Yes, another cultural delima brought on by the left-right cleavage of our nation that political parties have been playing with for decades. Of course there is nothing left or right about wearing a mask in any functional sense but once a figurehead takes a position, the masses polarize accordingly. It's reactive, not responsive.

Nevertheless, to your point... this polarization is in fact, interfering with our ability to respond in any coherent form. Seriously, we are sitting ducks for any biological weapon.

Yes, I have noticed the second wave in Europe, just as medicine had predicted and I expect they will handle that one better than we will when it hits us. As for Russian stats... look, the same things apply to all governments. We may never know the precise numbers, but hospitals record the occupants of their beds, so there is some truth the patterns we see, all numbers considered.

Other things are not so easily obscured... Like, whether or not a government shuts down, effectively shutting down the economy and whether or not the mortality rate increases significantly.

Then there's just the simple logic of it.

In my initial response to your statement, I was focused on the handling of PPE. But I think your statement might deserve a little more consideration...

As much as I blame Trump for his handling of the pandemic, there is another component that should be reviewed. The fact that the neoliberal structure of our republic and the commerce around it is woefully incapable of dealing with a pandemic.

This is not a good thing to be exposing as the world watches us flounder. Certainly not in the dawn of the age of bio-chemical warfare.

And you are correct... every president from Nixon to Obama can be rightfully burdened with blame. Specifically, the neoliberal mistake spans from Reagan to Obama. During that time, a lot of the national systems erected by progressives like FDR and Eisenhower to provide national security and stability were privatized. Keep in mind, anything privatized is free to offshore whatever they want. Taxable profit? Jobs? You name it. Congress has yet to make a law to force companies to contain themselves inside the country and it's unlikely the world will ever see any such law emerge from America, land of the free.

Most other developed nations have a bigger role for public services, such as socialized medicine and socialized education. I know I said the "S-word" twice, so let's just be direct. Yes, these are socialist systems because they are owned and operated by the people by virtue of representative democracy. It's not communism... It's democratic socialism. They are not the same thing. Yes, Karl Marx saw socialism as a turn along a path to communism but he also saw capitalism as turn along the same path. Fact, is either of these economic theories can be used without ever developing into communism.

Fact is... this pandemic has really exposed the difference. Germany, considering it's role as a commercial and military hub has had incredible success in limiting the spread of the disease while keeping the economy up and running. Korea as highlighted in the documentary has also been relatively successful. So has France. All these countries have more socialism than we do.

That means... national stockpiles are used for citizens and residents, not sold to other governments. It means medicine can be distributed efficiently without getting bogged down with private sector red tape like insurance claims, etc. It means citizens can still get medical attention even if they lose their job.

We have none of these things because we have been programmed to despise socialism to the point where it's become a Pavlov trigger and we will vote for whichever representative says he will slay socialism and once elected they will plug right into that neoliberal network and broker deals with private investors that seek new profits from fresh cuts of privatized services.

So our pandemic experience is different. Most of our systems are privatized and now. When the pandemic reached the point where states started shutting down, those of us that lost our jobs also lost our healthcare coverage. (Not a good thing during a pandemic.) We also lost our ability to service our massive student loans.

So, overall - it appears that with regard to the pandemic, the citizens of more socialized democracies have fared better than we citizens of less socialized democracies. Not just in terms of stress and finances but in terms of our ability to survive a biological attack.

And this is all without considering Trump at all. In fact, Trump is less neoliberal than any of the previous presidents since Reagan but he is still driven by the same dollar signs, he just isn't in the same gang.

What Trump did was ignore the precedent of the War Powers Act that says a president can order private companies to manufacture products of strategic value and ordered private companies to sell what inventories they had to a foreign power then negotiated prices so the private sector can buy them and SELL them to the highest bidding states.

So, it's still putting citizens at risk for the sake of putting money in the pockets of "buddies" in the private sector, just in a more... brazen way... AND during a time then thousands of Americans are actually dying from that risk.

Yeah, I know but Trump supporters have never been the reason why I post anything here anyway.

I found it on Hulu. I think it's available elsewhere, but you probably have to search for it.

