runzwsissors Loc: Calhoun, GA

I just wanted to give your statement a little support, for those who think money is taken from the poor to give to the dirty rich, and do not understand the basics of business.

First of all, corporations provide us with goods and services that we could never get by ourselves. Everything from baby food to cruise missles comes from corporations. They employ millions of Americans and are owned mostly by the middle class, who just wish to take their earnings/savings and make it a little bigger so that they can retire. If there is not a profit, then why risk your hard earned money? A business needs to profit to provide these jobs, goods and services. When a cost of providing them increases, then the cost of buying them must also increase in order to maintain this profit. When you raise taxes, you lower profit margins and the price for goods and services must increase to compensate or the business will close down, no longer employing people or providing you with their goods or service. This is called cost shifting and it is prevalent in EVERY business in the world. The same happens when you increase the cost of goods by increasing labor costs. The company passes the loss on to the consumer, and that is as simple as it gets.



I feel the same way, as nothing would get done which is good. The reason for earmarks, is so you can sway support for the bill by offering something unrelated that is important to those votes (issues which also would never get passed without being an earmark). This is the system of compromise and facilitates "progress".



What kind of return on investment do those untaxed bonds carry?

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

Reply to runzwsissors:

One has to look at the macro view when looking at this.

If you make a product it would be nice if there was money out there to buy it Seeing as how its okay for the owners to take all the money they want out first this leaves the pie smaller for the poor to buy the product. You want small government So it would seem that the government would mot be spending much to buy your product.

Now with your market much smaller.

Now you do remember that those that labor are to be paid last. Owners first workers last. Owners with much workers with what ever is left over.
Is that how you see the big picture?

Just what do you propose to do with poor people. It would help if you had a good reason for what should be done.
Remember the bit about life, liberty & the persuit of happiness.

So you may have a product to sell. But in a smaller market with less money & fewer buyers.

Remember we are talking On the nation wide issue.

Voice of Reason Loc: Earth

...and to expand a little more, as to what you said about corporations supplying us. I think it would be a good idea for everybody reading this to take a look around your home and ask yourself how much of what is in it could you produce yourself, from scratch. The answer is very little. From something as simple as concrete (do you know how to find limestone, crush it, and turn it into Portand Cement?) to anything metal (can you mine, refine and smelt metal?) to plastic (any idea how to make that?). Does anybody think they could make the integrated circuits that make the computer you're reading this with possible?

I am really tired of hearing about how evil the corporations, that supply us with all our modern miracles at affordable prices, are.

Flyinhoss Loc: Texas

"Owners first and workers last", is totally backwards! Owners are paid out of profits. Cost of goods, materials, supplies, overhead (rent, utilities, telephones, etc.) shipping, labor, commissions, taxes...are all paid first, then if anything is left the stockholders (owners) get a dividend for their investment in the business, which they also pay taxes on. I haven't made anything this year, but I still have to pay taxes on my commercial property and taxes on equiptment and inventory. It's pretty obvious that you never owned a small business, Brother Brown.

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

I find nothing wrong with your statement.

I am self employed. I set the prices I charge.

The issue as I see it is most small businesses have to depend on the general public for their source of money.

If the money that circulates in the general public is restricted
then small businesses have a harder time getting by.

Most of the money that circulates in the general public is money earned as wages.

If people were paid more, more money circulates in the general public.

But most of what I hear here is that, that is bad & more money going to the few is the way they wish it to be.

Now if you are part of the middle & wish to truly do better you have to ask your self will I have a better chance of getting money from the general public or from the big banks or who ever is putting most of the money in their pockets?

If some one or as I like to say is down on the street has more is that is better for me that some fat cat getting fatter?

It is not about some having more than others. It is about every one having a fair chance to get a piece of the pie.

I know of no simpler way of putting it. Our security is dependent on the security of those around us.

I view my self as being down on the street mixing with average people & the security of the man one the street is in the most part is if he has the money to meets his basic needs.

Flyinhoss Loc: Texas

I don't believe that you have a comprehensive understanding of Free Market principals, Mr. Brown. Each of us are only entitled to take from the pie, that % we contributed to the pie. Any area of investment that produces profits, will attract capital in direct proportion to the risk/reward ratio. These are natural laws, as dependable as The Law Of Gravity. You may think that you set your own prices, but it is the market (buyer) that sets the price. This axiom is easily proven in a Free Market. Milton Friedman's, FREE TO CHOOSE is an excellent book on economics and was featured in a video series on Public TV. Dr. Friedman received the Nobel Prize for his work.

runzwsissors Loc: Calhoun, GA

Also Floyd, the reason there is less money circulating is because of taxes. If the taxes (all taxes) are raised, the cost of producing goods increase and the price of goods and services increase as well. Imagine this scenario of a society without taxes:

Floyd works 40 hours a week for 10 bucks an hour. At the end of the week, he has 400 dollars to spend on goods and services that he feels he needs, and a little on wants. Those 400 dollars are now income of multiple businesses, who can pay their investors a portion of that money (I left out the cost of production to illustrate this point of diminishing money, as the money is still there, but given to other businesses for raw goods and employees for pay, ect). The investors now have 400 dollars to spend on what they want and need. This 400 dollars continues to circulate for infinity, even as Floyd continues to make money each week. Now, lets add a 10% tax to the equation.

