Seth

When Big Government hasn't sabotaged it with "good intentions," this country has done just fine. And as I said, while the left always uses the poor as a "client" to represent, the poor always come out of things more miserable than they were before the left "championed" their cause.

LOLOL! I wonder how many of those being "represented" by the left even know they have a "cause" that's being "championed?"

Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

I totally agree.

We had better not kick back and think we have a reelection in the bag.

That's how champions are defeated.

If Donald Trump is not reelected, we're in for a hard slide to doom.

Seth

Exactly.

straightUp Loc: California

Nothing in education is a guarantee but what we CAN say is that critical thinking has never been a part of K12 education. For any kind of formal training in critical thinking you have to go to college. That doesn't mean you can't learn critical thinking without college, you can, but for the formal training... college.


I agree that college graduates are increasingly finding no return on their investment. This is a trend that started long before Obama the Great and has more to do with the profit potential of private universities that churn out more graduates than the job market needs. If anything, Obama the Great made public college more accessible to more Americans but that has nothing to do with the value of the degrees being earned. In any case, I'm not sure how any of this relates to critical thinking. Whether or not a college degree translates into money has absolutely nothing to do with critical thinking. Indeed, most career paths don't even require critical thinking.


I doubt that. Last time I was in England I noticed that a LOT of these entry level jobs were taken by highly educated Europeans that couldn't find jobs to match their education level. The only difference is that these young Europeans didn't owe anything. Burdening students with enormous debt is a distinctly American tradition.


You never took liberal arts. I can tell. Liberal arts is the category of education that includes critical thinking and if you were thusly educated you would know that the formality is open-ended. In fact a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around liberal arts because it's so abstract and lacks the mechanical rigor of "correct answers". So, if formal training in critical thinking stifles a persons ability to test and evaluate concepts it's because that person failed to understand what he was being taught.


So, this is a perfect example of how conclusions are reached without critical thinking. I'm very familiar with this argument and it seems you are simply subscribing to it. A critical thinker wouldn't subscribe so readily... he would ask more questions like, WHY are these conservatives being banned? The subscriber will probably think the answer is obvious because it's included in the subscription... "liberals don't want to allow conservative ideas." But the critical thinker would look beyond that...

...He would notice the complete absence of ANY policy on ANY campus that prohibits conservatives views or the right to present them in public speech.
...He would then notice that such presentations are canceled on a case-by-case basis.
...After questioning each case, he would begin to recognize a pattern...

I'm using Berkley as the exhibit here, since that school seems to be a focal point for this argument and I've already done the research. The pattern is really obvious once you see it. The ONLY time a presentation is denied is when the subject matter falls into a category of speech that is known to cause unrest AND the security that would keep students safe in such situations is unattainable. Ann Coulter's case is a perfect example... She scheduled a speech a few years ago at Berkley. The school knew her subject-matter had the potential to cause unrest and gave her some scheduling options where security was available. She came back and said she wanted a different day. The school, which outsources security, was not able to make it happen for the day Coulter requested. Most honest presenters would have continued to work with the school to find a date that works for them and for the school, but Coulter instead went to Fox and declared that Berkley denied her because they don't want her to speak. In other words, she was reinforcing the false premise that you apparently subscribe to. Everything else I have to say about that, such as her intention to sabotage the school is speculation but I think reasonable.



The privileged ones are... People like Princess Ivanka who has never spent a minute of her life in reality. Many other students work their way through college, like I did.


Again, lots of college students are working their way through college doing the same things those lesser educated Republicans are doing at the same age. So it's not a strong argument. I DO understand what you're trying to say here and I'm familiar with the sentiment. But it's mostly grudge.

I did college AND trade school and I have to say, the trade school was a better deal for me when it came to starting a career, but that's because, like I said, very few careers require critical thinking. Trade schools don't teach critical thinking, they teach what you need to know to follow procedures. My college paid off when I made the move from operations to engineering because while companies don't mind hiring trade school graduates to follow procedures they prefer college graduates to work on innovation projects.

So if we're still talking about critical thinking, your point about trade school education is entirely irrelevant. Like I said, most jobs don't require it. Truck drivers, electricians, construction workers, pretty much ALL the blue-collar work and a surprising portion of white-collar work, such as accounting, falls into the "follow procedures" category and I think trade schools ARE the best option for that. Critical thinking isn't critical until you get to innovator jobs that require out-of-the-box thinking and probably accounts for less than 10% of the job market.

I think for most people, the value of critical thinking is a matter of self-defense in a world where people are constantly being scammed or misled and that includes politics. Exploitive politicians like Trump get elected BECAUSE of a lack of critical thinking among the voters. When critical thinking is sparse, rhetoric and falsehoods win. As Jonathan Swift wrote more than 300 years ago, "Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it.” Why? Because critical thinking is less common than bandwagon-loyalty, that's why.

