The following is from a PM conversation I had with another poster. After thinking about it, I decided to post it where all the world can read it.
I prefer that you do not respond; you need to think about it before responding with blatant feelings of superiority. I may, however, add to it from time to time.
It is this:
I've heard that before, American women who marry Muslims. It is something a woman should know about the Muslim culture BEFORE she marries into it. I believe that in many of the Muslim countries the male dominance of the family is getting less severe. It is something that needs to change gradually. Women in Muslim countries are becoming less dependent on their men and are taking active roles in government, business and education. Of course, the American culture of matriarchy that has developed over the last few decades is not good for society either.
The decadence in American society, is anathema to Muslims. I don't blame them much for that. Last week I had lunch at a Middle Eastern restaurant, run by a Christian Arab, born in Baghdad, who had lived in Aleppo the last few years, but immigrated to America. Her TV was tuned to an Arab channel--from Lebanon, I believe. The music videos showing weren't much different from something you might see Beyonce in. I don't wonder that Muslims who are true to their faith are worried.
And:
I take it then that you have never discussed religion with a Muslim.
Mohammed was able to take a pagan and animistic culture, probably when all is said and done, worse even than the Canaanites of Biblical history in its attention to ritual and dark demons, and convince them to "submit to the one God"; something neither Christianity nor Judaism could do. So I say: "Quite an accomplishment, Mohammed!"
Allah enjoined those proud, passionate Arabs, AT THAT TIME, to eliminate any "unbelievers"---the pagans and animists, not the "Children of the Book" (Christians and Jews, who were NOT considered "unbelievers")---if they would not profess a belief in one God: Allah. The same goal God wanted King Saul to accomplish in the land of Canaan. That the Arabs conquered many lands after that was due to man's interpretation, (and probably that passionate nature of the Arabs), not God/Allah. The whole world can not and should not be Muslim, any more than it should be Christian, or Jewish, or Buddhist, etc. Islam has made great contributions to art and science and literature, but especially medicine, and more, before the Near and Middle East became stagnant, not because of their religion, but because of empire---the Ottoman empire---a Turkish people, not Arabic. All empires eventually decay. Even the Roman empire, which was Christian at the time of its fall.
But until Christians lose their arrogance, bias and fears, they will never believe there is any good in Islam at all. There is no point in discussion.
I have never said I was Christian, nor am I Muslim. But I can find some good in every religion (except those based on magic and ritual, not on reality). Just as I can find some bad.
For instance, my favorite hadith of the prophet Mohammed is this:
Someone asked him (keep in mind that full acceptance of the one God, Allah, hadn't been completed) if he should tether his camel or trust in Allah. Mohammed replied, after a few moment's thought: "First tether your camel, then trust in God". He was teaching personal responsibility to a people who probably relied on offerings, ritual and sacrifice to MANY gods to accomplish their goal: control of their environment. Muslims find it hard to relate to Christianity, which is seen as the worship of more than one god.
The belief, promulgated by some TV hosts, that Muslims will come to this country and institute Sha'ria Law all around the United States is patently absurd.
Hedge, I agree with most of what you posted. The two societies that allowed their people to have freedom go religion were both Muslim, Muslim Spain and the Ottoman empire under Sulieman the great. This freedom of religion came at a time when Christian Europe allowed their citizens to be only Christian and often burned Muslims and Jews at the stake for their religious beliefs. It is also true that that Muslim civilization was far superior to Christian Europe in science and math, and art, until the renaissance.
HedgeHog wrote:
The following is from a PM conversation I had with another poster. After thinking about it, I decided to post it where all the world can read it.
I prefer that you do not respond; you need to think about it before responding with blatant feelings of superiority. I may, however, add to it from time to time.
It is this:
I've heard that before, American women who marry Muslims. It is something a woman should know about the Muslim culture BEFORE she marries into it. I believe that in many of the Muslim countries the male dominance of the family is getting less severe. It is something that needs to change gradually. Women in Muslim countries are becoming less dependent on their men and are taking active roles in government, business and education. Of course, the American culture of matriarchy that has developed over the last few decades is not good for society either.
The decadence in American society, is anathema to Muslims. I don't blame them much for that. Last week I had lunch at a Middle Eastern restaurant, run by a Christian Arab, born in Baghdad, who had lived in Aleppo the last few years, but immigrated to America. Her TV was tuned to an Arab channel--from Lebanon, I believe. The music videos showing weren't much different from something you might see Beyonce in. I don't wonder that Muslims who are true to their faith are worried.
And:
I take it then that you have never discussed religion with a Muslim.
Mohammed was able to take a pagan and animistic culture, probably when all is said and done, worse even than the Canaanites of Biblical history in its attention to ritual and dark demons, and convince them to "submit to the one God"; something neither Christianity nor Judaism could do. So I say: "Quite an accomplishment, Mohammed!"
