straightUp Loc: California

Yeah, I honestly didn't think the Holocaust reference would have been so difficult for people to get. Maybe if they took a little more effort to understand what I posted instead of jumping to the opportunity to slam me. lol


It's not - again... you missed the reference and therefore the context. Don't worry about it.


Please what? It's not like America doesn't have a history of ethnic cleansing. It's not like we can't hear the chatter from a rise of white nationalism. I'm not suggesting it will happen tomorrow, but I am suggesting that the entire Trumpian policy on immigration is riding on a wave of racial resentment.


So... the Dreamers are apparently less prone to crime than native-born Americans are. That's precisely what the statistic tells us and that's pretty much the point I am making.


Sure, we can all take wild guesses about causes and alternate realities, but read the title of this thread... The point of the original post is clearly resting on the bottom line, which is where I put my response.


You might want to take your own advise smarty-pants. That 10% in the title is a very close match to the .98% reported under a metric commonly called the "incarceration rate" and there really isn't any other source for connecting DACA recipients to crime... What Fox is showing you (inadvertently, I'm sure) is that you don't have to mention the name of the statistic to get data from it.

(Fox and "critical reading" - lol)


How the hell is that related to the difference between two incarceration rates? 'Care to explain that one?


Yeah smart-ass, I think everyone knows that. And we DO vote for the people we think will change the laws and guess what? We also TALK about the issues before we vote. You got a problem with that? Should we tell all those pro-lifers that abortion is legal so shut up about it until it's time to vote?

I dunno Canuckus Deploracus, it seems you try to be rational about things but maybe you get a little too eager to argue. Try slowing down a little. ;)

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Good advice at the end

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

No one missed your Holocaust reference...
I chose to ignore it...
Comparing border security to ethnic cleansing is demented logic...

And yes... America and just about every other nation in the world has a history of ethnic cleansing... People are funny (horrid) that way...
When was the last time America engaged in such action?
How does bringing up dead boogymen serve to inspire intelligent debate?

I disagree strongly that Trump's policies on immigration are in any way racially motivated...
But in the spirit of debate I am willing to consider any evidence that you can present to support the premise...

The title of the post is deceptive...
Unfortunately the Dreamers being less prone to crime in no way absolves them of the crime of being in the US illegally...
The title simply points out that not all DACA recipients are innocent angels... As though it should matter...

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other concerning the term "incarcerated"... I associate it only with those who have been convicted of a crime... Not with those who have been accused and arrested... FOX (which I agree with you about) only mentioned Dreamers being arrested... Nothing about incarceration.. Perhaps they got their figures from this metricyou mentioned... But they don't use the term incarceration...

From the article:
"The DHS statistics do not indicate how many of the arrested immigrants were convicted of crimes, nor do they indicate whether charges were reduced or dropped. They also do not indicate how many arrested DACA recipients were deported as the result of a conviction."

The differences between the incarceration rates don't matter... Americans could be 10 times more prone to crime than Dreamers and they would still be entitled to live in America... Dreamers could literally commit 0% of crimes and still have no right to live in America...

Let's talk about the issue... I think it's an important one... And if you've followed the thread you know that I believe the Dreamers are in a bad situation that isn't their fault.. And that I believe they should have a pathway to citizenship...

Nobody is telling you to shut up...
I am responding to your post...

What would your solution be that would:
1. Resolve the current Dreamer situation.
2. Address future situations of this type.
3. Support border security and curtail illegal immigration.

(I am off to bed in a few minutes... May not respond right away..)

Seth

Yet... You guys repeatedly ignore the inconvenient stuff, like "illegal."

No matter how much you throw in that we're "a nation of immigrants," where is the mention that you defend blatant violations of federal law?

When someone sneaks across our border he or she is here illegally.

As far as DACA goes, notice how Obama and the Democrats never followed up on it -- instead, it was left to Trump. This is another case of the Democrats playing politics games, setting the Republicans up to have to be "the heels."

Meanwhile, it's all politics to the Dems; they don't give a rat's hindquarters about those people, like everyone else the Democrats purport to "champion," be it blacks, LGBTQ, "undocumented" immigrants, etc, they are just pieces of meat to be used in Democrats' political agendas.

You know it, I know it, we all know it.

straightUp Loc: California

Oh... okay.


No its not, you're just associating ethnic cleansing with the methods commonly portrayed in the media, such as genocide. Other methods have been used for keeping cultures "clean", such as forced migrations and walls.


By putting things into context, Canuckus Deploracus.


There's a difference between noticing the effects of policy and waiting for someone to actually state the obvious. You may as well be that guy on the bus that's being driven down a cliff that says, "It's okay! The driver didn't actually SAY he was going to kill us!"

