Ukraine. Stay out of it (Page 2): I look at it as a promise is a promise. Putin wants to get what he wants without a war. The US wants to stop him without a war. So far Putin has shown...

son of witless

Old Thinker wrote:

you could be right but shouldn't we wait for the president of Ukraine to say what he wants... he seems to think Biden is in a panic....

I look at it as a promise is a promise. Putin wants to get what he wants without a war. The US wants to stop him without a war. So far Putin has shown himself to be a much better poker player than any American President. I think it is telling how Putin only tried this kind of crap when against Ukraine when Democrats were in the Presidency.

Obama and now Biden do not have to go to war to stop Putin. They can send money and weapons to Ukraine, and do everything in their power to bolster it's economy. The stronger Ukraine is the bigger the bloody nose Russia would get if it invades. They would still win, but the cost in rubles and Russian casualties is something Putin does not want.

The same thing with China and Taiwan. We can make a Chinese invasion too costly for them.

Russia and China are good at getting what they want by intimidation. It is in our interest. not to allow them to succeed. In Asia Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, are afraid of Chinese expansion and would support us if we will only lead. In Eastern Europe Poland, Finland, and others do not want to see Putin put the Soviet Union back together again.

The most brain dead move any American President ever made was when Obama cancelled Bush's missile shield over Poland. He got zero for that. I hate stupidity.

Alber

LogicallyRight wrote:

The situation in Ukraine is reaching dangerous levels, because President Biden doesn't know when to shut up and stop with all of his threats. Vladimir Putin does not want to invade Ukraine, or he would have done so months ago, while President Biden was messing up his withdrawal in Afghanistan. What incentive would Putin have for waiting and letting the West build up military forces and alliances against him. You might not like Putin, but he isn't stupid.

What is unreasonable with what Putin wants. Hard treaty bound guarantees that NATO stays out of Ukraine and makes no further advances east towards encircling Russia to their west. This argument that Biden uses that NATO is open to anyone, borders on childish.

NATO is the former enemy of the USSR, a now defunct group of nations that Russia led. We beat then in the so called Cold War. When we beat Japan, we embraced them as friends and rebuilt them. When we beat Germany, we embraced them as friends and rebuilt them. But we continue to treat Russia as enemies. This is the same Russia that ferried our astronauts to the Space Station when we killed our own program. They can be great friends, but all NATO seems to want to do is encircle them. There is no need for this.

Consider this. In the early 60s, at the height of the cold war, the USSR moved missiles into Cuba. President Kennedy stood up to them and they were removed. How is this any different from a Russian perspective, then what NATO is doing now? No outside hostile forces on our borders.

Russia has been invaded by Europe in the recent past. Think Napoleon, Hitler. Millions of Russians died and mass destruction. They have valid reasons to not trust NATO. And NATO enforces that distrust with its interventions since the end of the Cold War.

If NATO moves into Ukraine, Russia will end up keeping over a hundred thousand troops on that same border forever more. NATO will then do the same, and it will start looking like the 38th Parallel in Korea. Missiles and radar stations within hundreds of miles of Moscow. This is not peace. Will Russia go back to putting milliles in Cuba and maybe Venezuela.

Right now, Ukraine is a nice buffer between two potential enemies that should be working to be friends. Ukraine meanwhile, should embrace the position, playing both sides for economic prosperity and achieve what it can for ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians within its borders. Free trade, East and West.

We don't want a real all out shooting war with Russia. Millions could die, massive destruction and depending on how wide the battles escalate, it could lead to a loosing side deciding to use nuclear weapons. And they have more then we do and that could lead to the end of the world.

Another side point to consider. We are in no position to fight this war with Russia. We already are at war and loosing along our southern border. Our President has not only stopped on going defenses, he has invited the enemy in to our country. This enemy is currently a cabal of Cartels stationed in Mexico. They are pushing this invasion that includes thieves, murders, drug dealers, sex traffickers and even known unvaccinated Covid positive individuals. Our president is secretly settling these invaders all over America, in secret cells, without consent of the various states and living on welfare of hard working Americans. And they will be voting if the President gets his voting rights bill passed. There is no mechanizations to stop them. A weakened America can't successfully fight a strong Russia.

I'm an American and I might someday have to support America as it fights these battles. If our President is wrong, as I believe he is, all Americans need to stand up and tell him to shut up, and force him to stay out of Ukraine.

