That's not what you folks on the right were saying the last time federal forces came to Oregon to deal with the Bundys who intentionally set fire to federal land. Hypocrisy, anyone?

So what the violation this time? Oh, graffiti... on one federal building? Clearly, a situation so dire that Trump had to send hundreds of combat-ready agents. I mean, how else are they going to protect their building from kids with spray cans, right?


I don't think so Sparky. But feel free to prove me wrong. It would mean you have to find the law that says so.


Those vets are well within their rights and their opinions about Trump have nothing to do with why they are there. The fact is, the federal agents following Trump's orders are violating the Constitution and the vets are there to remind those federal agents of their oath to protect the constitution even if it means disobeying orders. Who else is going to tell them that?


LOL - As if you have any clue what "most combat vets from the 'Nam War" think.


It's called the U.S. Constitution and most Americans are familiar enough with it to know that Trump and his federal goons are violating several of its provisions, especially the 4th Amendment.

I don't.


The reason why "rest of America" is being bullied by a bunch of "leftist brats" is because those "leftist brats" are actually the majority of American people who want to see America change for the better. In contrast, the deplorables are a political minority that have lost touch with reality and when they get outvoted they whine and cry about being bullied by "leftists" because they don't know what else to do but lash out with insults.

My favorite part of all this is how deplorables complain about being bullied by people who they portray as whiny brats. I find that hilarious.


The majority of Americans which you call "leftist brats" have nothing to do with the KKK and never did. We are perfectly aware that the last of the southern white supremacists switched to the Republican Party during the Nixon campaigns which explains why the south is predominantly Republican now. I've spent enough time in the South to know that didn't happen because all of sudden the people there stopped being racist.

Perhaps you underestimate the level of stupidity it actually takes to buy into some of your narratives. LOL


Should I be congratulating you for figuring that out?


I don't know anything about their upbringing, I was simply pointing out that this isn't the first time Oregonians have squared off with federal authorities in recent history. I mentioned the Bundys and their face off with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). Apparently, that one flew over your head.


Wow you are REALLY showing your lack of intelligence here. First of all, violent protesters and agitators are counterproductive to any form of protest so it wouldn't make any sense for BLM or any of the other organizers to pay for them. Secondly, America, being a free nation, has a long history of protests where agitation and violence are well known methods for sabotaging them not joining them. So is your statement really coming from your own inability to see the obvious or are you just parroting what you've heard?


So then my assumption that you were opposed to the Bureau of Land Management during that ordeal was correct. Then again, the hive-mind of the right-wing bandwagon made that an easy assumption to make. Whatever your daddy says right? Is that because he used to beat you? Is that why you got a hang up about kids that don't get spanked. Aw, man - I'm starting to feel sorry for you.


LOL - Oh, I know the difference between a federal agency and an activist organization that you think is Marxist because that's what your daddy tells you. And I'm laughing at how you decide which side to support. The Bundy's broke federal laws and federal agents were there to deal with the crimes, but you opposed the federal agents then. Now, the federal agents are back in Oregon, this time to harass protesters and you support them because you think the protesters are Marxists. Ha, ha, ha, ha!!!


So... we're talking about Marxists here? Well, I don't spend a lot of time chasing right-wing delusions, so I guess you'll have to remain the expert there - LOL... But I can tell you that BLM has succeeded in bringing police reform to the table. Cities all over the country are passing reform initiatives and so are states and even Congress is working on police reform bills. These efforts are a direct result of the peaceful protests organized by BLM.

I realize this upsets the true racists on the right to no end but I expect their outrage will eventually be confined to their own backyard pity parties just like it does every time things get a little better for black people. In the meantime, I guess we have just have to deal with the tantrums for a little while.

Trump's goons will continue to show the world how ineffective they are against the will of the people who will kick Trump out in a few months anyway. Biden will call the federal agents back and restore constitutional rights. Reform will proceed and the deplorables will fester in their racist misery as always.

I remember you making the prediction because it was one of the few things we agreed on but let's admit the fact that since 2008 it really hasn't been difficult to predict an escalation of tension.

What's next? I dunno. That's the interesting thing about the times we are living in. Anything can happen.

I can think of various scenarios of course, but there's no way of telling for sure if any of them will actually come to pass.