Then how do you explain the CS China COVID Procurement Service? Trump DID have access to PPE and he forced U.S. manufacturers to sell it all to China as a means to funnel it all to the private sector where companies can make a killing.


And yet American companies like 3M had inventories of PPE to sell to China.


OK... well, I don't know what this has to do with the topic, but which of Einstein's theories of relativity are you referring to? And did you know that he published his theories in the 20's before their was a Nazi party?

Why don't you just stick to what you know? Try to remember this forum isn't limited to right-wing retards.

"Democrats think others are as they are." Oooh, that's so clever Eagle... Can your make it rhyme? I remember in grade schools really clever kids came up with this one... "I am rubber and you are glue... whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

Basically, the same thing... I'm always so impressed with the awesome intellect of the alt-right.

I don't think that's even a sentence. LOL

I just watch the documentary "Totally Under Control". This is what happens when a president fires every last expert for disagreeing with his narrative... Filmmakers get access to all those experts and witnesses and together with public records, press releases etc...

I highly recommend watching this documentary...

It just blows my mind how Trump has done so much to screw up the response to the corona virus that's it's hard not to wonder if it was all intentional. For anyone asking exactly how Trump screwed up, this documentary really lays out out.

Here are just a few examples.

John Bolton dismantles the Global Heath Security Team set up by the Obama Administration to handle pandemics because... it was established by the Obama Administration.

Chinese government warns Trump about the outbreak found in Wuhan way back in January. Trump waved that off.

Several cases were found in several states BEFORE Trump decides to limit travel from China... (Not stop travel, but limit travel). American businessmen and tourists were still allowed to travel back to the U.S. bringing infection with them. Obviously, the travel restriction was a political stunt and did nothing to prevent the spread of COVID in the U.S.

CDC develops test kits but they all fail. Germany develops test kits that work and the WHO starts to distribute them to every nation except the U.S. because...

Trump directs the FDC not to approve the WHO test kits. So labs across America, have no way to test while the virus spreads across the country and around the globe.

Meanwhile, South Korea adopts a test, trace and isolate strategy that winds up controlling the spread, limiting the deaths and preventing an economic shutdown. Trump is still telling the American people not to worry.

During his trip to India in February, Nancy Messonnier a director at the CDC, makes a public announcement to warn the American people that the virus should not be taken lightly and that the government does NOT have control over the situation. When Trump returned he fired Messonnier.

On February 26, The Trump Administration gave labs the green light to use the part of the CDC test kit that works and to ignore the part that doesn't. The New York Times follow up with stories on the Lost Month. So basically the entire month of February where Trump refused to let American labs use the only test kits available that worked. It's impossible to know how widely the disease spread in that time, but when labs started to test, it became clear that it spread like fire.

As far as I am concerned Trump's actions constitute a high crime and Trump should be tried for endangering the American people without just cause. But it doesn't stop there!

Also in February, Trump initiated the "CS China COVID Procurement Service" where he cleared an exception in this trade war regulations and ordered the top producers of N95 masks and respirators to sell their entire inventories to China. U.S. hospitals were then left with having to import the masks at ten times the cost.

Next, Trump initiates the Corona Virus Supply Chain Task Force and puts Jared Kushner in charge. It turns out the task force was about 10 kids in their early 20's who volunteered to do the work for free using their own personal laptops and e-mail accounts to search for suppliers. They were all forced to sign non-disclosure agreements so they wouldn't spill any beans.

The main philosophy here is that the government can't do anything, so instead the task force leaned on private sector supply chains. As it turns out, the task force hadn't procured anything.

Then the Trump Administration initiated a new plan called Air Bridge, which is basically a plan to subsidize the efforts of private companies to buy and sell personal protection equipment (PPE) such as N95 masks. Here's how it works.

2. Max Kennedy's team (under Trump) would find the PPE and negotiate the lowest price.
3. Private companies would then pay the bill.
4. Federal Government would pay to fly the PPE to the U.S.
5. Then the private companies would sell directly to whoever they want at whatever price they want.

Since the federal government failed to provide the needed PPE, the states were forced to search the market for what they needed. State governments were actually bidding on EBay for the PPE they desperately needed.

