mcmlx

Whoa, GRB777. Who are you responding to?
MCMLX

CowboyMilt

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

May I suggest -
You have conflated two issues with one solution.

While it is true, a new Human begins with conception, it is not true that life begins with conception.

The Abortion issue does not revolve around Abortion per se, anymore than it revolves around adultry, or Birth Control, per se. It revolves around the issue of determining at what point life begins in the womb.

Once the issue is properly identified, and resolved, the other issues will fall into their natural niches. To resolve the issue, then, let us take a look at life as it is born into the world.

The new baby, most of the time, is said to be "alive," depending upon various and sundry "vital- signs." Yet, we do not conclude that the baby "became" alive at the moment of birth. So I think we can agree, life begins before the moment of birth.

DEFINE "LIFE"
If the very definition of "life" involves the ability to point precisely to some perceived "spark," at which time an embryo becomes viable, or "alive," then I'm afraid the debate will continue to rage unabated. But I really believe we can do better than that in our approach to such an important issue.

The first question I would raise, is a very simple one. Was the egg alive, or dead, at the precise moment it was joined by the sperm? If it was dead, how could it then become a zygote, and grow to an embryo?

The simple answer to this question, then, is, the egg was alive. Did the mother originate life in the egg at the precise moment she passed it from the ovary to the Fallopian chamber to begin its cycle, or was the egg alive when it was first produced into the cycle of the system?

GENERATING LIFE
The second question pertains to the sperm. Did the male give it life at the precise moment it left his testicle, to begin its journey in the cycle, or was the sperm alive while it resided in the male, awaiting the ejaculation process?

Now, we know that some Males are sterile, and cannot beget children. I do not address that issue here. And some Females cannot bear children. I do not address that issue, in this offering. The only issue I address is that of identifying the precise moment of the beginning of definable "life" in "the cycle of life."

LIFE IS PASSED ON, NOT RESTARTED
I could get into a discussion of the effect of "puberty" upon the young potential Father, and Mother, but it would prove to be futile, because there have been no definitive scientific studies published, to my knowledge, pertaining to the moment "life" is passed to the egg and the sperm, and how it is effected by Puberty. So, let's move on.

If the child is alive prior to puberty, than Life MUST reside in the body of the child, in order to mature in the adult. Where did it come from? Did the potential parent go to the doctor for a "progeny" shot. No! Is there a vaccine which passes life into the system. Yes! But not within the cycle in question.

Now, if life can be determined to be within the child, and passes to the adult by maturation, prior to mating; and in the child, prior to maturation, and prior to puberty, from where did it come? Vitamins in the food, perhaps? No! Minerals? No! I don't believe it can be shown to be dietary in nature; Though diet may very well play a part in other aspects of the cycle of life, and passing it on.

SOURCE OF LIFE
The answer is simple, and leaves nothing to debate. "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a "living" soul." Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)

THE COMMAND TO PASS ON LIFE TO ANOTHER GENERATION;
"...AND GOD SAID unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth..." Genesis 1:28 (King James Version)

After God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful, and multiply, and after man was cast from the garden, God revealed to them a secret, which still has men debating to this day. He told them where "life" was located in the cycle of life and death.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood:...

Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for THE LIFE OF ALL FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Deut 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for THE BLOOD IS THE LIFE the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

"LIFE" PROCCESS
And so GOD TELLS US that the process by which "life" is passed to the egg is accomplished when the egg attatches itself to the wall of the uterus, and blood vessels are formed, by which life continues to be nourished in the egg, in the zygote, in the embryo, in the baby, in the Birth canal, In the passage of birth, and after the umbilical cord is cut, life continues in the new-born. It did not originate in any step of the cycle. It was passed from Parent to child, all the way back to ts origin..... in the Garden.

Some folks claim "My body is mine, I have the right to abort if I want to." To which I will always respond "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and Ye are NOT your own? For ye are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit which are God's." [1 Cor 6:19-20]

Life in the womb began in the Garden with Adam and Eve, and has not been interrupted or changed by proclamation, by science, by Priestly incantation, or by any machination of man, of which I am aware, so when one of the debaters can show me someone who came into this world separate and apart from the cycle of life, as herein described, I shall re-evaluate my conclusion.

"Test-tube" babies do not change the cycle, for they began within its purview and were simply transported elswewhere to tintillate the minds of scientists that want to play like they are gods in their own right.

It matters not how science plays with what God has provided, they still must begin with that provision. And it was provided in the garden to Adam and to Eve, and has come uninterrupted to you and to me.

© 1997 by Theophilus (Theo) Book

THUNDERBOLT

I have seen news reports that a pregnant women is shot
and killed. The shooter is charged with 2 murders. How can that be? OH! maybe that means a human was inside her.

GRB777

Have you bothered to read the discussion? I'm replying to those who compare tumors to humans as if that is relevant.

Stop wasting time attacking me. Refute what I wrote .You can't, so you attack. This is predictable.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

That is so sad! Have you any idea how many folks cry when they read accounts of young life thrown away by adults who either cannot provide for, or because of ignorance cannot relate to, their own unwanted progeny?

There are literally millions of folks who would gladly offer a home, with all that implies, to the unwanted babes now being murdered at an alarming rate.

But do you know, that our caring, matters not to those who are ignorant of that simple fact? And how could they possibly know?

They cannot place them for adoption for various and sundry reasons; and many of the adoption sources are in the business strictly for money, often charging tens of thousands of dollars for placing a new-born in a home.