I hope for a peaceful transition to a better America.

U.S. District Court Judge Michael Mosman made a bad judgement call. He based his decision on his personal biases using the scant evidence as an excuse. The fact is no evidence is even necessary given that the Constitution does not give the executive branch the authority to overstep the state in any matters not involving violations of federal law. I'm not sure if the graffiti on the federal building constitutes a violation of federal law, but that would be the only thing remotely close to there being any reason for federal authorities to intercede.


Not without first proving their authority, reading their rights AND declaring the violation for which they are being charged. The problem Portland is complaining about is that federal authorities are apprehending these people without arresting them. That's search and seizure my friend, which is a violation of their constitutional rights.

This whole circus is buzzing with constitutional violations by an impeached president. It amazes me that you still search for ways to justify what he is doing. I get it - Trump is your guy. He's been promising all the things you want. But seriously - find another guy!


You didn't understand what I was saying. I wasn't describing what federal agents were doing in those specific cases, I was describing a typical situation as a more common example of provocation.


You seem to be missing the point. The problem isn't arresting them. The problem is detaining them without arrest. Look up search and seizure for crying out loud.


Honestly, I can't see how you know this just because you took the oath.

But since you did, let me ask you a direct question... Do you think it's OK for the president to override the authority of the state in matters not involving federal law?

Yeah, it seems pretty obvious to me. It's been a common practice throughout history.

Well, that sounds a bit like a temper tantrum.


I wouldn't be surprised if what I do in a day to help the cause of a free America is more than you've ever done in your life.


They're Americans. Americans don't like to be pushed around by overbearing authorities. Especially the Americans that live in Oregon. You don't remember the last time federal authorities had a run in with Oregonians? 'Seem you conservatives were against the federal authorities that time. Is that because it was a branch of the federal government called BLM? Or is it because the Bundy's wore cowboy hats?

Nothing in this story conflicts with anything I've stated. You got a guy caught in the chaos that Trump created by sending in his goons. Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant by provocation? I was suggesting that federal agents were sent to Portland to provoke chaos.

Apparently they succeeded.

Now a city in chaos is going to generate a LOT of different stories. You may have had a hard time with the story I got from the Guardian. The media is all over Portland looking for perspectives that they know their audience wants to hear. There's left-wing media, right-wing media and everything in between and they're all in their looking for stories. Gabriel Johnson is a guy Fox picked up to extract a story that favors their narrative.

Were black people calling him the "n-word"?
It's likely.
Was he chased around with baseball bats?
ehhh... I think it's more likely that gestures were made and he was exaggerating to the reporter, but nevertheless, a lot of things can happen in chaos.

The sad thing here is that he was trying to use Old Glory as a unifying symbol and I think this was probably the very thing that drew the hostility. I think it's terrible that it's come to this but I think it has at least in the throes of a riot and I can think of two possible reasons for it...

For one, I think that for some Americans the flag of their nation is being hijacked by white supremacists.

A lot of people are protesting with BLM because they lost friends or relatives not just to police brutality but the bigger scope of brutality that comes from the white-on-black racism that our system is known for turning a blind eye toward. Here's the thing... white supremacists are HUGE on symbols and they never show up with an an American flag as if to claim it as theirs. After seeing is enough, I'm sure it burns down to an associative level in the mind of a black American.

The other possibility is the fact that they are in a city in which protesters are literally being attacked by federal forces and well, Old Glory represents the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, which is technically a reference to the federal government.

Either way, the guy was literally parading it through a riot. So it's hard not expect him to get *some* insults and gestures along the way. I didn't see much hostility in the video - in fact when he suggested people stand by him and his flag, I saw protesters doing just that. All of the hostility described was his word.

In any case, like I said... Lots of media, lot of stories with different messages. But none of that matters in a true analysis of the situation. The hundreds of stories the media can pull out of it can be sold and fed into public opinion but none of it changes...

The fact that civil unrest has increased since federal troops have arrived.
The likeliness that it was intentional based on one or more of the motives I've already described.
The fact that neither the city nor the state had requested any assistance.

This is why I am saying that your story changes nothing about my suggestions.

