LOL - I'll start by agreeing with your final point... (indeed, there are many stupid voters... on all sides).

I also agree with your point about the law of averages. I too think that with humans being what they are, we should see more even numbers in the aggregate and this is why I pointed out the difference between the elected politicians and the appointed politicians, because when it comes to the elected politicians, the numbers ARE more even... well, 8 Democrats to 13 Republicans, but parity is lost on the appointed politicians 1 Democrat to 12 Republicans. So as I said, my conclusion there is that the Republican leaders are less excusable that the Republican voters.

I have some theories about the lesser difference between voters based on the idea that political differences often tie into cultural differences. For example, there is a certain "compliance" that is bred into people who come from a congregational culture. These people are effectively trained to believe what they are told by the pastor whom they are told to trust. There is no flexibility in this model. This culture is far more rooted on the right than it is on the left and I think it's effects carries into politics.

That being said. I'll go through your enumerations...

#1 - list is grossly inaccurate: I got the initial list from Wikipedia for reasons I stated earlier and I verified at least six of the names and found no error. I won't say inaccuracy is impossible but I think it's unlikely.

#2 - Republicans are by nature more dishonest than Democrats: This is where I have to ask if you're referring to private citizens or the politicians themselves. I don't think this statement applies to the average voter, but I suspect it does apply to the politicians (with exceptions on both sides of course).

#3 - Democrats being far more devious than Republicans: This time, I'll just assume we're talking about the politicians and yes, the thought HAS crossed my mind. It could be that the Democrats are just better at not getting caught. Of course there's no way to prove that either way.

#4 - voters reactions after convictions not accounted for: Hmm, I'm not really sure how reactions after convictions make any difference as to whether or not a politician is elected then convicted. Are you saying that if Republican voters are disappointed with a convicted politician they can take back their vote so we can take that name off the list?

#5 - Nationally Republicans outnumber Democrats leading to a higher number of disgraced politicians: The basic problem here is that nationally, Democrats outnumber Republicans. There are of course variations among the polls but the average result from all of them indicates Democrats are ahead by a significant margin. This is not a new trend either and it explains why the only presidents in my lifetime that won the EC but lost the popular vote were Republicans. It also explains why almost all of the recent gerrymandering is being done by Republicans. It makes sense... they are fighting the odds BECAUSE there are far more Democrats. Finally, I don't see ANY Republicans pushing to reform or eliminate the EC. That fight is all on the Democratic side which wouldn't make any sense unless they had the numbers.

I don't know about you but a lot of conservatives seem to get confused when they look at an election map and think because most of the surface area is red, it means there are more Republicans. But unless you're counting the cows and the trees as Republicans, this is assessment is erroneous. There are far more American citizens in those little blue blotches than there are in the large swaths of red. So if that's what you're going by, I suggest you find the maps that account for population not just acreage. Look up "cartograms".

Otherwise, I'm not sure why you would think there are more Republicans than Democrats.

I'll go with your #2 - with emphasis on politicians rather than voters and maybe #3 as an unprovable possibility.

Of course. None of us really know for sure until it happens. ;)

lol - I don't know about his niece either... I mean literally... I didn't even know he had one. Not sure it matters either. I know about King. I can hear his voice in my head as I read the speech. One of my favorite lines...

"We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline."

I hope these words don't get lost in the fury created by a media industry competing for our attention.

Happy MLK Day ya'all!

I just thought I'd put aside the squabbling for a moment to share the text of that famous speech by that great American figure that we honor with this day.

I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity.

But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. So we have come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.

In a sense we have come to our nation’s capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked “insufficient funds.” But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check — a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quick sands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God’s children.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro’s legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.

We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force. The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. They have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.

As we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, “When will you be satisfied?” We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro’s basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating “For Whites Only”. We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.”

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to the South with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

This will be the day when all of God’s children will be able to sing with a new meaning, “My country, ‘tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim’s pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring.”

And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!

Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California!

But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God’s children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, “Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!”

Obviously, they did or they wouldn't have proceeded.