Actually in your case, I think you're just ignoring the obvious that HAS been stated, such as when Trump said we want people from Norway not POS countries. And before you try defending that BS with the excuse that that he was referring to well-educated people with skills, there is no reason to use ethnic or even national references to do so. He could have just said, we want "smart people".

Our laws should be filtering out the criminals not stereotypes... unless, you're a racist and you're happy with the results of the "not racist" policy.


I find it quite revealing.


Well that problem with that statement is that the law isn't actually as clear as that. You see, there is no law that actually says a person can't "be" here. This may seem like a moot point because it *IS* illegal to cross the border and there is no way anyone can "be" here without crossing the border, unless they were born here, right? However, DREAMers are specifically those people who crossed the border when they were children and according to our laws a child that does not understand the crime can't be guilty of committing it. That is actually a valid legal defense argument. The law I mention here is an adaption from the same Common Law that Canada and many other nations have also adopted. It's a law that goes back for centuries that reflects the humanity we have as a species toward the innocence of our children. It can be described as a measure of human decency.

When this puzzle was brought to Obama's attention he knew this had to be resolved somehow and so he asked Congress to pass a law for his administration to follow. Congress refused to move on the issue and so Obama issued an EO to defer executive action until Congress gets their sh*t together to tell him what to do. It was called the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA.

The problem is that it would be very difficult to pass a law to solve that problem without interfering with what a lot of Republicans want; a supply of "illegal" people. You can do a lot to people who are desperate for money and can't go to the law for protection.

Since then Republicans have been in a position to sit on the issue, meanwhile Trump is trying to take that protection away from the people who have lived here almost all their lives, went to school, got jobs, and started families, many of them had children here and now Trump (and I guess, you) want to rip these families apart.


Exactly... "As though it should matter" - but it doesn't. So why did Fox make a headline out of it, why did ProudRepublican feel compelled to post it?


No one is incarcerated without being arrested. So technically, they can say "arrested" to cover the demographic.


I understand your point but the statement you quoted doesn't say they were NOT incarcerated, so don't assume information that isn't there Also, the incarceration rate is only different from the rate Fox mentions by two-thousandths of a point.


Some would say that perspective doesn't matter. America is a place where the law reflects the will of the people, not the other way around. It's also a place where people have the freedom to express their will and to challenge the laws and to change them through the democratic process.

It's common for the people supporting Trump's immigration policies to resort to stating federal laws as if they come from God Himself and the people are powerless to do anything about it. As if it's the end of the argument. It's not. Our immigration laws have always been immoral.


You mean... right now? LOL


I've noticed.


Good questions. One answer.

Change the law so that entry is assessed on an individual basis and only those who can actually be identified as a threat are not permitted. This would entail medical assessments for communicable diseases and criminal records.

I know the knee-jerk response to this would be that we would let too many people in, but I challenge anyone's basis for saying this. As much as some people want to think they are coming here because our country is so awesome, the reality is most of them only come here thinking they can get work or escape violence. If there are too many of them, the demand for cheap labor will drop and they will look elsewhere.

So we can let the market regulate immigration (since it's a much stronger force than Border Security is anyway) Then we can divert government resources to more important things... so long as everyone can get over their prejudices.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Liked this...

At work... But will respond...

I do ask that you go through the first few pages of this thread... I think you'll have a better understanding of my stance on the dreamers...

Cheers

straightUp Loc: California

'Had a look... and yes, I think I have a better understanding on your stance now. Thanks for the patience.

A couple of things...

1. You said: "And I think kind of shows how piss poorly DACA was put together in the first place..."
My question is how?

2. You said: "they are not guilty of their parents' crime..."
I agree, 100%

3. You said: "DACA is a bad situation all around..."
As far as I can tell, DACA is a reaction to a bad situation... one that defers action until that bad situation can be fixed... 'kinda like telling everyone to stop shooting until we can turn the lights on. Obama was 100% when he said it's up to Congress to fix the problem because you need to write laws to fix it and the President is not supposed to write laws, Congress is. The president's job is to execute the laws. (he CAN veto them, but he can't write them). Maybe you already know this - of so, let me know what I'm missing.

4. You said: "I believe the children are victims of a system that beguiled them - I'm glad the system is being fixed...."
I agree the "children" are victims of a system... ('Not so sure they were beguiled by it, but certainly victimized by it) But I'm trying to imagine how you think it's currently being fixed. Fill me in.

5. You suggested that someone was equating the breaking of "man-made laws" with "sinning" - I'm assuming that you are pointing that man-made laws are not divine laws. It's good to see someone else bring this up.