The situation in Ukraine is reaching dangerous lev... (show quote)

The Russians are good chess players, it seems that we Americans only know how to play checkers. We had a good chess player Bobby Fisher but no more.
Politics is a lot like chess and poor Biden and his advisers aren't even good checkers players.
We do not learn from the lessons of history; and I remember again what happened in the case of Cuba.
I remember a preacher who said: "Punishment lies in sin" and that was what happened to the Democratic administration of Kennedy in October 1962, with the Missile Crisis, for not having respected the commitment made with the anti-communist Cubans who landed at the Bay of Pigs in April 1961 to end the Castro regime.
If this administration was truly interested in the well-being of the US, it would seize the opportunity offered to correct old mistakes and I agree with you that Putin does not want to invade Ukraine, as well as that this country would be a good buffer between two potential enemies, that should be working to be friends and face the real danger facing the world which is Chinese fascism.
Putin's threats to put the missiles back in Cuba and Venezuela give rise to take action on these countries. We must put into execution the tactic used by the Soviet Union, which in order to withdraw the missiles that threatened us in Cuba, demanded that it be guaranteed that Cuba would not be invaded, leaving Castro a free hand to destabilize the American hemisphere by all possible means.
Now the situation is reversed and we are the ones threatening Russia with admitting Ukraine to NATO and we must make the same proposal that the Soviets did to withdraw their missiles. We will not admit Ukraine to NATO and Russia will not invade it, returning to the status quo that existed before the invasion of Crimea, in order to respect the integrity of Ukraine, country which will benefit from being able to negotiate, as you say, both with Russia and with the rest of Europe and the USA, without the need for excessive military spending.
Of course, we must offer Putin a proposal that he cannot refuse, like those that Don Corleone used to make; and for this, it is necessary to make a show of force and at the same time propose talks through diplomatic channels. Not as was done in the case of Afghanistan, where a show of force had to be made before the withdrawal and if the established government had no chance of maintaining power, not a single nail left there, if it served to wage war.
If what Putin wants is the security of Russia, we must guarantee it, without handing over Ukraine, because we cannot do what was done with Cuba either.
Through diplomacy, it is possible to obtain an improvement in relations with Russia, which would distance it from its relationship with China and the solution of the main problems that exist in America with countries such as Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua, taking care in the prosperity of our neighbors to the South, so that they do not need to be sending us illegal immigrants.
I agree with you that the Democrats are using the Machiavellian policy of creating incidents abroad to cover up their failures and bad actions in their politics at home, which will possibly lead to their defeat in the next elections.

Army

https://www.fromrome.info/2022/01/28/the-nwo-and-deathswabs-role-in-that-a-cautionary-speculation/

saltwind 78 Loc: Murrells Inlet, South Carolina

LogicallyRight wrote:

The situation in Ukraine is reaching dangerous levels, because President Biden doesn't know when to shut up and stop with all of his threats. Vladimir Putin does not want to invade Ukraine, or he would have done so months ago, while President Biden was messing up his withdrawal in Afghanistan. What incentive would Putin have for waiting and letting the West build up military forces and alliances against him. You might not like Putin, but he isn't stupid.

What is unreasonable with what Putin wants. Hard treaty bound guarantees that NATO stays out of Ukraine and makes no further advances east towards encircling Russia to their west. This argument that Biden uses that NATO is open to anyone, borders on childish.

NATO is the former enemy of the USSR, a now defunct group of nations that Russia led. We beat then in the so called Cold War. When we beat Japan, we embraced them as friends and rebuilt them. When we beat Germany, we embraced them as friends and rebuilt them. But we continue to treat Russia as enemies. This is the same Russia that ferried our astronauts to the Space Station when we killed our own program. They can be great friends, but all NATO seems to want to do is encircle them. There is no need for this.

Consider this. In the early 60s, at the height of the cold war, the USSR moved missiles into Cuba. President Kennedy stood up to them and they were removed. How is this any different from a Russian perspective, then what NATO is doing now? No outside hostile forces on our borders.

Russia has been invaded by Europe in the recent past. Think Napoleon, Hitler. Millions of Russians died and mass destruction. They have valid reasons to not trust NATO. And NATO enforces that distrust with its interventions since the end of the Cold War.

If NATO moves into Ukraine, Russia will end up keeping over a hundred thousand troops on that same border forever more. NATO will then do the same, and it will start looking like the 38th Parallel in Korea. Missiles and radar stations within hundreds of miles of Moscow. This is not peace. Will Russia go back to putting milliles in Cuba and maybe Venezuela.

Right now, Ukraine is a nice buffer between two potential enemies that should be working to be friends. Ukraine meanwhile, should embrace the position, playing both sides for economic prosperity and achieve what it can for ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians within its borders. Free trade, East and West.

We don't want a real all out shooting war with Russia. Millions could die, massive destruction and depending on how wide the battles escalate, it could lead to a loosing side deciding to use nuclear weapons. And they have more then we do and that could lead to the end of the world.

Another side point to consider. We are in no position to fight this war with Russia. We already are at war and loosing along our southern border. Our President has not only stopped on going defenses, he has invited the enemy in to our country. This enemy is currently a cabal of Cartels stationed in Mexico. They are pushing this invasion that includes thieves, murders, drug dealers, sex traffickers and even known unvaccinated Covid positive individuals. Our president is secretly settling these invaders all over America, in secret cells, without consent of the various states and living on welfare of hard working Americans. And they will be voting if the President gets his voting rights bill passed. There is no mechanizations to stop them. A weakened America can't successfully fight a strong Russia.

