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‘War, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing.’ Really?
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May 28, 2019 13:56:59   #
Larry the Legend Loc: Not hiding in Milton
 
MR Mister wrote:
SO, you say Pearl Harbor was a lie? You are the ignorant one here.
You have no idea what would happen to the world if we were to shut down our military. That fact
says everything about your smarts.

Absolutely not. The attack on Pearl Harbor was very real, and also very expected. The US government had gone out of its way to goad the Japanese into attacking the fleet at Pearl Harbor even to the point of jamming the entire fleet into as tight a space as possible just a few days beforehand, much against the better judgement of the senior commanders at the time.

The whole point was to outrage the American people so badly that they would demand vengeance and that meant joining in on the global racket that was the Second World War. Until Pearl Harbor was attacked, public opinion was decidedly against getting involved; after the attack, over a million men volunteered for the armed forces within a few days.

Remember the Lusitania? Same idea.

Mission accomplished.

Reply
May 28, 2019 14:42:27   #
Richard Rowland
 
bahmer wrote:
‘War, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing.’ Really?
By Dr. Mark Creech - May 27, 2019

Reflections for Memorial Day

On my commute home after a long day, the 1970s hit song “War” by Edwin Starr came over my Serius radio station. I can remember passionately singing its lyrics, “War, what is good for? Absolutely nothing,” at age 11 when it was at the top of the Billboard charts. And there I was alone in my car fifty years later, once again, singing those same words, when suddenly I paused mid-lyrics, realizing I didn’t believe that anymore.

Not all war is wrong. Granted, war always tends to produce greater evils than those which precipitated its cause. But to argue all war is wrong – to say that there is absolutely nothing good about it – just isn’t true.

The pacifist’s position on war nor the militarist’s view is actually right. The truth lies between the two extremes.

America’s first great military general, George Washington, expressed the desire of every sober-minded person concerning war. Washington said:

“My first wish is to see the whole world in peace, and the inhabitants of it as one band of brothers, striving who should contribute most to the happiness of mankind. For the sake of humanity, it is devoutly to be wished that the manly employments of agriculture and the humanizing benefits of commerce should suspend the wastes of war and the rage of conquest and that the sword may be turned into the plow-share.”
Nevertheless, as the late Presbyterian scholar, Lorraine Boettner argued in his classic publication, “The Christian Attitude Toward War,” war is sometimes just, necessary, and sometimes good. Boettner writes:

“If the people of Europe had not resisted the Mohammedan invasions, Europe would have been conquered and, humanly speaking, Christianity would have been stamped out. If at the time of the Reformation the Protestants had not resisted the Roman Catholic persecutions, crimes such as were practiced so freely in the Spanish and Italian Inquisitions would have become common all over Europe, and Protestantism would have been destroyed. If the American colonists had not fought for their rights, this country would not have gained its independence…We desire peace, but we realize there are some things worse than war. We desire peace, but not the kind found in the slave camp or the cemetery.”
Over and again in the Old Testament, God directly commands the Israelites to go to war against their enemies. After they were delivered from Egypt, Moses and the people sang:

“Jehovah is a man of war: Jehovah is his name. Pharaoh’s chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea” (Exod. 15:3,4).
After wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, the Israelites entered the Promised Land, and God told them to drive out its wicked inhabitants. Joshua received direct instructions from God as to how to fight the battle of Jericho. Many of the Psalms are prayers for guidance and victory during war-time. The nations that Israel often fought were so vile and sinful that God authorized war against them to wipe them out. And when the Israelites became like the pagan nations and were abominable in their own behaviors, God raised armies to make war against them. There is no question that the Scriptures teach that war, in the Providence of the Almighty, is sometimes sanctioned and divinely appointed.

It may sound remarkably striking, but the truth is war can serve wholesome objectives.

Of course, someone will quickly take exception to this assertion and claim the New Testament has a different message. The teachings of Christ always forbid war, they’ll say. Such arguments can seem quite persuasive, when based on some poignant sentiment, or when Scripture is selectively employed, and the larger context of the Bible’s teachings as a whole on the subject is avoided.

