Morgan

What question? I'm only going through them one by one now, which did I not answer yet?

The Critical Critic Loc: Turtle Island

Where did you get that from, Jacobin? They emerged a lot earlier, where do you think England got the idea? Even the Puritans brought it here with them in the 17th century, and it nearly killed them.


And thank goodness for that.


Sorry, I don’t see any difference, except in the latter waiting it’s chance. Socialism in this country will never be accepted by force, but if it’s introduced incrementally, the citizens will never see it coming, and wonder how it happened.

The Critical Critic Loc: Turtle Island

The first. Asking you if could name a country where socialism has been successful with a population of more than 10 million...

Morgan

4.)I’d wish you luck with your endeavor, but, that would be disingenuous of me. I think the “propaganda” from the right is mostly aimed at the progressive caucus of the Democratic Party and it’s completely justified if you pay attention to their rhetoric, namely AOC, Talib, Sanders, even most democrats campaigning for 2020.

They don't speak for all of the Democratic party, but as I showed in my last reply you can see the differences in socialists beliefs.

5.)Have you ever considered how offensive it is to the millions of those who lost their family members in that war fighting the spread of socialism to see that today 51% of people aged between 18 and 34 favoring socialism in this country? Talk about a kick in the teeth!

Again, that is a kick in the teeth to those who do not understand what is actually being said, I think some direct questions need to be asked for clarification.

In the same respect of the word as defined in the past within that old assumption of socialism, don't you think the same offense is taken by people fighting for this country and being called socialist or communists simply due to them being democratic, why don't you see that?

6.)My most recent recollection would be Obama. Remember what he said about those that “cling to their guns and bibles”?

Generalizations are always bad, but as we both know there is some truth to it, it's just usually a small minority.

7.)Damn right! Socialism doesn’t allow for people to get ahead, it only allows for everyone to be equal in their misery.

Again, no one here wants a form of totaltarianism"socialism". That is complete propaganda leading people by their own ignorance of their fellow citizens.

8.)True. And how many countries/governments have collapsed utilizing capitalism compared to those utilizing socialism? I think JoyV has full comprehension of the subject. That's because you are still misunderstanding it as much as she is, no offense. Once again, Socialism is not to be feared, an authoritarian government is.

9.Why? Because of your words. Maybe romanticize isn’t the right word, but you ultimately fail to see the slippery slope of socialism. And I’m so tired of that meme about emergency services, police, fire, public schools etc; none of those are the production or means provided solely by government, they’re local issues. And as far as the military, no matter the form of government or economic system, most of not all countries have a military, it has nothing to do with this discussion.

What you fail to see is the slippery slope of a country being overthrown, readjusting your eye off the ball, as they are doing now pinning the right against the left with their false accusations. Some of the idiots on the left are not helping as Bernie and AOC, they are also feeding the misinformation. All in all, this is the most damaging issue to us as a country.

We are being used and manipulated, see it for what it is and who it is coming from.

Here's one way to think of it, in a horse and wagon, it is the horse that pulls the wagon, the government being the horse, pulling the wagon ~their chosen economic system, now the big question is... who's driving the horses? Who has the reins in their hands, who's steering them?

10.)In this country, the taxpayers, without them, government couldn’t afford either the wagon or the horse...

No, the taxpayers, unfortunately, they don't hold the reins, we've given that power to our representatives, and is why when they get corrupted and controlled by plutocrats and oligarchs we suffer. Taxpayers are more like the wheels to the wagon, we don't move without them.



11.)True.... just look at Venezuela.

True... voted in and then overthrown by a dictator. I rest my case.

Morgan

During the Meiji period,the population of Japan at the time of the Meiji Restoration was estimated to be 34,985,000 on January 1, 1873. An interesting read on how this emperor brought up his country out of the depths of poverty.

Morgan

The same with fascism, or a dictatorship, if he were to get more support and loyalty to him for party control, which is what we're seeing now, with the known assumption the Senate would never impeach someone from their own party, party before country.

There's a huge difference between the two, one embarrasses capitalism the other rejects it.

Now, you wore me out, LOL

The Critical Critic Loc: Turtle Island

They may not speak for all, but definitely a majority. Look at the platform of the 2020 contenders.... free healthcare, education, universal income, etc. Booker and few others even calling for gun confiscation. Most if not all advocate redistribution of wealth via the government. And that’s partly why they won’t win, and Trump will get a second term, and will be their fault.