There are just way too many problems from both sides of the equation, for donors to get with adopters, including identity issues; i.e., suppose an infant is adopted, loved, and raised for some time, only to have the birth mother show up having changed her mind?

Or the begettal Father wants a say in the life of the child, and had no opportunity to express that desire because he was never notified of the pending new life.

Then there is the privacy issue of shame-

Often contact is not even sought because of shame placed upon a young mother-to-be because she has become entangled in something way beyond her ability to function successfully, and constant reminders by unthoughtful or ignorant Grandparents who think it is "adult" to behave in such fashion.

And sometimes it is even issues of a religious variety, when the self-satisfied "saved" think they are doing God a righteous service by castigating "sin" whenever and where ever they can find it.

I weep for them all. For they all are beyond helping themselves to rise above this situation that involves so much hurt, so often given in retaliation, or ignorance.

And the New-born suffers most. That is, in those rare cases in which the new-born is allowed so to become. Otherwise, a short instant of unbelievable violation of new life, and that new-born becomes "oops!" and fades into oblivion among Men, but is caught up into companionship with the unborn in God's teary embrace.

rolse

Since nearly all of you have formed opinions based entirely on emotion that has its foundation in whatever religious dogma that you have embraced, logic or sense is never going to be persuasive.

The issue that underlies the entire pro or anti abortion arguments has been resolved, even for the most ardent devotees of religious faith, for thousands of years. As far as can be determined, it has been resolved for as long as there have been people. Universally, everywhere in the world, regardless of predominant religious faith, our lives are determined to have begun when we are separated alive from our mothers.

We, as humans, are for the most part unable to comprehend the infinite. Everything we are familiar with has a beginning and an end. The beginning, to be comprehensible, must be at a specific date. If possible, it must be a specific date and time. We further divide the span of time between beginning and end into periods less specific, but recognizable and common to all, like infancy, childhood, teenaged, adult, middle aged and old age or senior. For those who survive to birth, we refer to the period starting whenever conception occurred until birth as the gestation period.

It is a clearly established medical fact that nowhere near all conceptions survive to implant in the womb, even when no effort is made to intervene. Further, even absent intervention, a certain percentage (which can be influenced to some degree by the quality of medical care available) of fetus do not survive. These facts have been universally recognized for thousands of years all over the world and resulted in the common sense determination that the only way to be certain that a new viable human being has been added to the world's population is to have a live birth.

The results of thinking otherwise can produce only absurdities. The first absurdity causes no particular problem, but is the result of carrying the premise of being a human being at conception to its logical conclusion. That conclusion being that every woman having unprotected sex in an effort to conceive a child is a serial killer. The second is far, far more problematic when law and government are introduced as intervenors in the matter. This has been very evident in the past; particularly in areas where government is prone to be controlled as a theocracy. Many women, unfortunate enough to have a miscarriage, or spontaneous abortion, were subjected to criminal prosecution and even convicted by prosecutors and juries more concerned with religious zeal than evidence.

In the case of abortion law, the supreme court was correct. Neither the government nor anyone else, other than the woman and, if married, the father have any business being involved. It is not a proper function of government to attempt to legislate morality or to attempt to suppress the wisdom of the ages to do so by deception to appease non-interested parties.

Radiance3

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Rolse with your liberal brain, I don't care how many abortions your liberal women make. They can mutilate their bodies as far as I am concerned. But they must not require the taxpayers to pay for their abortions, pills to melt their fetuses. When they get sick due to mutilating their bodies, they must NOT require taxpayers to fund their medical care. It is their bodies as they claimed, therefore, it is also their responsibilities to pay for their MEDICAL COSTS.

It is their bodies as they all shout on the streets of the USA, and therefore take responsibilities of your bodies and financial costs how you demand and care for your own body.

Go ahead liberal women mutilate your bodies, they are all yours. Don't require me to pay for your sexual activities with all kinds of animalistic behavior.

As far as I am concerned, good riddance to all of those body abusers. I think you are all infected with several kinds of sexual diseases.

BOHICA

The article at the beginning of this thread. You did read it, right? It is a medical fact that life begins at conception. It doesn't matter how people try to rationalize it...It can't live without it's mother, so it's not really alive...It's not self aware, so it's not really murder...Some have even labeled it a tumor! They go on and on about how it's not really a person, yet they will raise holy hell if someone disturbs a birds nest. Give me a break!

BOHICA

JW wrote: "Once the baby is born, pro-lifers pat themselves on the back and walk away with no concern for the child. It is born, now it's left to a mother that didn't want it, a father that won't acknowledge it or willingly support it and years of deprivation and abuse only to wind up dead on a street corner or worse, the killer on the street corner."

And you accuse me of being emotional? You accuse Conservatives of not caring, when it is a proven fact that we are more generous with our donations to charity than liberals. You try to paint us as uncaring monsters, who would abandon millions of new born babies to a living hell. Take that crap somewhere else. No one is buying it. We know who the real monsters are. They have murdered almost 50 million babies over the lase few decades.

BOHICA

And now they want post birth abortions! They are sick and evil monsters!

BOHICA

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

BOHICA

AMEN!

BOHICA

Sorry, if someone has mentioned this already, but it really helps if you use the quote/reply button when responding to someone. it will save a lot of confusion.

Radiance3

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Women who aborts babies at their pleasures are stinky, and have contagious diseases. Get away from me liberal women! You are killing human being!