The New Testament doesn’t provide any direct teaching on war. Jesus does command his followers to render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. The apostle Paul teaches in the book of Romans that Christians must recognize the authority of civil government and perform their duties to their country. It is also true that Christians are living in a different dispensation than the people of God in Old Testament times. Still, as Boettner contends:

“When rightly understood the two Testaments are supplementary, not contradictory. The silence of the New Testament on the subject of war apparently rests on the assumption that the subject had been adequately treated and did not call for any addition or modification.”
I believe the wars America has fought through the years were just and right. I think Colin Powell, the U.S. Secretary of State who served under President George W. Bush, summed it up quite eloquently when he said:

“Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those who did not return.”
This Memorial Day Weekend, we remember those who gave their lives to secure our freedom. As Abraham Lincoln said in his incomparable Gettysburg Address:

“that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to the cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion – that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain…and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
“War, what is good for? Absolutely nothing.”
No, that just isn’t true.
‘War, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing.’ Re... (show quote)


Perhaps another perspective.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-05-26/army-virtue-tweet-backfires-1000s-expose-heartbreaking-horrors-war?utm_source=DurdenDi

Reply
May 28, 2019 16:12:32   #
Carol Kelly
 
Larry the Legend wrote:
"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."
Major General Smedley Butler, 1935

https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

To read such lines penned by a US Marine Corps General... Wow. Just... Wow. He goes on:

"But what does it profit the men who are killed? What does it profit their mothers and sisters, their wives and their sweethearts? What does it profit their children?

What does it profit anyone except the very few to whom war means huge profits?

Yes, and what does it profit the nation?"

"It would have been far cheaper (not to say safer) for the average American who pays the bills to stay out of foreign entanglements."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h__zgVz9fN4
"WAR is a racket. It always has been. br br ... (show quote)


Freedom! That’s what it profits the mothers, wives, daughters and sons of those who gave their lives. We will need war to save the world from Islam once again. It cannot be denied. They’ve gained far too much ground. You know it, we all know it. We’re simply in denial for the moment. Another great one, Bahmer. My husband served more than 20 years and luckily didn’t die, but ask a veterans opinion on war.

Reply
 
 
May 28, 2019 16:22:09   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
Larry the Legend wrote:
Absolutely not. The attack on Pearl Harbor was very real, and also very expected. The US government had gone out of its way to goad the Japanese into attacking the fleet at Pearl Harbor even to the point of jamming the entire fleet into as tight a space as possible just a few days beforehand, much against the better judgement of the senior commanders at the time.
That is not true.

Gordon Prange, Professor of History at the University of Maryland, was Chief Historian in General Douglas MacArthur's staff from 1942–1951. During those 9 years in Japan, Prange collected reams of Japanese documents and interviewed hundreds of Japanese military officers, enlisted men, and civilians. With this accumulated material, Prange returned to the United States and began researching the American side of the story. The result of this exhaustive research is the definitive history of the attack on Pearl Harbor:
At Dawn We Slept

I have read this book twice and it is a mind boggling history of what really happened.

A massive history--but not outscale: the late Professor Prange, chief of military history in occupied Japan, has looked into every aspect of the attack on Pearl Harbor--starting with the Japanese side of the story--and leaves no doubt that (as his collaborators and posthumous editors write) ""Tokyo, not Washington, established Japan's foreign policy; the individual responsible for the attack was Isoruko Yamamoto, not Franklin Delano Roosevelt."" There is much new material--on such usually neglected matters, too, as: the Japanese war games used to refine the attack plan; the development of special bombs and torpedoes for use in the attack; Japanese intelligence operations in Hawaii--and American counterintelligence; the nature and function of the overlapping American commands in Hawaii. But Prange also presents the well-known material incisively: the historic March 1941 Bellinger-Martin report--a plan for joint Army/Navy action in the event of an attack on Oahu or fleet units in Hawaiian waters--is wrapped up with the observation that they ""could not have done a better job of mind reading had they actually looked over the shoulders of Yamamoto."" The controversy surrounding what happened thereafter (or didn't happen) engendered eight separate American postwar investigations--and it is in treating these that the book is most outstanding. Prange goes into the nature of each panel, and evaluates its members, procedures, and conclusions; most, he points out, illustrate ""hindsight at its hindmost."" In an interesting appendix, Goldstein and Dillon summarize Prange's criticisms of the revisionist, Roosevelt-blaming histories of the attack. From first to last--responsible, intelligent, absorbing.