Now it's starting to make sense. Instead of directing American manufacturers to supply American hospitals with the required PPE, the Trump administration found a way to ship the entire supply to China where American distribution companies could buy it, import it back to the U.S. and sell it to the highest bidder.

If that's not enough of a racket, FEMA started to bid on the equipment thereby increasing the price even more.

Gavin Newsome, governor of California made a direct appeal to the Federal Government and Kushner told Newsome that they would give him a shipment ONLY if he would publicly thank Trump, which of course he did in the interest of saving lives. Why would a president put American lives at risk just to get a governor to publicly thank him?

The documentary also covered the deal with Remdesivir, an experimental drug developed by the government under the Obama Administration and for which the government currently owns the patent. Once again, Trump gives it away to the private sector so they can profit. A company called Gilead now charges $3,000 per patient. (only patients desperate enough to try the experimental drug and with $3,000 to spend can get it) the $3,000 dose only costs Gilead $10 to make.

Meanwhile, Koreans are changing their minds about Americans because while they were able to control the pandemic and keep the economy open, Americans were floundering, unable to test for that first critical month, unable to control the spread, largely because Trump was encouraging people to ignore the science and medical teams and eventually states had to start shutting down.

So when it comes down to it. The idea that Trump failed due to incompetency is incorrect. Trump actually succeeded in turning the crisis into a profitable racket for a few corporations and the American people simply became his victims.

This is not an isolated case... I've been pointing out Trump's attacks on the American people since he took office. He was a scammer before 2016 and continues to be a scammer now, using the presidential office to victimize the American people.

The only people that will vote for him now are morons, plain and simple. Hopefully, most Americans are smart enough to vote against the prick and when he is dragged out of the office I will continue to pressure the government to try him for ALL his crimes and yes... if found guilty, I will advocate for his execution... for the sake of the presidency and the American people. Potential tyrants and abusers need to understand America is not to be toyed with. Our nation will not tolerate the abuse and endangerment of the people for money. I'm sure the founders of this great nation would agree with me.

I think it does too. Nice to be in agreement for a change

Yes, I do. By comparison, Sanders and AOC are farther to the left. One way of getting a gauge on this is to note the position on healthcare. Sanders and AOC prefer Medicare for all, which is essentially socialized medicine. Obama and Biden prefer the market-driven approach exemplified by the ACA.

If you are the extremist that you are leading me to believe you are, I don't suppose any of that matters to you as extremists seem to lack depth perception.


Yes, I do. I realize that EVERY president "says" he does but I didn't see any indications to the contrary with Obama like I do with Trump.


Yeah, I think so. Put it this way, he didn't make it any worse... He didn't start any wars. He honored our commitments and gained a lot of respect among our allies.


OK Seth... whatever you say.


Yeah, I'm not really a fan of that whole "America First" BS. I think at this point in history we need to come to grips with the fact that the world is highly integrated, which means we can't escape globalism by shoving our heads in the sand. It's also a bad time for a nation that leads the free world to start acting selfish when China is expanding its influence and becoming more generous.

I also think "America First" is a rhetorical slogan meant to appeal to nationalists, just like "Deutschland Zuerst" ("Germany First") was for the Nazis. Nationalism is always driven by something called "othering", where you create the perception of "others" to blame, fear and hate. I think the rhetorical nature of the slogan is further exposed by the fact that Trump's so-called "America First" agenda really hasn't made things any better for the American people as a whole.


You are referring to the Abrahamic Accord and you couldn't be any more off-base. First of all, there has never been any hostility between any of the signatories to that accord. Neither Bahrain nor the UAE were EVER at war with Israel, hot or cold. But they did have trade sanctions as part of a worldwide response to Israel's hostility in the occupied territories. All the Abrahamic Accord does is lift those sanctions. They call that "normalization" which leads me to the second flaw in your statement...

This is actually the third such accord to normalize relations between Israel an Arab nation. The first was Part 1 of the Camp David Accords brokered by Carter in 1979 which normalized relations between Israel and Egypt (Part 2 was the peace treaty, because Israel and Egypt WERE hostile until then).