Ah, yes... The completely unsubstantiated right-wing narrative. You need to add some memes of Pelosi shooting heroin - that should help your case ;)


You might see it different if you actually listen to what they are saying instead of just laughing at the memes.


You're calling a public demand for his tax returns, collusion. Ya wanna think about that for a minute? Also, just because the list of charges is long doesn't mean it's invalid. That would be like saying the holocaust was fake because 6 million Jews is too many to be real.


Are you forgetting the nonstop accusations the Republicans made against the Obamas and the Clintons that went on for much longer than three years? And THOSE accusations didn't even come with any evidence!


I'm pretty sure the Democrats are more connected to the average American than the Republicans are and unlike you I actually have a fact to back that up with... Democratic registration is up 40% of the total, Republican registration is only at 28%.

And as for this "duly elected president" crap... I don't give a flying rats ass how "legitimate" his election was, it's no excuse for his bad behavior. If anything, the Democrats are securing stronger support among the largest demographics because of the overwhelming disapproval for that POS you call a president.

When I posted that list of federal politicians that were convicted of crime, there were two columns... one with the list of Republicans and the other, a list of Democrats, therefore I HAVE considered "the beam in my own eye". But since my entire argument is to show conservatives who insist they are standing on higher ground, empirical evidence that their own side is actually more criminal, Mathew 7:3 does seem appropriate. So thanks for bringing that up ;)

The list is long but the article that permafrost linked to provides a good start. If you want me to give you an example, I suppose I can start with the frantic opposition to the impeachment trial. Whether or not you agree with the charges against Trump, the Constitution established the impeachment process for a reason and the Democrats apparently think that reason is enough to prosecute Trump. So, the ethical stance on this is to allow full consideration of the evidence and witness testimony and let that process determine if he is guilty or innocent. It should never matter who the defendant is, or which party he belongs to. What matters is upholding the Constitution.

The last thing Pelosi or any of the Democrats wanted to do is impeach Trump. Contrary to the right-wing narrative, most Democrats are confident they will win the election in 2020 and if the right is correct about anything it's that the acquittal that we all know is going to happen in Senate will more likely help Trump in 2020 than hurt him. So why then would they proceed?

The answer is ethics. Given the case against Trump, the Democrats were at risk of losing their own support if they didn't take a stand. So even if Trump is acquitted and even is he wins in 2020, the Democrats will still have at least preserved their ethical standing by impeaching him. On the other hand, the Republicans have done everything they can to frame this impeachment as a scam, going to far as to suggest the Senate dismiss the case or disallow any witnesses. McConnell actually stated publicly, that he will work in full cooperation with Trump, which is really no different than a judge telling a court that he's going to work in full cooperation with the defendant. Do you want to tell me how ethical you think that is?. All of this undermines the seriousness of the only Constitutional provision for dealing with a corrupt president and it's all being done to preserve the right-wing politics that Trump champions.



I'm gonna say that's all on you. I never actually said that, nor do I think it, nor do I think it's even possible for one faction for have everything right. In fact, I take the conservative side on a number of issues.

OK... none that I know of. Happy?

That being said however, I don't recall any politicians making such astounding promises and then failing to meet them, so Trump DOES stand out in that respect.

Still, if you paid more attention to what I was stating you would know that I mentioned campaign promises as being of lesser significance to the point I was making about normalizing shitty politics.


There's already been an abundance of back and forth on this issue and it's not relevant to the point I was making which is this... Trump supporters are willfully supporting a degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.

I'll say it again, so you get it this time...

Trump supporters are willfully supporting a degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.

I encourage you to find a solid argument to challenge this assessment. If that's too hard for you and you would rather spar over Trump's record on his campaign promises because you think he actually kept his promises then I'll start by giving you the same challenge you gave me... Name one.

Thanks for sharing that permafrost.

I certainly think the question regarding the loyalty of Trump's base is worth looking at and the article featured in the Atlantic really brings this question out - not so much underlining Trump's failure to meet campaign promises or the meaningless of his campaign promises in the first place, but more than anything, to highlight the significance of the attempted "normalization" of shitty politics.