Reply
May 28, 2019 17:34:02   #
Larry the Legend Loc: Not hiding in Milton
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
"Tokyo, not Washington, established Japan's foreign policy; the individual responsible for the attack was Isoruko Yamamoto, not Franklin Delano Roosevelt."

I never said anything different. You clearly misread what I wrote. I said the Japanese were goaded into attacking. I did not say that the decision was made for them. My point is that President Roosevelt saw an opportunity to overcome the severe economic problems being experienced by every single American whether young, old, rich or poor. Government spending into weapons of war and the formation of vast armies produced full employment and then some while the best and bravest were sent to foreign shores to fight and die 'for freedom', and they volunteered by the millions because of "a day that will live in infamy". It was set up to go down like that and the Japanese government took the bait; hook, line and sinker.

Reply
May 28, 2019 18:16:07   #
jeff smith
 
bahmer wrote:
‘War, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing.’ Really?
By Dr. Mark Creech - May 27, 2019

Reflections for Memorial Day

On my commute home after a long day, the 1970s hit song “War” by Edwin Starr came over my Serius radio station. I can remember passionately singing its lyrics, “War, what is good for? Absolutely nothing,” at age 11 when it was at the top of the Billboard charts. And there I was alone in my car fifty years later, once again, singing those same words, when suddenly I paused mid-lyrics, realizing I didn’t believe that anymore.

Not all war is wrong. Granted, war always tends to produce greater evils than those which precipitated its cause. But to argue all war is wrong – to say that there is absolutely nothing good about it – just isn’t true.

The pacifist’s position on war nor the militarist’s view is actually right. The truth lies between the two extremes.

America’s first great military general, George Washington, expressed the desire of every sober-minded person concerning war. Washington said:

“My first wish is to see the whole world in peace, and the inhabitants of it as one band of brothers, striving who should contribute most to the happiness of mankind. For the sake of humanity, it is devoutly to be wished that the manly employments of agriculture and the humanizing benefits of commerce should suspend the wastes of war and the rage of conquest and that the sword may be turned into the plow-share.”
Nevertheless, as the late Presbyterian scholar, Lorraine Boettner argued in his classic publication, “The Christian Attitude Toward War,” war is sometimes just, necessary, and sometimes good. Boettner writes:

“If the people of Europe had not resisted the Mohammedan invasions, Europe would have been conquered and, humanly speaking, Christianity would have been stamped out. If at the time of the Reformation the Protestants had not resisted the Roman Catholic persecutions, crimes such as were practiced so freely in the Spanish and Italian Inquisitions would have become common all over Europe, and Protestantism would have been destroyed. If the American colonists had not fought for their rights, this country would not have gained its independence…We desire peace, but we realize there are some things worse than war. We desire peace, but not the kind found in the slave camp or the cemetery.”
Over and again in the Old Testament, God directly commands the Israelites to go to war against their enemies. After they were delivered from Egypt, Moses and the people sang:

“Jehovah is a man of war: Jehovah is his name. Pharaoh’s chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea” (Exod. 15:3,4).
After wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, the Israelites entered the Promised Land, and God told them to drive out its wicked inhabitants. Joshua received direct instructions from God as to how to fight the battle of Jericho. Many of the Psalms are prayers for guidance and victory during war-time. The nations that Israel often fought were so vile and sinful that God authorized war against them to wipe them out. And when the Israelites became like the pagan nations and were abominable in their own behaviors, God raised armies to make war against them. There is no question that the Scriptures teach that war, in the Providence of the Almighty, is sometimes sanctioned and divinely appointed.

