Do you think we are alone?? (Page 13): Yes. But there was no need for waving arms. I know it doesn't matter to you. Yet your imagination only goes so far. And no I'm not confused one...

Rose42

straightUp wrote:

Greater than what? The faith it takes to believe God waved his arms and created the world in seven days?

Yes. But there was no need for waving arms.

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I already agreed that it takes a giant leap of faith to actually believe ANY of the theories about the origins of the universe are infallible. But your assumption that it even matters to someone like me is where I think you are confused. I don't need faith to believe it's true because I don't care if it is. But I do have the imagination to see it's many possibilities. See the difference now?

I know it doesn't matter to you. Yet your imagination only goes so far. And no I'm not confused one bit.

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I suppose if you lack imagination, or if your natural-born capacity to imagine has been beaten down over time by religious dogma it would be hard to grasp how a field of gas can eventually form planets with complex climate systems.

Many non believers make the same mistake you make here. That we are "beaten down". Quite the opposite. A lot of us - myself included - used to believe as you do. What changed it started with examining self. Man isn't inherently good. Children aren't taught to lie, steal and be selfish. That's man's nature.

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Insisting that there HAS to be a design is an inability to let go of our own limitations as humans. Some people think that because humans rely on designs to build things, God does too.

No it isn't. And we cannot understand the mind of God whose intelligence is far beyond anything we could ever grasp. He didn't have to sit down and plan it out.

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Rose42 wrote:
From something - God - who has always existed.

How do you know? Seems to me that it takes even more faith to believe that out of the thousands of stories about how the world was created the one you chose to believe, the one where God created the universe like a magic trick is even farther fetched than Big Bang.

Is it? You would have people believe that out of nothing came the magic of life. That somehow it evolved into what we have now. That's its own magic trick - a magic explosion out of nothing.

There is only one God but that's a different discussion. No other belief system is like Christianity. No other belief system has a God that suffered so much for us.

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Rose42 wrote: br br He is the Creator and designe... (show quote)

You believe people accept it without question but they don't. What you're exploring is not reality because you don't know what that reality is - with regards to creation.

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Not too worry though, as I said you don't need imagination to believe that God waved his hands and created the Universe in 7 days, a measure of time that is based on the rotation of a preexisting Earth.

If you're going to persist in making fun of it you should at least be accurate. lol

What many of us have come to see is Creationism makes much more sense especially given that scientists go through all kinds of gyrations to avoid acknowledging its possibility.

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Rose42 wrote: br br A supreme being with intellig... (show quote)

You do insist you know what its not all the while insisting your mind is open to all possibilities.

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Also, in thousands of years since people were coming up with stories about how the universe was created we've developed a massive body of knowledge and theories to utilize in our exploration... E=mc2 for instance, that says matter and energy are exchangeable as the atomic bomb has abundantly proven to us... just to point out one.

As already mentioned, many scientists are Christians. They just don't believe in a magical big bang because it really doesn't make sense. Where did this matter and energy come from? It had to come from somewhere. Science is no closer to an explanation.

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Rose42 wrote:

I know we won’t agree on this but you do raise some valid questions.

Valid questions are the best kind ;)

And you do realize that what's valid is quite often subjective.

Rose42

Tug484 wrote:

I actually saw something they did once and those scientists actually admitted there had to be a God.
I can't remember exactly what they did. It was quite a few years back.

I've seen similar admissions but it was a long time ago.

Silent Hammer

susanblange wrote:

There was no star of Bethlehem. If the magi came f... (show quote)

You didn't WATCH THE VIDEO, did you?

Iliamna1

To those who know Him, God is the Creator, the Sustainer, All-in-All, THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE.
To those who don't know Him, time + coincidence = god.

Silent Hammer

For those of you who don't BELIEVE in God's Creation, and those who BELIEVE that God Created in a way YOU can understand, you're equating God with a CREATED human intellect. To affirm that God HAS an intellect is to LIMIT HIM. God is a True Spirit. He ALWAYS EXISTED, was NOT Created, and Always Will BE! He KNEW Sodom was about to be burned to a crisp back in eternal timelessness. He KNEW Mary would be SINLESS and thus the recipient of The Word: Jesus. He didn't MAKE her become The Mother of Jesus, but He KNEW she would, because He knew HER! From eternity. All things are in motion FROM ETERNITY. If a little Japanese man can set 5000 dominoes into such a pattern that when the first is toppled, a cascade of topplings will unfold to reveal a pattern and a motion that makes us GASP in admiration, how much more can The Eternal, Omnipotent, All Loving God set into motion the coming about of physical being so that it leads to US, HERE, NOW, and then tomorrow? Can you not SEE THAT? You HAVE to know in your SOUL that you HAVE a soul. That it is made for MORE than dust. That ALL THIS is just the Journey to....SOMETHING....so much MORE than NOW. You must explore and WATER that seed, or you will not receive the Eternal, Great and wondrous blessing that this Eternal God HAS FOR YOU!