The second accord, brokered by Clinton in 1994, normalized relations between Israel and Jordan which was also hostile until then. So despite the bows we see Trump taking, he was NOT the first president to normalize relations between Israel and an Arab state. And while Carter and Clinton were negotiating deals between two formerly hostile adversaries, Trump (or should I say Kushner) was not.

Whah, whah, whaah.


What other countries? Dude, I've been paying attention. I can remember all the parades and confetti when Trump returned from his tour of Asia and all the talk about the great deals Trump was making, but here we are years later and NONE of them ever got off the ground.

Sure, he replaced NAFTA with USMCA (which is officially known in Canada as CUSMA and in Mexico as T-MEC Tratado entre Mexico, Estados Unidos y Canada) but the differences are so slight it's hard to call it anything other than a remake. Only about 10% of NAFTA was changed and it wasn't all to our advantage either. Trump did get Canada to relax limits on our dairy exports but that about it. Trudeau turned out to be a far better negotiator because we lost ground on our intellectual property disputes with Canada which was a far more contentious dispute than exporting milk.

The only other significant change is in the automotive industry, where Trump pushed to regulate wages (which seems a little communist to me) in any case, that whole deal turned out to be a bigger advantage for Mexico and pretty much a wash for Americans.

I don't know if diving into details is worth much to either of us. So... feel free to ask questions. Otherwise, I'll move on...

Eh, maybe not... It's 3:30 and I have things to do. Maybe I'll respond to the rest of your post later.

Enjoy the rest of your day Seth.

I think cognitive health is a concern for anyone in their 70's running for office, including Trump. Yes, I think the signs are there for Biden, but then again, I think they are for Trump too. The difference is that while Biden struggles to regain his continuity, which makes it rather obvious, Trump just continues to talk without any regard for continuity. I see this when he goes off topic mid-sentence and when he slips into safe generalizations like "we have good doctors... very, very good doctors... and... I think that's a good thing... a very good thing." I think Trump is just the better actor.

To be honest, I can't believe we are being forced to choose between two geriatric men in their 70's. But that's the reality we have to deal with.

Outside of cognitive health I think Trump presents a greater concern regarding his physical health. He is obviously overweight, he doesn't exercise and his diet is a one-way ticket to a heart attack.

I would also have to agree with those Democrats that the chain of events that would follow a situation where Biden were no longer fit to lead would be preferable to four more years of Trump/Pence. Just to be clear, I don't base that so much on the personalities involved as much as I do on agenda. I think Harris will have more input on the Biden agenda to start with than Pence has ever had on the Trump agenda and I think it's far more likely that Harris will continue with the Biden agenda should she ever take the Oval Office.

So, just out of curiosity... what scares you about Harris?

Just telling me the proof is right in front of my face is not evidence. It's not even an explanation


Repeating something doesn't make it true. I'm not going to take your word for it just because you've said it over and over again.


Oh, now your going to complain about the way I break a rant into separate issues so I can respond to them directly? This, right here, is a perfect example... In your last post you start with saying the proof is right in front of me, then you complain about how you have to repeat things. Then you complain about how I fragment posts which has nothing to do with the proof that's supposedly right in front of me. That's basically what a rant is Seth. A long string of disconnected issues.

Keep your post coherent and focused and I will be less inclined to fragment.

And BTW, I actually I learn a lot more when I come here than you probably think.


I rarely deny anything but there's a lot that I doubt. Not exactly the same thing. In my mind everything is a theory and how much of a theory I doubt or beleive comes down to the logic I understand and the evidence I see. Right and left has nothing to do with it. I lean left because overall, I like their solutions better not because I'm a loyalist.


Easy to explain... Obama's accomplishments are well known. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize after two years in office. So... we really don't have to prove anything. On the other hand, Trump isn't being recognized for much outside of his own rallies so his supporters are frantically running around with these lists of supposed accomplishments to try and convince people that he's worth something.

The lists that I have seen have been an aggregation of false claims, credit for things other people have done, wide sweeping generalizations, easy points and a list of actions that most people consider really bad ideas.