It may sound remarkably striking, but the truth is war can serve wholesome objectives.

Of course, someone will quickly take exception to this assertion and claim the New Testament has a different message. The teachings of Christ always forbid war, they’ll say. Such arguments can seem quite persuasive, when based on some poignant sentiment, or when Scripture is selectively employed, and the larger context of the Bible’s teachings as a whole on the subject is avoided.

The New Testament doesn’t provide any direct teaching on war. Jesus does command his followers to render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. The apostle Paul teaches in the book of Romans that Christians must recognize the authority of civil government and perform their duties to their country. It is also true that Christians are living in a different dispensation than the people of God in Old Testament times. Still, as Boettner contends:

“When rightly understood the two Testaments are supplementary, not contradictory. The silence of the New Testament on the subject of war apparently rests on the assumption that the subject had been adequately treated and did not call for any addition or modification.”
I believe the wars America has fought through the years were just and right. I think Colin Powell, the U.S. Secretary of State who served under President George W. Bush, summed it up quite eloquently when he said:

“Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those who did not return.”
This Memorial Day Weekend, we remember those who gave their lives to secure our freedom. As Abraham Lincoln said in his incomparable Gettysburg Address:

“that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to the cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion – that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain…and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
“War, what is good for? Absolutely nothing.”
No, that just isn’t true.
‘War, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing.’ Re... (show quote)

from a vet . thanks.

Reply
May 28, 2019 18:19:30   #
jeff smith
 
Larry the Legend wrote:
"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."
Major General Smedley Butler, 1935

https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

To read such lines penned by a US Marine Corps General... Wow. Just... Wow. He goes on:

"But what does it profit the men who are killed? What does it profit their mothers and sisters, their wives and their sweethearts? What does it profit their children?

What does it profit anyone except the very few to whom war means huge profits?

Yes, and what does it profit the nation?"

"It would have been far cheaper (not to say safer) for the average American who pays the bills to stay out of foreign entanglements."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h__zgVz9fN4
"WAR is a racket. It always has been. br br ... (show quote)

somewhat true . yet , maybe you think that we should be speaking German or Japanese ?

Reply
 
 
May 28, 2019 18:27:07   #
Richard Rowland
 
Larry the Legend wrote:
I never said anything different. You clearly misread what I wrote. I said the Japanese were goaded into attacking. I did not say that the decision was made for them. My point is that President Roosevelt saw an opportunity to overcome the severe economic problems being experienced by every single American whether young, old, rich or poor. Government spending into weapons of war and the formation of vast armies produced full employment and then some while the best and bravest were sent to foreign shores to fight and die 'for freedom', and they volunteered by the millions because of "a day that will live in infamy". It was set up to go down like that and the Japanese government took the bait; hook, line and sinker.
I never said anything different. You clearly misr... (show quote)


I'm of the opinion things have been obfuscated to the point that no one knows for certain what triggered the attack on Pearl Harbor. Some say it was because of Rossevelt declining any future oil sales to Japan.

Then one reads that Roosevelt hadn't decided to totally cut off oil to Japan, had taken leave and left instructions to that effect that weren't followed through on. Ergo the attack.

That Larry doesn't mention oil as a factor, indicates some holes in his reasons for the attack.

Reply
May 28, 2019 18:38:05   #
Larry the Legend Loc: Not hiding in Milton
 
jeff smith wrote:
somewhat true . yet , maybe you think that we should be speaking German or Japanese ?


Wir können jede Sprache sprechen, wann immer wir wollen. 私が今やっているように。 なぜ聞くのですか?

