions because it's being used on Americans today, so we really should understand it instead of just kicking it around. Trump isn't doing to the black people what Hitler did to the Jews, but he *IS* doing to white Americans what Hitler did to Germans.

Fascism is NOT a doctrine. It's a method exemplified by Mussolini during his populist rise to power.


I don't remember that political rhetoric specifically but there has always been anti-black sentiment in American culture every since the 14th Amendment.

I agree with your statement about the polls. It's too bad your wisdom in that regard doesn't carry over to your assessment of the economy. Seriously, it's the same argument. Polls are misleading because they are mere samples. By the same token all your "indications" of a better economy are likewise mere samples.

Also keep in mind that the economy has been on the upswing since Obama's first term, many if not all of the the added jobs since Trump took office are actually riding that wave. There is no real indication that Trump or the Republicans have done ANYTHING significant to claim credit for ANY of it. In fact there is a dangerous risk that the economy is getting too hot and we're setting ourselves up for another crash. If Trump had brains he would be talking about stabilization, instead of bragging about record breaking figures.

Also, if you're thinking the stock market is a reflection of the economy then you really have no clue at all. The stock market has almost nothing to do with the economy. It's supposed to and it once did, but the stock market and the economy have been diverging for the last 30 years. At this point there's very little in common and it's becoming a factor in many economic predictions expressed in terms of r=returns (stock market) vs g=growth (economy). I don't know if you've seen this ... (r < g) but that's basically a expression of wealth concentration where capital returns on investments are greater than the actual growth of the economy, which means money is being shifted from the working class to the capitalist class.


So how old does that make you if your life experience predates the people Lenin was calling useful idiots?

LOL (Just kidding, I know what you mean.) ...And while I agree with you that Republican politicians haven't always leaned so hard on identity politics to leverage the support of useful idiots like they do today nor were they always such agents of oversized, intrusive governments, always pushing for laws that say what people can smoke or who they can marry. Oh, wait you probably meant Democrats... well they do it too. Let's not be hypocrites. But the fact is you're assessment of how well this country was doing when you were fixing hotel toilets is just as selective as your assessment on the economy. YOU might think the country was doing fine, but what you really mean is that YOU were doing fine. Black people, not so much. Maybe you think black lives don't matter, but like it or not they are part of this country.

Anyway, you get my point. The history of this entire nation isn't defined by your personal experience. To see the bigger picture you have to get over yourself. Try it sometime. ;)

Masterfully? You give them WAY too much credit. There are a lot of ignorant sheep in this country. You just have to know who they are and the rest is easy. It's really doesn't take a mastermind to scare them.

Also, it's not fascism toward blacks... It's just fascism. Fascism is a method of taking control from a democracy and putting it in the hands of a tyranny based on an appeal to emotions like hatred. It just so happens that ethnic divides are some of the easiest ways to accomplish that. In the U.S. it's pretty easy to tap into racist hatred against blacks for that purpose. In mid-century Germany, it was the Jews.