Last night a wall of vets assembled in Portland to protect the peaceful protesters from the unmarked, federal "agents" in combat fatigues that Trump sent to the city to disrupt their cause in yet another violation of the U.S. Constitution.

https://static.onepoliticalplaza.com/upload/2020/7/26/t1-472052-wallofvets.jpg

video of the wall of veterans

The fact is, vets are starting to notice that there is something terribly wrong with what these agents are doing. Here's an excerpt from a recent article in the Guardian...

The Black Lives Matter protest in Portland looked to be winding down last Saturday night when US marine corps veteran Duston Obermeyer noticed a phalanx of federal officers emerge from the federal courthouse.

They shot teargas at the crowd and pushed a protester to the ground with such force that, Obermeyer said, she slid 6ft across the pavement.

The 42-year-old drove to Portland for his first protest after hearing the many recent reports of federal personnel in tactical gear emerging from unmarked cars with automatic weapons to pick up protesters. His plan was to observe first-hand what was happening.

But in that moment, he said, he realized he couldn’t stand by and simply watch.

The 6ft 4in, 275lb man walked up to the officers and asked whether they understood their oath to defend the constitution. Just a few feet away, Obermeyer was aware of another man, US navy veteran Chris David, asking virtually the same question.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/24/portland-trump-order-federal-officers-veterans-protests

These vets understand the oath because they all took it and their message to these federal agents is clear... If you have to choose between following orders and protecting the constitution - you protect the constitution. And now, vets like Obermeyer are coming to the shocking realization that Trump is issuing illegal orders.

Last night the wall of vets confirms this is not just a few isolated vets and the crisis in Portland that was created by Trump is starting to expose the ugly truth behind what Trump is doing.

The fact is, Portland was on its way to peaceful negotiations over police reformation when Trump decided to send in federal forces. He said it was to protect people and property from violent protesters. Portland looked around and said "what violent protesters?"

Apparently, there's an ulterior motive.

Just to emphasize the point, the normal process is for local or state authorities to handle civil unrest and *IF* they need help THAT is when they ask for federal assistance. But Trump never got that request. He sent in forces on his own initiative instead.

Why?

We can only guess but current conditions make the guessing pretty easy and it's not a pretty picture...

After four years of making America worse than ever, Trump is desperate to stay in office so he can remain protected from justice. I think it's highly probable that Trump thinks he can improve his chances this election by staging a situation that will make him look like a hero (at least to his base). For this to work the story needs to start with violent protesters wreaking havoc and it needs to end with Trump's forces arresting those criminals and restoring order. But what if there aren't any violent protesters? That's where provocation comes in. Start punching people in the face until they start punching back and now you have violent people.

This is not a new trick, we just haven't seen a U.S. president use it before. It's more commonly found in street situations where bad cops try to get detainees to do something they can use as an excuse to take them down with. So the key here is to provoke the protesters into committing violent acts and that appears to be exactly what these federal agents are trying to do. If it works they can "control" the situation... arrest a bunch of people and "restore order".

The only other motive I can think of is even worse... If Trump loses the election he can retain power by declaring a national emergency and initiating marshal law. For this he would need the same situation to happen in cities across multiple states and well, it appears he is indeed sending federal agitators to other cities now including Chicago, again without being invited.

These are just educated guesses of course. And they may seem far-fetched to us because our nation has been so stable for so long, but Trump is leaving us without any alternative theories, except the narrative he is trying to create, which we can see is BS.

I'm just glad to see that a lot the men and women who took the oath to protect our constitution haven't forgotten what that means and that they can recognize in Trump the public enemy that he is. I sincerely hope we can save America and send Trump to prison through a peaceful election and constitutional justice.

LOL - Whether or not Trump has 3/4 of the military (which is only 3% of the population) or the police really doesn't matter if you're using that 90% figure because you can't vote as a cop and then vote again as a Republican. So let's talk about that 90%, which I assume is based on Trump's approval rating among Republicans.

First, let me remind you that Trump got 89% of the Republican vote in 2016 and was still beat out by 3 million votes during an election in which the Democrats suffered one of their lowest turnouts on record.