Reply
May 28, 2019 18:38:41   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
Larry the Legend wrote:
I never said anything different. You clearly misread what I wrote. I said the Japanese were goaded into attacking. I did not say that the decision was made for them. My point is that President Roosevelt saw an opportunity to overcome the severe economic problems being experienced by every single American whether young, old, rich or poor. Government spending into weapons of war and the formation of vast armies produced full employment and then some while the best and bravest were sent to foreign shores to fight and die 'for freedom', and they volunteered by the millions because of "a day that will live in infamy". It was set up to go down like that and the Japanese government took the bait; hook, line and sinker.
I never said anything different. You clearly misr... (show quote)
That is not how it went down at all. The Japanese Army militarists were running the show, and their expansion to create the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere, directed primarily at China, southeast Asia and the Philippines, prompted the Army militants to demand the Japanese Navy planners to develop a plan to protect their flank from the US Navy fleets concentrated primarily in Pearl Harbor.

The Japanese planners considered their options. One was to reinforce their Naval outposts in the Western Pacific, the other was to eliminate the US Navy threat. The Army militarists forced their hand and gave the job of planning and executing the attack to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. Although he had misgivings about the success of the attack--limited oil supply was one consideration--and he warned his superiors that a war with the United States could cost them dearly, Yamamoto developed a plan centered upon his own concepts of a carrier strike force. If anyone "goaded" the Japanese Navy to carry out this attack, it was the militarists in the Japanese Army that did it.

Reply
May 28, 2019 18:42:51   #
Larry the Legend Loc: Not hiding in Milton
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
That is not how it went down at all. The Japanese Army militarists were running the show, and their expansion to create the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere, directed primarily at China, southeast Asia and the Philippines, prompted the Army militants to demand the Japanese Navy planners to develop a plan to protect their flank from the US Navy fleets concentrated primarily in Pearl Harbor.

The Japanese planners considered their options. One was to reinforce their Naval outposts in the Western Pacific, the other was to eliminate the US Navy threat. The Army militarists forced their hand and gave the job of planning and executing the attack to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. Although he had misgivings about the success of the attack--limited oil supply was one consideration--and he warned his superiors that a war with the United States could cost them dearly, Yamamoto developed a plan centered upon his own concepts of a carrier strike force. If anyone "goaded" the Japanese Navy to carry out this attack, it was the militarists in the Japanese Army that did it.
That is not how it went down at all. The Japanese ... (show quote)

Like I said, have it your way.

Reply
 
 
May 28, 2019 18:50:49   #
Carol Kelly
 
MR Mister wrote:
I guess you think fighting the Nazis and the creeps that killed 3000 young sailors in Pearl Harbor was a racket too.


Good answer.

Reply
May 28, 2019 18:52:19   #
Carol Kelly
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
That is not how it went down at all. The Japanese Army militarists were running the show, and their expansion to create the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere, directed primarily at China, southeast Asia and the Philippines, prompted the Army militants to demand the Japanese Navy planners to develop a plan to protect their flank from the US Navy fleets concentrated primarily in Pearl Harbor.

The Japanese planners considered their options. One was to reinforce their Naval outposts in the Western Pacific, the other was to eliminate the US Navy threat. The Army militarists forced their hand and gave the job of planning and executing the attack to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. Although he had misgivings about the success of the attack--limited oil supply was one consideration--and he warned his superiors that a war with the United States could cost them dearly, Yamamoto developed a plan centered upon his own concepts of a carrier strike force. If anyone "goaded" the Japanese Navy to carry out this attack, it was the militarists in the Japanese Army that did it.
That is not how it went down at all. The Japanese ... (show quote)


We saved the Japanese people and set them free.

Reply
May 28, 2019 18:54:34   #
Navigator
 
To stay out of foreign entanglements is, first of all, not only not easier but not possible, and secondly, far less safe.

Reply
May 28, 2019 18:57:48   #
Larry the Legend Loc: Not hiding in Milton
 
Navigator wrote:
To stay out of foreign entanglements is, first of all, not only not easier but not possible, and secondly, far less safe.

Tell that to our first President. He specifically warned against getting involved in other peoples' squabbles.

Reply
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