Allah enjoined those proud, passionate Arabs, AT THAT TIME, to eliminate any "unbelievers"---the pagans and animists, not the "Children of the Book" (Christians and Jews, who were NOT considered "unbelievers")---if they would not profess a belief in one God: Allah. The same goal God wanted King Saul to accomplish in the land of Canaan. That the Arabs conquered many lands after that was due to man's interpretation, (and probably that passionate nature of the Arabs), not God/Allah. The whole world can not and should not be Muslim, any more than it should be Christian, or Jewish, or Buddhist, etc. Islam has made great contributions to art and science and literature, but especially medicine, and more, before the Near and Middle East became stagnant, not because of their religion, but because of empire---the Ottoman empire---a Turkish people, not Arabic. All empires eventually decay. Even the Roman empire, which was Christian at the time of its fall.
But until Christians lose their arrogance, bias and fears, they will never believe there is any good in Islam at all. There is no point in discussion.
I have never said I was Christian, nor am I Muslim. But I can find some good in every religion (except those based on magic and ritual, not on reality). Just as I can find some bad.
For instance, my favorite hadith of the prophet Mohammed is this:
Someone asked him (keep in mind that full acceptance of the one God, Allah, hadn't been completed) if he should tether his camel or trust in Allah. Mohammed replied, after a few moment's thought: "First tether your camel, then trust in God". He was teaching personal responsibility to a people who probably relied on offerings, ritual and sacrifice to MANY gods to accomplish their goal: control of their environment. Muslims find it hard to relate to Christianity, which is seen as the worship of more than one god.
The following is from a PM conversation I had with... (
show quote)
saltwind78 wrote:
Hedge, I agree with most of what you posted. The two societies that allowed their people to have freedom go religion were both Muslim, Muslim Spain and the Ottoman empire under Sulieman the great. This freedom of religion came at a time when Christian Europe allowed their citizens to be only Christian and often burned Muslims and Jews at the stake for their religious beliefs. It is also true that that Muslim civilization was far superior to Christian Europe in science and math, and art, until the renaissance.
Hedge, I agree with most of what you posted. The t... (
show quote)
For once, I agree with you, Salty. Thanks for the comment.
And if you look deeply at history, you can see that the Mongol (and the Turkish) conversions to Islam softened the harshness of their conquests.
Without Islamic emphasis on learning, the works of classical Greece would not have been made available to Europeans. The Byzantine emperor Justinian outlawed the works of Aristotle:
"...all histories of intellectual thought mention with varying degrees of outrage that Emperor Justinian closed down the Athenian Academy in 529AD. [Mohammed was born in 570 AD.] This, we are told, was the official end of pagan philosophy and the last light to be put out in Europe as the Dark Ages closed in. The professors who had taught at the Academy left the Byzantine Empire for Persia where they were welcomed by the Shah. Thus, the enlightenment of the east contrasted with the shadows that Christianity had thrown in the west." From here:
http://www.bede.org.uk/justinian.htmBecause of Abbasid Spain, and its tolerance of Jews and Christians, great and creative thinking took place---Avicenna, Avveroes and Maimonides. Aquinas read the works of those thinkers, I'm sure, and thus was able to make Aristotle palatable to the Church in the 13th century, from which eventually the European Age of Exploration and Renaissance was born. (After the decline of Scholasticism).
The Germanic barbarian invasions did have a purpose, in the long term scheme of things, however. They brought new vigor into a decayed culture, and allowed experimentation in different types of government. Without feudalism, we would not have federalism.
And the Catholic Church also had a purpose: it was the sole institution that kept the European subcontinent united---in language, some customs, and religion---when it was pressured by invasion.
They Byzantine emphasis of the union of church and state was a fault, and proved disastrous.
saltwind78 wrote:
Hedge, I agree with most of what you posted. The two societies that allowed their people to have freedom go religion were both Muslim, Muslim Spain and the Ottoman empire under Sulieman the great. This freedom of religion came at a time when Christian Europe allowed their citizens to be only Christian and often burned Muslims and Jews at the stake for their religious beliefs. It is also true that that Muslim civilization was far superior to Christian Europe in science and math, and art, until the renaissance.
Hedge, I agree with most of what you posted. The t... (
show quote)
According to Montesquieu, in the 18th century, the crimes still punishable by fire (burning at the stake) were: witchcraft, heresy, and homosexuality. Homosexuality was considered THE crime against nature.
And for the early Christian view of women, read St. Augustine (who blamed women for his former depravity) and St. Jerome, who, I think, actually hated women.
saltwind78 wrote:
Hedge, I agree with most of what you posted. The two societies that allowed their people to have freedom go religion were both Muslim, Muslim Spain and the Ottoman empire under Sulieman the great. This freedom of religion came at a time when Christian Europe allowed their citizens to be only Christian and often burned Muslims and Jews at the stake for their religious beliefs. It is also true that that Muslim civilization was far superior to Christian Europe in science and math, and art, until the renaissance.
Hedge, I agree with most of what you posted. The t... (
show quote)
One other "virtue" I attribute to the Germanic barbarian invasions was the (fumbling) attempts at the separation of Church and State.
Unless you know otherwise, and you might, I think up until then, religion and government were inseparable.
The proud and passionate Arab peoples, once converted, were also passionate about God.