Floyd still works 40 hours a week at 10 dollars an hour. At the end of the week, after taxes, he has 360 dollars to spend. That 360 dollars are now income to multiple companies, and after taxes, they have 326 dollars to give to their investors, which after their taxes, comes to 293 dollars to buy what they want. When this is spent, after taxes, the multiple businesses now have an income of 264 dollars to give to their investors.

You can see just how quickly that 400 dollars has become nothing. It is true that the taxes pay wages for and purchase items used by the government, but it is money that is mostly lost to the economy. What is even worse, is for a company to maintain its profit, it has to raise their cost of goods and services which means our 360 dollars can only buy less, because stuff costs more. This is how taxes strangle the economy. The higher the taxes, the faster that 400 dollars disappears and ceases to circulate, and the higher the price of everything.

If you really want to get the economy going, Floyd, we could lower the standard of sulfur content in our gasoline back to the levels in the early 90s so that it is 4 times cheaper to refine our fuel, which will drive the price of gasoline down, which is also a cost account for every product and service in existence. That and lower the taxes, which would make money cycle faster, and bring up investor confidence, making many more jobs.

Flyinhoss Loc: Texas

Well done, Mr.Sissorhands! Your explanation was easier to follow. Mine get fragmented, as my thoughts are a paragraph ahead of my typing speed. I enjoy your posts and your logo is a hoot!

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

Yes taxes play a part. Banks want to have apart in every transaction.

If you wish to be rich you find a way to have money pass through your hands. Then you find ways to keep some of it.
Then find ways to keep more of it.

it takes money to do all most every thing today. Even the water we use is now a profit center.

About all we as individuals can do is try to be wiser in how we spend what we have.

As long as we are so divided in how we look at things there is little hope for things to get better.

DIVIDE & CONQUER

If you wish to control a nation you divide the people are are all ways in disagreement. Then you do what ever you want. The country is yours. While the people argue over issues they pay little attention to what the do in your best interest.

I can only say as to what I see & hear.
There are those that don't want some people in their world.

I would like to see us all get along in my world.
Could we find a way for at least more of us to get along.

At least those of us who think of our self as being in the middle?

Flyinhoss Loc: Texas

I can only speak for myself, Floyd... I am in favor of getting the government out of the marketplace, out of the welfare and charity business, as well as, out of running our educational systems from Washington, DC. Their job is to protect our country from foreign invasion, protect us from each other and regulate Interstate Commerce and damn little else. Hardship cases are better dealt with on a local and state basis, as is education. Shrink the federal bloated government to what it was set-up and intended to do and shrink our tax burdens, which allows growth and economic expansion, creating prosperity and greater opportunity for all. Local churches could offer daycare for working moms and when the government stops rewarding non-producers and penalizing (taxing) producers our society will prosper.
Apply your moral compass to the problems you see. Taking from one group against their will and giving to another, is immoral, creates resentment of the former and growing dependance of the latter.(Socialism) This is a formula for the disaster you see occurring, before your eyes, today. It started over a hundred years, ago and it won't go away with Obama. Our country needs a complete restoration.

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

Speaking of taking just where is the wealth ending up?
America is doomed if it don't get it's act together soon.

We both see that but we don't see eye to eye. And that dear soul is why the pockets of the few will keep getting fuller & fuller.

I just feel it so hopeless that I can't find hope in things getting better. When the truths you hold so dear have become over done & dragging the system down.
The American Dream has become true for fewer & fewer as more & more wealth goes in fewer & fewer pockets.

I just do not drink of that kool-aid being offered by the people you hold dear.

The American Dream kool-aid has been over sold, but many still have their faith & will not give up their kool-aid.

I guess that if you lips can keep kissing the right behinds you may keep getting crumbs. But just how good can those crumbs taste after where your lips have been. But you my poor soul are living in dream world & it is not the American Dream. Unless it has been down sized.

Flyinhoss Loc: Texas

You're puttin' me on, right? I cannot comprehend a mind so shallow, that could put forth such gibberish, except in jest. You're either a retarded 12 year old, or a wannabe comic with a demented sense of humor. Producers create wealth and non-producers steal wealth. Which catagory do you aspire to, Mr. Brown-nose?

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

Produce all you want but if the there is no one to give you something for what you make what you do you gain?

Oh I know what is a good way to make money. Just sell it to the government. The government that you don't want to be in the market.

You can build things that kill people. There is always a good market for that.

Have some extra food you have grown? The poor don't have the money to buy it from you? Get the government to buy it. They will buy it so you can get rich.

What is the government to do with that food?
Destroy it or give it to the poor?

Oops you don't want the government to help those people.

Another idea instead of you growing things only to be destroyed why don't the government pay you not to grow things? Or have you never heard of that they have done this.

The sad thing is some how these things are happening.
As long as your pockets get filled what do you care.
Your are producing and you deserve to be rich.

Flyinhoss Loc: Texas

I suggested a book for you, assuming you could read, but after reading your replies, I have determined that I am wasting my time with you, as there are none so blind, as those that refuse to see.

Flyinhoss Loc: Texas