Since then, Trump's brew of incompetence, brutality and disregard for our Constitution has encouraged a blue wave of new Democratic registration. We saw this as early as 2018 when Democrats took back the House and gained seats in the Senate. (Also, keep in mind, that even if Trump does win he will still be neutralized and probably removed from office if Republicans don't also keep the Senate. So you really have to win both - Like everything else in his life, Trump can't do it on his own.)

But it doesn't look like that will matter anyway since the blue wave hasn't stopped growing and not even those new black votes for Trump add up to the number of Republicans jumping ship. The Democrats are now ahead by 12 million registered voters. The average breakdown across the states is 40% Democrat, 28% Republican and 29% Independent. As of a few days ago, the Independents have overtaken the Republicans for the first time in history.

These are the numbers that count. It doesn't matter how many in these numbers are racist cops, brain-washed soldiers or confused black people - all that matters is the total number of voters.

This trend isn't slowing down either... The Never Trump Republicans that were marginalized for the past few years are now getting a boost from Trump's utter failure to handle the pandemic and protect the economy and the conservative Lincoln Project has raised $17 million in opposition to Trump.


LOL - the fact that some people were stupid enough to fall for Trump's birther conspiracy had nothing to do with my support for Obama and to be honest, I'd rather have a president without a brain than a patsy for Putin. Fortunately, we have Biden... He may be getting a little senile which is why he wasn't the first choice for many of us but he has the network and the respect among real professionals to assemble a far better administration which will include qualified advisors that he will actually listen to.


More like... the Trump train keeps rolling OVER the tax paying, producing, law [abiding] people of America and I guess it's up to the liberals (who pay most of the taxes in this country, BTW) to stop that train and save the American people.

I like how at the end of his post he says "hate is therapeutic". I wonder if that was a freudian slip.

Relatively speaking - it's not that many.


LOL - A few if any. Most Independents know that what Trump and Fox News has been saying about Antifa and BLM is BS.


I think most Dems know better than to fall for the idiot notion that law enforcement is under any threat.


Apparently you aren't paying attention. Democratic registration is breaking records right now.


Well, when you wake up, look again.

Nah, I'm just an average guy who calls a duck a duck. After four years of Trump-related squabbling it doesn't take a genius to figure out the motives prevalent among trump-supporters. I never actually said that every Trump supporter is a racist. I did suggest that bigotry (of which racism is one variation) is a common characteristic among all Trump supporters but that's because I forgot to consider people who for a lack of intelligence just follow what others tell them.


Yes - not very. I listen to Trump supporters and I try to understand their view, which is never difficult because those views are always so simple. I ask questions and I consider the responses. The idea that bigotry plays such a predominant role didn't develop in my mind overnight. I resisted for a long time, looking for other reasons. But in four years I have yet to meet one single Trump supporter that can present an intelligent and compelling reason to support him.

You are more than welcome to be the first. Go ahead and tell me why YOU think I should vote for Trump. I will consider your response if it's serious one and not just an insult or a wisecrack.


Yes - it appears that way.


Yes, there will be a lot of votes cast against Trump out of hatred for him of course but there is also a lot of focus on actual issues and that's what the Democratic Platform is emphasizing, not forgetting that saving America from Trump is indeed a big campaign message.

One of the bigger differences that I am seeing between the left and right is in the tolerance or even the acknowledgement of Trump's violations of protocol and human decency.

The fact that Republicans refused to hear witnesses during the impeachment trial for instance... That was a damaging precedent to set no matter what excuses people came up with. The idea that a president is above the law is another dangerous precedent and Trump's policy on the border has put the U.S. on human rights watch lists for the first time in history. I could go on but you get the idea. These are not the kind of conspiracy theories that the right depends on to demonize the left, these are things that actually happened in plain sight.

Liberals are concerned about these violations while conservatives make excuses for them. Why? Is there another motive more compelling than our constitutional safeguards against tyranny? More compelling than basic human rights? When I look for that answer in the opinions of Trump-supporters I see much more concern about vague generalizations like "making America Great Again", "draining the swamp" and getting rid of the "raccoons".

In another thread, I recently mentioned the USAToday feature article called Trump Nation where 103 Americans explained their reasons for voting for Trump. None of them mentioned a single policy, problem or promise. The reasons they did mention were vague and presumptuous, like "He's a straight-talker" or "He's a businessman" and of course the hatred for Hillary.