HedgeHog wrote:
The following is from a PM conversation I had with another poster. After thinking about it, I decided to post it where all the world can read it.
I prefer that you do not respond; you need to think about it before responding with blatant feelings of superiority. I may, however, add to it from time to time.
It is this:
I've heard that before, American women who marry Muslims. It is something a woman should know about the Muslim culture BEFORE she marries into it. I believe that in many of the Muslim countries the male dominance of the family is getting less severe. It is something that needs to change gradually. Women in Muslim countries are becoming less dependent on their men and are taking active roles in government, business and education. Of course, the American culture of matriarchy that has developed over the last few decades is not good for society either.
The decadence in American society, is anathema to Muslims. I don't blame them much for that. Last week I had lunch at a Middle Eastern restaurant, run by a Christian Arab, born in Baghdad, who had lived in Aleppo the last few years, but immigrated to America. Her TV was tuned to an Arab channel--from Lebanon, I believe. The music videos showing weren't much different from something you might see Beyonce in. I don't wonder that Muslims who are true to their faith are worried.
And:
I take it then that you have never discussed religion with a Muslim.
Mohammed was able to take a pagan and animistic culture, probably when all is said and done, worse even than the Canaanites of Biblical history in its attention to ritual and dark demons, and convince them to "submit to the one God"; something neither Christianity nor Judaism could do. So I say: "Quite an accomplishment, Mohammed!"
Allah enjoined those proud, passionate Arabs, AT THAT TIME, to eliminate any "unbelievers"---the pagans and animists, not the "Children of the Book" (Christians and Jews, who were NOT considered "unbelievers")---if they would not profess a belief in one God: Allah. The same goal God wanted King Saul to accomplish in the land of Canaan. That the Arabs conquered many lands after that was due to man's interpretation, (and probably that passionate nature of the Arabs), not God/Allah. The whole world can not and should not be Muslim, any more than it should be Christian, or Jewish, or Buddhist, etc. Islam has made great contributions to art and science and literature, but especially medicine, and more, before the Near and Middle East became stagnant, not because of their religion, but because of empire---the Ottoman empire---a Turkish people, not Arabic. All empires eventually decay. Even the Roman empire, which was Christian at the time of its fall.
But until Christians lose their arrogance, bias and fears, they will never believe there is any good in Islam at all. There is no point in discussion.
I have never said I was Christian, nor am I Muslim. But I can find some good in every religion (except those based on magic and ritual, not on reality). Just as I can find some bad.
For instance, my favorite hadith of the prophet Mohammed is this:
Someone asked him (keep in mind that full acceptance of the one God, Allah, hadn't been completed) if he should tether his camel or trust in Allah. Mohammed replied, after a few moment's thought: "First tether your camel, then trust in God". He was teaching personal responsibility to a people who probably relied on offerings, ritual and sacrifice to MANY gods to accomplish their goal: control of their environment. Muslims find it hard to relate to Christianity, which is seen as the worship of more than one god.
The following is from a PM conversation I had with... (
show quote)
The proof is in the pudding. Look at the fruit of muslims . Violence. If u r fooled by islam ur not paying attention.
wuzblynd wrote:
The proof is in the pudding. Look at the fruit of muslims . Violence. If u r fooled by islam ur not paying attention.
I SAID...Drop the blatant feelings of superiority. You are dense, at best. You are still "blynd".
wuzblynd wrote:
The proof is in the pudding. Look at the fruit of muslims . Violence. If u r fooled by islam ur not paying attention.
In your case, there is more fear than sense.
HedgeHog wrote:
I SAID...Drop the blatant feelings of superiority. You are dense, at best. You are still "blynd".
Feeling of superiority? U don't know me at all. All I do is look and it's easy to see what's really up. Even a blynd man can see through Islam.proof is in the pudding. U must be a lib, u think everyone comes under the same blanket. Disagree with me,and ur this phobe or a that phobe . Open ur eyes sweathog.
HedgeHog wrote:
I know you.
Typical lib, complete idiot, and swears up and down ur right and anyone who disagrees with u is scared of something or someone. Like I said u don't know me at all. And if u think I'm scared , bring ur punk ass to Thomson GA. And try to scare me. I20 runs across main Street in Thomson call me when you are 5 minutes out and I'll meet you at loves TRK stop and we'll see who's scared.
wuzblynd wrote:
Typical lib, complete idiot, and swears up and down ur right and anyone who disagrees with u is scared of something or someone. Like I said u don't know me at all. And if u think I'm scared , bring ur punk ass to Thomson GA. And try to scare me. I20 runs across main Street in Thomson call me when you are 5 minutes out and I'll meet you at loves TRK stop and we'll see who's scared.
Will do, blynd. Watch for me!!
HedgeHog wrote:
The belief, promulgated by some TV hosts, that Muslims will come to this country and institute Sha'ria Law all around the United States is patently absurd.
That's not how I see it! And I'm not predisposed to take a chance with the future of my Grandchildren and all future Great Grandchildren. Your business is your business.
If you want to reply, then
register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.