I'm an American and I might someday have to support America as it fights these battles. If our President is wrong, as I believe he is, all Americans need to stand up and tell him to shut up, and force him to stay out of Ukraine.

The situation in Ukraine is reaching dangerous lev... (show quote)

I didn't realize that we have a war with Mexico. I thought that ended before the Civil War. One of the most important lessons to be learned from World War Two concerned the policy of appeasement. France and Great Britain allowed nazi Germany to invade and take over Austria and Czechoslovakia, to avoid war. All that did was convince Hitler that the West would never stand up to him, and he could further invade Poland. The only way to stop Russias aggressive moves in Eastern Europe is to stand up to him. We never threatened war, just sanctions. Russia is not the great power it once was. Its economy is fragile and small compared to the Nato countries, and it has to know that there is a terrible price to pay for invading independent countries.

guzzimaestro

saltwind 78 wrote:

I didn't realize that we have a war with Mexico. I... (show quote)

We're at war with the Mexican cartels, and we're losing. They're causing a lot more damage to our country than putin

Army

guzzimaestro wrote:

We're at war with the Mexican cartels, and we're losing. They're causing a lot more damage to our country than putin

Yes & more now coming over the border

Alber

saltwind 78 wrote:

I didn't realize that we have a war with Mexico. I... (show quote)

I think that what LogicallyRight has written has nothing to do with a policy of appeasement and now you want us to learn from the Second World War, when on other occasions you have written the opposite, showing that you were not concerned about the Ribbentrop - Molotov pact, which could be copied today between China and Russia.
You have to remember when Mao told Nikita Khrushchev that we Americans were a "paper tiger" and Nikita replied that he (Mao) was right; but that it was necessary to take into consideration that this paper tiger had nuclear fangs.
Today in the case of Russia something similar happens; it's not a tiger, it's a bear with nuclear fangs.
On the other hand, the Commander in Chief that we have is not the best, because he depends on what his handlers determine. You just have to see what they did with the withdrawal from Afghanistan and nothing good can be expected from those who do such stupid things.

guzzimaestro

Alber wrote:

I think that what LogicallyRight has written has n... (show quote)

I was thinking that too. biden not competent to make these policy decisions (he never has been) but his handlers aren't any better,lol

son of witless

saltwind 78 wrote:

I didn't realize that we have a war with Mexico. I... (show quote)

With Biden allowing the gas pipeline into Germany, how are sanctions going to work ?

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

If he tries to allow that hook up and then put sanctions on using it, he will loose Germany.

This is all a no brainer. Keep NATO out of Ukraine and let the tensions between Ukraine and Russia, play out and die down, between them. Russis/Putin does not want to invade Ukraine and put up with that mess. It just wants a former enemy to quit expanding towards them and trying to encircle them on their west. They have that right. The West/Europe has invade them more in recent history then they have invaded west. And that last invasion west in WWII was just a matter of beating back an invasion from the West.

If this accelerates into full scale war, it is fully on biden's hands. And he will slip into full senility, and we will have harris leading us in WWIII. Can you actually see how ridiculous that all is.

Logically Right

guzzimaestro

LogicallyRight wrote:

If he tries to allow that hook up and then put san... (show quote)

That's the view expressed by political analyst KT Mcfarland in Real Clear Politics. Good article. Biden has allowed the Nordsream pipeline to go thru, he is not going to cut the flow of oil/natural gas to Europe. Any other sanctions they can inflict will have a minimal effect. Putin will keep troops on standby indefinitely, preventing NATO from establishing a base there. Meantime he will hope Ukraine has an internal coup, which would be to his benefit. He'll go off to the Olympics and enjoy himself while biden continues his hysterics

Antimarxist21

son of witless wrote:

I'm not sure, but I seem to remember a number of ... (show quote)

No, unfortunately you are right on that

Antimarxist21

LogicallyRight wrote:

I deliberately avoided the Dombass area of Ukraine... (show quote)

I don't think Putin will invade. He is a megalomaniac, a narcisst who wants the world's attention and now he has it, while Biden stumbles and fumbles his way through. Also, the Olympics start soon. I think he would have attacked already, at least I hope so. Communist China remains our most dangerous enemy.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

guzzimaestro wrote:

That's the view expressed by political analyst KT ... (show quote)

That's what I am thinking although I don't think he'll go as far west as Kiev, but you never know.

Army

Psalm 37

King James Version

37 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

4 Delight thyself also in the Lord: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the Lord upholdeth the righteous.

18 The Lord knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.

22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.

33 The Lord will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.