So, I turn to Trump's rallies to see what he brings up. What I see people reacting to more than anything else is when he attacks certain demographics especially liberals. I don't remember any other president doing this. Clinton, Bush, Obama - they always addressed the American people as one nation. They never had rallies where only their supporters show up and they never made nasty comments about the people in political opposition. But Trump does and he gets standing ovations for it - and the nastier he gets the more pumped up his audience gets. I watched it happen many times.

This is what leads us to believe that even though both sides are guilty of some bigotry and hatred. The Trump rallies really drive home the realization that what is far more compelling than the issues I've mentioned is an attack on other Americans they don't like.

The conversations on this forum don't help matters. Wolf counselor came right out and admitted to being a racists on the first page of this thread right before saying he will vote for Trump. https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/tpr?p=3367979&t=189856


What - hating Trump? Well, it certainly helps influence votes - any Trump-supporter should know this. But I think the winning platform is a concern for the future, like how to give ALL Americans access to affordable healthcare, protecting the environment, better defense against viral outbreaks and a restoration of human rights at the border.

It seems the vast majority of Americans share these concerns while Trump support is less than 40% right now. So you tell me. Do you think Trump's platform is a winning one?

Why are you asking me? Did you drop out of school before they told you or do you just not remember? OK, I'll tell you but I want you to answer a question of my own.

First... The U.S. Constitution is essentially a blueprint for the republic that governs us. As such, the rules within apply to the government (not the people). There is no stated rule about who the Constitution "belongs" to but there is a general notion that it "belongs" to the people for which the government serves.

Since your political view is based on general notions, I figure this must make sense to you.

OK. Now for my question...

What exactly do you think a soviet is?

Just want to say - I'm impressed with your willingness to face up and admit to your racism. Most racists continue to deny it. Actually, most people are racist to some extent but for some, the bigotry extends to politics and affects their vote and that's where I lose tolerance.

Thanks for confirming that Trump is indeed the racist choice and I'll just extend my sympathies now - since I know Trump has no chance in hell of winning the next election because political racists like you are actually a small minority in America (Thank God!)

I know he won in 2016 but that was something of a miracle for you folks. He lost the popular vote by 3 million. I realize that the people don't elect the president, Congress does using the EC as a proxy, but the popular vote is the true reflection of the people's will and the difference between the will of the people and the EC is a matter of political trickery through district mapping and that trickery is what put Trump in office. I won't get into the Russian influence simply because it's not possible to quantify the impact.

Don't expect that to repeat in 2020. That 3 million deficit in popular support for Trump is most likely going to be bigger this year and the bigger that deficit the more difficult it will be to compensate with trickery.

Go ahead and encourage all your friends to get out there and vote for Trump... It won't help you because your numbers are too small. Even 100% of 24% is still only 24%, which by the way is the percentage of Americans that voted for Trump in 2016... 24%. Granted not ALL of you voted but Trump's nation-wide approval rating never even got to 50% and right now it's at 40%. His average is 42%. Compared to other presidents that's a really low score.

Meanwhile, the only reason why Hillary only got 3 million more votes is because the Democrats had one of the worst voter turnouts in decades, following the Clinton-Sanders rift. I don't see that situation repeating. The Democrats are going to be in full force this year because unlike in 2016, they've had four years of watching Trump degrade America. They will be joined by a lot of Independents and even Republicans for the same reason.

A fool might get elected once on a fluke, but it's highly unlikely the same fool will be re-elected after four years of confirming his foolishness. Trump's staff knows this, which is why they are scrambling for new tricks and Trump himself is testing our response to suggestions that he may not accept the election results.

LOL - Here's the real difference between those cities... size and diversity.

Republicans don't run cities they run towns. They can't handle the size and diversity of a major city which is why every major city in America IS run by Democrats and it's been that way for a long time. (San Diego is the ONLY exception for cities with more than a million people, probably because it's in a Democratic run state)

And BTW, those cities that you think are destroyed have been the drivers of our economy for as long as they've been run by Democrats.

So, when Republicans can step up to the major leagues they can start making comparisons - until then your comments about Democrat run cities will remain nothing more than very funny jokes.