Iliamna1

Silent Hammer wrote:

For those of you who don't BELIEVE in God's Creati... (show quote)

The atheists set up their paper tigers as our god, then burn them upo in contempt because we believe in Him.. The first step to know Him is to acknowledge you're a sinner, and believe that His Son, Jesus Christ, paid your sin-debt on the cross. Only after this will He make Himself known to you. . . and in so many amazing and wonderful ways.

Rose42

Iliamna1 wrote:

The atheists set up their paper tigers as our god, then burn them upo in contempt because we believe in Him.. The first step to know Him is to acknowledge you're a sinner, and believe that His Son, Jesus Christ, paid your sin-debt on the cross. Only after this will He make Himself known to you. . . and in so many amazing and wonderful ways.

And the kicker is, you are never more free.

Iliamna1

Rose42 wrote:

And the kicker is, you are never more free.

You become free to become the person He created you to be.
You're freed from condemnation, freed from emotional lability and bitterness (if you want that), freed to love.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

bylm1-Bernie wrote:

What a bunch of nonsensical BS!

He's made himself his own god.

kemmer

Iliamna1 wrote:

You become free to become the person He created you to be.
You're freed from condemnation, freed from emotional lability and bitterness (if you want that), freed to love.

So, sorta like a get-out-of-jail-free card?

bylm1-Bernie

kemmer wrote:

So, sorta like a get-out-of-jail-free card?

You got it, Pal. Now you're catching on! Kind of hard to believe, isn't it?

Iliamna1

kemmer wrote:

So, sorta like a get-out-of-jail-free card?

Soo superior than just 'fire insurance.'

straightUp Loc: California

Rose42 wrote:

Yes. But there was no need for waving arms.

LOL

Rose42 wrote:

I know it doesn't matter to you. Yet your imagination only goes so far. And no I'm not confused one bit.

1. If you know faith in being right doesn't matter to me then why did you stress the "greater leap of faith" it takes to be believe I'm right?
2. MY imagination is boundless but thank you for confirming my point that it atrophies in religious cultures.
And...
3. just what exactly do you think I am saying you're confused about?

Rose42 wrote:

Many non believers make the same mistake you make here. That we are "beaten down". Quite the opposite. A lot of us - myself included - used to believe as you do. What changed it started with examining self. Man isn't inherently good. Children aren't taught to lie, steal and be selfish. That's man's nature.

Well, you're certainly welcome to your opinion. We disagree on every point there. ;)

I can't really say I appreciate your baseless assumption either, that I think the way you used to. It's one of those overused "I learned, you didn't" colloquialisms that perhaps you didn't give much thought to, but I am highly doubtful that our history of thoughts have ANY similar patterns.

straightUp wrote:

Insisting that there HAS to be a design is an inability to let go of our own limitations as humans. Some people think that because humans rely on designs to build things, God does too.

Rose42 wrote:

No it isn't.

So, either we disagree again or you're just being contrary. I'll assume the former.

Rose42 wrote:

And we cannot understand the mind of God whose intelligence is far beyond anything we could ever grasp.

So in the same sentence you state that we can NOT understand the mind of God AND proceed to describe it anyway. ;)

Maybe our thought histories do overlap a little, when I was a kid I used to say the same thing about God and his unfathomable intelligence.

Rose42 wrote:

He didn't have to sit down and plan it out.

Well, I suppose there wasn't a chair to sit in before he created the universe, right?

In any case... did those dusty scribes actually state that God didn't have to plan out his creation or are you just imagining He didn't? That's pretty much what I was doing as a kid, thinking about God's expansive intellect. It's not that I had seen any proof, or even the slightest evidence... I just wanted it to be true.

straightUp wrote:

Seems to me that it takes even more faith to believe that out of the thousands of stories about how the world was created the one you chose to believe, the one where God created the universe like a magic trick is even farther fetched than Big Bang.

Rose42 wrote:

Is it? You would have people believe that out of nothing came the magic of life. That somehow it evolved into what we have now. That's its own magic trick - a magic explosion out of nothing.

So you are actually telling me that a magic explosion out of nothing is somehow not as feasible as a magic God who has always existed?

See, this is why scientists don't care. They focus on reality as they discover it and speculate about the rest. They don't have time for white-knuckled arguments about which magic doodad is the Holy Grail.

Rose42 wrote:

You believe people accept it without question but they don't.

Many of them do Rose... I know a lot of religious people personally and they TELL me they do NOT question their faith. They might question themselves, or the world around them. But they don't question their faith. And it makes sense because once they do, it becomes speculation and speculation doesn't have the same power as faith.

Rose42 wrote:

What you're exploring is not reality because you don't know what that reality is - with regards to creation.

With regard to ANYTHING Rose... Not just creation. This has been my point all along. These far-reaching theories are speculations... They are not claims on reality.

Seriously, go back and read through our conversation... You are the only one between us who is claiming to be right about reality. You are the only one claiming that anyone else along with their theories are wrong... Perhaps it's you're obsession with being right that makes you assume that I am too.

But I'm not. So, I don't care if it takes a greater leap of faith to believe the universe came from an explosion because I don't care if it's true or not.

Rose42 wrote:

What many of us have come to see is Creationism makes much more sense especially given that scientists go through all kinds of gyrations to avoid acknowledging its possibility.