Indeed, there was an era where politicians had to hide their corruption because they could never get it past the American people. This is something Republicans today very much depend on as they point to the Democratic past and suggest a wide range of crazy, hidden conspiracies. But what Trump did (and this is perhaps his greatest "accomplishment") is he pushed the envelope on what Americans are actually willing to accept and this is creating a new divide between us, not so much based on the forgivable premise of being misled but on the unforgivable premise of willful choice.

This is why "divided America" carries so much more weight now under Trump than it ever has before. It's one thing to point to a citizen and say "you've been misled" - quite another to point to a citizen and say you made the informed choice to downgrade American ethics.

I have a Mossberg 12 gauge too... I traded my much heavier Remington for it. Very happy with the trade.

Do you think they know how they appear to the vast majority of people around the world? These apologists for a so-called president who has demonstrated a degree of callous ignorance and blatant corruption never before even imagined in the White House and then having the audacity to claim the moral high ground?

I understand that, which is exactly why I stressed that Nixon and Trump were caught doing things that clearly violated the Constitution BEFORE they were being prosecuted.

Think about it... if Clinton just admitted to the affair, there would have been no grounds on which to impeach him. So, yeah, he made a bonehead move - I'm not defending him there, but as you can see by my list, I am not suggesting the Democrats are perfect people, either... But there *IS* and undeniable pattern of reality that conflicts entirely with the image Republicans have that they stand on the moral high ground. They clearly don't.

Of course you can...

These convictions are public record, so there are lot's of sources. You can google for instance "federal politicians convicted of crime" and get plenty of hits. Personally, I like using Wikipedia because they do a good job of organizing things like this into easy-to-read lists and they include all of their sources in their notes so you don't have to take their word for it.

(The image that you see, is taken from a spreadsheet I used to compile the names from the data I found.)

Also, keep in mind - these are only federal politicians. I didn't have time to dive into the hundreds of convictions at the state and municipal levels.

So this is all the Republicans have... opinions about how "sleazy" they think Democrats are and wild fantasies about them.

In contrast, I have some hard facts to share...



These are ALL the federal politicians convicted of crime since 2000. No imaginary crimes or fabricated conspiracies or personal opinions about how sleazy they are. Just the facts.

Something else to note... The names followed by a party indicator and state (ie.. R-TX) are legislators that people vote for directly. There are 8 such Democrats and 13 such Republicans... In contrast the names with only a party indicator are the politicians appointed by their party. There is only 1 such Democrat and 12 such Republicans. This tells me that the mistakes citizens make when voting is a little more even across the board, but with such an extreme difference in appointments I think it's safe to say the Republican party itself is in fact the indisputable champion of corruption.

Given the context of the post - yes, it *is* a minor point... if even a point at all.


Being under indictment is not the same thing as being under investigation. People don't come under indictment unless there is clear evidence of a crime. It's a step beyond investigation and a step short of conviction. Hillary was under investigation for 25 years and was never indicted because those 25 years of investigations failed to reveal enough evidence to indict her. That being said, it's my opinion that any vote for a public figure while he/she is under indictment DOES say something about the voter.


I'll give you half a point for this one because Barry was convicted for possession of drugs which is not an offense against anyone but himself. Unlike Collins, he did not interfere with markets through inside information and the abuse of his office. Nor did his election support come until AFTER he served his sentence.

We also can say a Democrat was impeached but with the same difference... Clinton got in trouble for having an extramarital affair, which can hardly be called a crime against the country. His own personal integrity maybe and Hillary of course, but not the country... illicit affairs are not even an impeachable offense... His attackers had had to goad him into denial to catch him with anything impeachable. The preparation of the impeachment of Nixon and Trump - totally different. Those two were caught doing things that clearly violated the Constitution BEFORE they were being attacked.

So yet, crime happens on both sides, but the point being made in my post is how much worse it is on the Republican side.


And by the same token, Trump's help wouldn't be needed to convict the Bidens either. Are you getting the point yet?