I think throughout history the questions have been asked and answered. Socialism is a system of failure and misery. It doesn’t matter how many cherries you put on top, it’ll never be ice cream.

I do see it. They’re called socialists and communists because they wish to “fundamentally” transform this country into a socialist, or its sister, communist state. If the democrats embraced the position of their past, they’d have a better shot at governing today.

Small minority? Something like 70% in this country (Christians) cling to their bible, hardly a minority...

Again, Socialism inevitably leads to totalitarianism, its natural course.

Once again, one inevitably leads to the latter. There’s no misunderstanding...

I don’t think we’ll find common ground here, Morgan. I do thank you though for recognizing the idiocy of the likes of Bernie and AOC.

I think I do. I think we just have different visions of who they are.

Yes, that’s how it works in a Republic...

I’m not going to sit here and deny this happens... that’s why it’s up to us to vote those types out, not re-elect them at a rate of 90%... Heck, even the Declaration of Independence instructs us on this matter.

Ok, I think we’re essentially saying the same thing.

But you’re not acknowledging how a dictator was able to overthrow the government in the first place.

The Critical Critic Loc: Turtle Island

Lol, I was about to say the same. Thank you for talking with, and indulging me, Morgan. We may not see eye to eye, but you’re a good sport, and I appreciate it.

Oh and thank you for that part about Japan in answering my question, I’ll definitely look into that.

(And my apologies to you Rumi, for diverting from your topic. Thank you for your patience)

JoyV

Some things I am unwilling to compromise on. Most especially anything which detracts, ignores, or bypasses the United States Constitution.

JoyV

We have a very different idea of what is mild. To call voters who support your opponent deplorables and irredeemable vs saying the Radical Democrat opponents (NOT the voters or supporters of the opponents but the opponents themselves) want to destroy you [Americans] and our country. It has been a long standing tradition to mud sling at your opponents. But it is NOT a tradition to mud sling at the voters, even the voters voting for your opponent. Trump attacked his opponents and the swamp. Hillary attacked the voters who supported her opponent.

As for how addressed by the right, do you really think being called crooked by the right is worse than being called a NAZI or even Hitler by the left?

JoyV

You ended the quote midway. I posted the exact same quote but included almost the whole paragraph. If you want to contest that we deplorables took her statement out of context, then cutting it off midway is also taking it out of context. Here it is again with the entire paragraph.

"You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America."

Yes. Trump said a vote for any Democrat. In other words, a political campaigner, if not a politician. A party leader NOT a Democratic voter!!! He is not attacking the voters but who they might vote for! And if this is the first time you heard him reference the American Dream, then you must not have listened to many of his speeches.

Yes I am posting a lot of quotes to drive home that Trump never attacked the Democratic voters!

JoyV

Well rebutted!

I'd like to add that most fire departments are manned by volunteers and funded locally by the people who that fire department protects.

JoyV

Wait. Didn't you say Socialism was an economic system? So if you were correct that socialism is an economic system, how can a socialist system work within a capitalist system? One economic system relying on another to work? So why would anyone want a socialist economic system at all if it needs capitalism to work?

I know what's coming. I just don't understand. I'm too simplistic. Well yes I DON'T understand. Many of your arguments either go in circles, contradict each other, or simply seem illogical to me.

The Critical Critic Loc: Turtle Island

Sorry, Morgan, just one more thing...

Trying to educate myself here. I looked a little bit into this, but I couldn’t really find anything about what we were talking about. If you could give a link to something more substantial than what I found that would be greatly appreciated...

This is what I looked at...

https://www.britannica.com/event/Meiji-Restoration

https://www.britannica.com/event/Charter-Oath

Interestingly, the Meiji Restoration was accomplished via a coup d'é·tat.... à la Venezuela

JoyV

So why didn't it happen in Venezuela under capitalism? Why does it never happen under a capitalist system, but always under a socialist system?

And NO the taxpayers are NOT like the wheels. They voted in the representatives and can vote them out. We have the power if we will only use it. The apathy of many voters makes them more like a driver asleep on the seat with slack or dropped reins allowing the horse to go where he chooses. And horses will always go where they think they can get the best treats. A green clump here. A patch of clover there. Pretty much like politicians.