Those gyrations are the various tests that science uses for deduction, which is how science works, it's a process of testing and discrediting. Big bang and evolution are famous theories because they have lasted for so long under the constant assault of scientific testing. Creationism failed to pass the first round because it doesn't have a testable explanation in the first place. Which is why you need faith to believe it. Folks like you get upset with these "gyrations" fo the same reason kids get upset with the teacher that gave them an F on their test.

"Stupid scientists... they just don't want me to be right."

Rose42 wrote:

As already mentioned, many scientists are Christians. They just don't believe in a magical big bang because it really doesn't make sense.

Maybe not to you.

And yes, many scientists are Christians and they don't "believe" in a magical big bang for the same reasons NONE of the scientists do... As I've said so many times already, scientists don't cling to "beliefs" that their theory is "correct".

I wonder if you'll ever get that.

Rose42 wrote:

And you do realize that what's valid is quite often subjective.

Yes, a question can be both at the same time.

Silent Hammer

straightUp wrote:

Yes, a question can be both at the same time.

We are "taught" in The Bible that we are made in the "Image and likeness of God". We go too far to assume that He is in any way in OUR image. God is pure spirit, and was totally until Jesus Christ was conceived. God IS TRUTH. God IS LOVE. God has no MIND. God has no Intelligence. (O.K, stoning begins in fifteen minutes). These are "human descriptors", or at least things we attribute to "created" beings. The words "mind" and "intelligence" indicate God can change His behavior. We probably agree that God is PERFECT (get my direction here?). He always was perfect. So, How and Why would he need a "mind". Everything about Him was perfect, so there's no need to "think" about stuff....it's already the BEST IT CAN BE. It's PERFECT. Talking about -- arguing about -- the "human qualities of God" is harder, I imagine, than herding cats. Or pushing a chain up a tree. I guess it could be done, but WHAT'S the point?
In The Catholic Religion, I was taught that my best purpose in life is to "know, love and serve God in this life and be happy with Him in The Next". Pretty smart, eh? Nowhere is the word "understand" in that statement. I'll stick with know, love and serve, thank you. Given the distractions of life, those are efforts that require a bit of concentration and discipline.

Rose42

straightUp wrote:

1. If you know faith in being right doesn't matter to me then why did you stress the "greater leap of faith" it takes to be believe I'm right?
2. MY imagination is boundless but thank you for confirming my point that it atrophies in religious cultures.
And...
3. just what exactly do you think I am saying you're confused about?

Your imagination isn't really boundless though. You just don't recognize your boundaries.

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I can't really say I appreciate your baseless assumption either, that I think the way you used to. It's one of those overused "I learned, you didn't" colloquialisms that perhaps you didn't give much thought to, but I am highly doubtful that our history of thoughts have ANY similar patterns.

And yet...you have made your own baseless assumptions. You can say whatever you like. Nothing offends me here.

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So in the same sentence you state that we can NOT understand the mind of God AND proceed to describe it anyway. ;)

No I didn't.

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Well, I suppose there wasn't a chair to sit in before he created the universe, right?

In any case... did those dusty scribes actually state that God didn't have to plan out his creation or are you just imagining He didn't? That's pretty much what I was doing as a kid, thinking about God's expansive intellect. It's not that I had seen any proof, or even the slightest evidence... I just wanted it to be true.

You took exception to something I said yet your post is a string of not so subtle insults. That says a lot about what you believe whether you realize it or not.

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So you are actually telling me that a magic explosion out of nothing is somehow not as feasible as a magic God who has always existed?

Yep.

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See, this is why scientists don't care. They focus on reality as they discover it and speculate about the rest. They don't have time for white-knuckled arguments about which magic doodad is the Holy Grail.

Scientists focus on what they believe is reality and get frustrated when their guesses about the origins of life are found wanting.

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Many of them do Rose... I know a lot of religious people personally and they TELL me they do NOT question their faith. They might question themselves, or the world around them. But they don't question their faith. And it makes sense because once they do, it becomes speculation and speculation doesn't have the same power as faith.

That's understandable they don't. I don't either. Its the road to that faith that is filled with MANY questions.

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With regard to ANYTHING Rose... Not just creation. This has been my point all along. These far-reaching theories are speculations... They are not claims on reality.

Seriously, go back and read through our conversation... You are the only one between us who is claiming to be right about reality. You are the only one claiming that anyone else along with their theories are wrong... Perhaps it's you're obsession with being right that makes you assume that I am too.

That is what you have done despite your protest to the contrary.

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Those gyrations are the various tests that science... (show quote)

I know how it works. They work with what they think they know yet when it comes to creation they have no viable answers. Not a one. For all the talk of imagination that only exists to a point. They are constrained but don't realize it.

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Maybe not to you.

And yes, many scientists are Christians and they don't "believe" in a magical big bang for the same reasons NONE of the scientists do... As I've said so many times already, scientists don't cling to "beliefs" that their theory is "correct".

I wonder if you'll ever get that.

Yes scientists do cling to their beliefs. For many of them it is their own religion but many don't see it.