Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

Slam dunk!!!

debeda

Thanks, Byron.

Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

Actually thank you!

straightUp Loc: California

The ability to memorize and recite "taught data" and quotes has absolutely nothing to do with being an intellectual. A complete moron can have an excellent memory and recite all kinds of things without understanding what any of it means.


And THAT is also the true measure of an intellectual.

I'll give you the example of a computer. The one thing that computers have always done better than any human is memory and recall. There is a saying in computer science... "garbage in, garbage out" which is an ode to the flawless ability of a computer to "memorize and recite taught data".

And yet, we never thought to call them intellectuals.

That's because they were never able to "comprehend and assess data to extrapolate more comprehensive knowledge" which happens to be the entire point of very recent efforts such as Machine Learning and Data Mining to get computers to that level, a work in progress, to create machines with intellect.

debeda

Your first response was the point I was trying to get across So glad you agree

Seth

I agree as well.

The problem with following "intellectuals," as with many PhDs, is that there can be a world of difference between high intellect or long immersion in books/studies and common sense or knowledge of human nature.

Karl Marx, for instance...

debeda

Straight up said it pretty well in a response to me "a complete moron can have an excellent memory and recite all kinds of things without any idea what it means."

debeda

Yep

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

You're not as smart as you claim to be. Everyone, even retards, idiots and psychotics, engage the intellect to some degree or other. No one could survive long without it. But the human intellect can be shaky ground without the benefits of self-awareness, intelligence and wisdom.

Johnson was not referring to the human intellect per se. He was addressing the philosophy of Intellectualism which is the theory that knowledge is wholly or mainly derived from pure reason and rationalism, devoid of emotions. The Intellectuals who embrace this philosophy corrupt or even destroy the balance between the intellect and the emotions which is critical to human survival. Without a balance between mind and heart, a human then becomes an ultra-conformist, irrational in thought and action they are unable to think for themselves.

For intellectuals, far from being highly individualistic and non-conformist people, follow certain regular patterns of behaviour. Taken as a group, they are often ultra-conformist within the circles formed by those whose approval they seek and value. That is what makes them, en masse, so dangerous, for it enables them to create climates of opinion and prevailing orthodoxies, which themselves often generate irrational and destructive courses of action. Above all, we must at all times remember what intellectuals habitually forget: that people matter more than concepts and must come first. The worst of all despotisms is the heartless tyranny of ideas.

straightUp Loc: California

:) - getting a little subjective are we?

I do get the point you're making but you probably know that can be applied to a LOT of different groups. You can't tell me there aren't people out there trying to debunk the "intellectuals" on the basis of their own intellect. Just look at Intelligent Design, this incredible vault into science by the science-prosecutors themselves.

Anyway, the point I want to make is what I like to call the lap effect. When I used to run track in school, I remember this guy coming up behind me and I was struggling to stay in front. He asked... "How many laps?" I said.. "2" he said.. "3".

The same thing could be happening with our intelligence at any level and no one, not even I, can really know for sure if some pontificating ass at the other end of the debate is actually one up.

From what I think I know, there's a valid argument for just about everyone of those issues you listed that equates to an advantage for the American people. So is there something the intellect is noticing that the skeptic of his intelligence is not?

debeda

Subjective perhaps. I was trying to make a point. You are correct that some (very few, I hope) people and mental maps may see the things I've cited as "beneficial" in some way.
The thing that I have observed self professed intellectual people and groups to be short on is holistic (in the true meaning of the word, not woowoo) thinking. There are always those pesky "unintended consequences". In many areas, admittedly, but in social engineering particularly.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

I have two of Paul Johnson's excellent histories, "The History of the Jews," and "The History of Christianity," in addition to his book on Darwin, delving into the tragic flaws that led Darwin to support the burgeoning eugenics movement that contributed to Hitler's holocaust in Germany.

"Paul Bede Johnson CBE (born 2 November 1928) is an English journalist, popular historian, speechwriter, and author of over forty books. Although associated with the political left in his early career, he is now a conservative popular historian." (Wikipedia)

Paul Johnson wrote of his childhood in a book titled:"The Vanished Landscape : A 1930s Childhood in the Potteries"

From it's description on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0753819333
/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p5_i5

"Paul Johnson, the celebrated historian, grew up in Tunstall, one of the six towns around Stoke-on-Trent that made up the Potteries'. From an early age he was fascinated by the strange beauty of its volcanic landscape of fiery furnaces belching out heat and smoke.

"The Staffordshire Potteries is the industrial area encompassing the six towns, Tunstall, Burslem, Hanley, Stoke, Fenton and Longton that now make up the city of Stoke-on-Trent in Staffordshire, England. North Staffordshire became a centre of ceramic production in the early 17th century, due to the local availability of clay, salt, lead and coal.

"As a child he often accompanied his father - headmaster of the local art school and desperate to find jobs for his students, for this was the Hungry Thirties - to the individual pottery firms and their coal-fired ovens. His adored mother and father are at the heart of this story and his older sisters who, as much as his parents, brought him up."

"Children made their own amusements to an extent unimaginable today, and his life was extraordinarily free and unsupervised. No door was locked - Poverty was everywhere but so were the Ten Commandments.'

"The book ends in 1938 as the 11-year-old author queues at the town-hall for a gas mask."

There is one brief paragraph above printed in BOLD print, which IMHO, explains the most significant factor that changed in England, in the United States, and in the western "civilized" world since Paul Johnson's childhood in the 30's that created a society that is no longer safe for a child to play outside anywhere unattended.

That is the removal of the presence, knowledge, and respect for the Ten Commandments, and by extension, the knowledge of the Word of God, from our homes, our schools and our public buildings.

straightUp Loc: California

I never made any claims about how smart I am, blade.


OK - so hang on... there's a little ambiguity between us here... I am defining the "intellect" specifically as a developed capacity to leverage self-awareness, intelligence and wisdom. If you want to define it as something a human can't survive without, you would have to call every human alive an intellectual. And that's fine if that's how you see it, but then I would have to go back and reword my post to make it relevant to your definition. 'See what I saying?


OK... That makes sense to me. I think he's talking about an even tighter definition of "intellectuals" though. I know the type... No place for touchy-feely and that's a very, very good point. And yes, it does account for some of them, but not all of them.

I still suspect (without any real basis) that he is trying to hyperbole that strict definition to get people to toss out the baby with the bathwater. ;)

straightUp Loc: California

How many laps? ;)


Well, with social engineering you're dealing with psychology which I'm sure you know is mostly uncharted so it's not surprising. Also, I agree that some people who are claimed to be "intellectual" (it's usually by others, I don't recall any off-hand that actually refer to themselves as intellectuals) are indeed short on holistic awareness... Some of them. Not all of them.

Rose42

There are many people who are not highly educated but have a high intellect so in that respect I agree with you. Higher education doesn't mean all that much when it comes to wisdom though. There seems to be a disconnect. No one should automatically trust anyone in a leadership position - unless one is in the military and even that has its limits.

Following leaders isn't really a path to wisdom either. Some people gain wisdom, others never seem too regardless of education.