Dude, 'cmon... I've SEEN his orange face on live TV which is not something people can edit. And we know it's cosmetics because we've seen him without it too. So he kind of set himself up for that. And being the narcissist that he is, he is constantly putting himself at the center of attention, so that's on him too.

Yes, a lot of people say some nasty things about him. People said a lot of nasty things about Obama too. It's politics, deal with it.

Personally, I have stated numerous times in various topics across this site that it's NOT all about Trump... That Trump is actually a symptom of a bigger problem. It is also my opinion that Trump would not be where he is without a LOT of help. I seriously doubt his pampered a$$ could even change a tire, much less run a business without lawyers or a government without McConnell.


Just another day in politics.


Seriously? OK, here's just a few...

1. Healthcare reform... Whether you agree with it or not this is something progressives have been trying to do since the 80's but were always stymied by Republican resistance. And Obama didn't just sign the bill he was also involved in the design AND he corralled the bipartisan support needed to pass it into law. Say all you want about the ACA but the fact that Republicans are STILL trying to kill it after 70 attempts strongly indicates it's value to the American people.
Newsweek: GOP Aims To Kill Obamacare Yet Again After Failing 70 Times

2. He presided over the economic recovery from the Great Recession, cutting the unemployment rate from 10% to 4.7% over six years.

3. The Iran deal: Obama's incredible ability to rally multilateral support got the U.S. the entire EU, Russia, China AND Iran to agree to a deal in which Iran promised to limit their nuclear program to peaceful energy production and allowed the other countries to monitor their program. Again, say what you want about that deal but the fact that even after the U.S. pulled out, the other countries are sticking with it, is a testament to the importance of what Obama did.

I'll just leave it there to avoid overloading the conversation with disconnected issues that call for fragmented responses. Oh, and notice I didn't have to mention Trump. (easy to do when focusing on real accomplishments)


That's a fair question. I can't predict the future but I would say his experience in the Senate AND in the White House is a good start. I also like that he listens to his advisors because I do believe experts are more reliable than "gut feelings" when it comes to decision making. Gut feelings are for gamblers and dictators not presidents.

I also think having a law degree is a worthy credential because government is about laws, not business.

I also like his choice for VP... Kamala Harris is relatively young and very sharp and I don't think she'll be a mere lapdog for the president, I think she will confront Biden when needed and she will temper his presidency into something stronger than either of them on their own. The fact that he chose her gives me more confidence in his ability to be a good president.

I also like Biden's reverence for the military. His son served and I think that makes it a little more real for him. I also like the caution reflected in his voting record on military resolutions going all the way back to the Gulf War. Honestly, I'm not surprised to read in the Military Times that Biden is the favored candidate among those in uniform.

I think his blue collar upbringing also brings him closer to middle-class Americans and I see that reflected in his speeches relating to the "little guy" and again in his voting record on matters that affect the middle-class.

When it comes to foreign policy, Biden's close association with Obama will go a long way as Obama is still highly respected by our allies.

So there's a few reasons why *I* think Biden will be a good president and I didn't have to mention Trump. That being said... I think we both know that Trump is a big reason why Biden is getting so much support. Many on the left would have preferred someone more... well, "left" ...and perhaps more radical. Biden is considered by most Democrats to be moderate ala Obama, with an ear for socialism but a lean on free-market economies.

I don't think he's going to change the world if that's what you're looking for. But I think he might calm things down after the last four years of insanity and restore some faith in American leadership.

So, will he be a GREAT president? Probably not. But will he be a good president? Yeah, I think so. Is he a better alternative to Trump? Well... I think you know my answer to THAT question.

Like I've said numerous times now, Seth - show me some evidence. So far you haven't done that. Instead, you stomp your feet and accuse me of denial.

Go figure

This country has so far worked out pretty well for me, Seth. I'm a white male with a lucrative career. I've raised a family, bought houses, started businesses... So, I wouldn't say it's the wrong country for me.

Now, I have no idea why you would think Venezuela or Cuba would be a better fit for me based on my assertion that governments wouldn't have to mandate things if they could trust people to do the right thing.

I mean... you got me stumped there - LOL