Finally, I want to expand on my first response... As I've said, You don't have to go to college to learn critical thinking. In fact, I think the BEST opportunity for developing a person's critical thinking is at home at a very early age. Sadly, many children are told what to do without giving them choices. THIS is what stifles critical thinking more than anything else. Among the families I know personally, I find the conservative households are the worst when it comes to allowing their children to explore concepts on their own. They are more often told what to do and what to think as part of the process the parents *think* is necessary to cultivate an upright citizen. It's unfortunate because children are most adaptable at an early age and when they are not raised to make their own decisions, they struggle more with the formal concepts of critical thinking when they get to college and THIS is why the point about which party has the more "educated" members is often misunderstood - it's not that college MAKES people better critical thinkers, it's that people who are already more capable of critical thought are more likely to succeed in college. So the score is more a symptom than a cause.

debeda

Floyd, I'm sorry, but your description of ego perfectly describes much of what I dont like about the democratic party.

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

Well first off you need to revise your rating of Trump.
You are not going to be able to avoid the loss of white supremacy.
White males for a great part of history have used colonialism for their own benefit.
There are forces out there now that wish to gain some of that power.
There can be an increase in the standards of living for many.

To do so way well mean the standard of living may decrease for many.
There are just to many in the world today that want it all.

Because of what has taken place in the past:
Those with the most will be hard pressed to have the poor put their life's on the line to protect the wealthy. (Those helicopter-soccer moms will cry out when their children will have to be drafted to protect the wealthy.)

I am an old white male who has had a good run on life & as I near the end I look ahead for only an additional day.

I have made some preparations for death & set aside funds for an unsure future.

I sit here & share thoughts with others while I should be cleaning up my hoarding mess.

Once when I was about nine & the family was moving to a farm I had a sale of most of my toys.
(Thinking on a farm I would not need them.
Since that time I have been slow to dispose of things.

Hoarding is just an unorganized form of collecting things.
I have pipes to hang clothes on & lots of shelving.
My children only want the money & none of the other things.

I don't know if any one real reads much of what I write.
But I feel every one should take a good look at who & what they are a write it down.

To all who have read it this far :
HAVE A GREAT DAY!

Seth

Yes, there's that, too. 😁

debeda

Well said, Seth

son of witless

You make a good argument.

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

Well some one has added to the mess we face.
Some one is going to clean it up as best they see how.
I look to us as being more of a part of what we are than of what we will be.

Seth

Then you aren't paying enough attention to the "will be," because there's a lot more truth to the saying The Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions than some people might care to realize.

straightUp Loc: California

That's a matter of perspective. If you ignore all the abuses, the exploitations and the oppression so common in our history, then yes, the picture looks pretty good.


That's just plain false. The fact is, before the Republicans initiated the progressive movement a little over 100 years ago (a movement currently championed by the left) the vast majority of Americans WERE poor and frequently abused by their employers. The middle-class is a relatively new thing that came about as American workers fought for better compensation. You take a lot for granted my friend.


If you are still referring to the poor, probably not. Most impoverished people are too busy trying to survive to find much time for politics. The "left" is generally a reference to people who are themselves OK, but want to help others in need. The right appears to have a hard time understanding that, but I suspect it's more a matter of not wanting to admit it.

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

Being egotistical is believing there will continue to be world leaders like we have now forever.

If this planet is ever going to be able to survive the long term. Changes will take place.

As humans have move past being tribes, city states, counties & nations.
So to will One World Government come about.

You may not live to see it. But you can only delay & not avoid it.

Seth

You are highly adroit at reassigning events and roles played where it is convenient.

I suspect that should America fall and become a leftist totalitarian state, you will have a fine position at the Ministry of Propaganda.

son of witless

I thank you for giving me such a detailed response. In the recent past I have tried to engage in such discussions with others, on this board, who disagree with me and they have refused to debate me point for point as you have. My only criticism is that you have given me such a long answer. I would have preferred our debate broken up into several shorter interactions, but that is merely due to my idiosyncrasies.

While I myself sometimes tend to go on and on, I will now try to limit the length of my speech. We have many differences, but the central one in this discussion is what is critical thinking. I doubt you and I can come to a resolution on that point. You have pointed out our educational differences. We each have a small touch of arrogance about it.

" Critical thinking isn't critical until you get to innovator jobs that require out-of-the-box thinking and probably accounts for less than 10% of the job market. "

I can take that one of two ways. The first would be an entrepreneur who invents a new gadget, widget, or concept. The second would be the engineer who lays out the schematic or business plan. Having been a technician and not an engineer as I infer that you were, my technician arrogance brags the we field guys are the ones who must adjust in field to bring your dreams to reality.