padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Indeed you are a gas bag and full of yourself. You must direct your prayers unwittingly to the father of lies so please do not include me in them. No experience in hedonism myself except fighting against the moral relativism brought on by Progressives, like yourself, who call evil good and good evil such as advocating for the secular social/sexual agenda and the murder of unborn children. All Democrats share in that evil behavior by their tacit approval and support of their Party.

Happy? You foolish little boy. I've been married faithfully to the same woman for 54 years, I have two wonderful children who never caused us any trouble and four grandchildren who are as delightful for us and a credit to their parents. This is due to the stable family life and example my wife and I provided for our children and they, in turn, for their own children. They were raised in a loving family that lived and practiced their faith and were taught right and wrong. They were taught that they too have an obligation as Christians to fight against sin, the world and Satan. Those are baptismal vows we took for our children when as infants they were baptised and they took the same vows for their own children. Happy? Content? At peace? Yes and no! I still continue to fight against evil, not because I expect to win but just because evil must be resisted. Your compromised, cafeteria style of Christianity embraces evil in the false name of love. My wife and I live a very peaceful, loving and happy life. Part of my continued fight against evil is in fighting against the progressive philosophy - that would be people like you.

Docadhoc Loc: Elsewhere

You are either obtuse or you can't read.

I said nothing about bombing anyone nor anything about goat raping. You are struggling trying to combat common sense and doing poorly at it. Apparently giving you the respect to assume you understand what I have said repeatedly in several ways, was a mistake. I seriously doubt you are muslim. The only.other reason I can see for your refusal to see common sense is that your concern for these people overshadows your perception of the danger they present.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. To be on that road is to be dead.

I will now talk to you as if you were in grade school. No disrespect intended. I just don"t know another way to get through to you.

You intimate there are good Muslims and bad muslims. You seem to understand that they all use the same holy book and that book orders them to kill and enslave etc non Islamics.

Therefore, using.your good/bad scenario:

How can you tell the good ones from the bad ones? Obviously they cannot be adequately vetted. Look at the carnage caused by vetted immigrants in europe, recently in Sweden, beginning now here.

My point is that until they can be sorted out, so that the killer/terrorist mentalities can be kept out of America, THEY ALL NEED TO BE KEPT OUT!

To do less is.openly admitting that you are allowing some of the bad ones.in.

Now if you want to be frivolous with your family's lives as well as yours, I guess there is no hope for you or them. However, you are not going to be frivolous with the lives of my family or mine.

If and when a method can be devised to.vette these people to an acceptable degree of certainty, then allowing SOME into America could be considered.

Now that should be easy enough to understand


Still, you have not answered any of.my questions and I can only assume you have no answer. That alone should make you think about your position because each question is valid and borne of common sense. How can a Muslim be a Muslim if he refuses to obey his.Muslim law?

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

I'll answer again. More clearly if I can.

You don't get to define other people's religion for them. You aren't God. Your opinion of their religious fidelity is irrelevant.

Do you know any Christans that follow the Bible perfectly?

Do you care if a Muslim in Iraq says you aren't following your religion to their satisfaction?

Short version: It doesn't matter what we think about other people's faith. Your question is moot.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

If a religion dictates that it has a right and responsibility to kill someone who denies their faith as the only true faith and you don't believe it matters what we think then you must be a Progressive. If it doesn't matter that Coptic Christians in two churches in Egypt are blown up and murdered on Palm Sunday by that same faith who claims it is the only true faith, and it doesn't matter what we think, you must be a Progressive. If you believe that the premeditated murder of 85 million unborn, completely innocent children, is not a religious issue, you must be a Progressive. Actually, if you're a Progressive you know nothing about "The Faith" and make most all your decisions based on your feelings and later try to justify them with reason and logic but always fail.

Finally, if you believe that all professed Christians must perfectly follow Christ (not the bible stupid), then you utterly miss the point of mankind needing a savior.

If you hate Christian philosophy and accept Islam's claim to superiority, voted for Obama and refuse to acknowledge the war on Radical Islam you must be just another stupid Progressive.

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

Are you KKKH1's brother professor? Because you both have trouble with reading comprehension.

I said nothing about what you are ranting about.

The point you ignore is that people's actions are more important than what you think their actions should be based on what you think they believe.

The smart strategy is to target the enemy, and keep the rest of your resources safe.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Why, Lord, do we have to suffer fool's gladly? You might wish to consider an alternative to my reading comprehension and that is your ability to succinctly put forth a cogent thought and then hold on to that thought being discussed instead of taking a side trip. Let me simplify this for you........you don't make sense.

Does this sentence you made make sense to you? "The point you ignore is that people's actions are more important than what you think their actions should be based on what you think they believe."

I believe that radical Islam murdering Coptic Christians Sunday was based on their believing their actions were justified based on their religion. I further believe a radical Muslim would agree with me and, reading your comments, would shake his head and proclaim, "another stupid progressive infidel. I will "keel" you!"

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

Are you being purposely dense?

Of the 1.6 Billion Muslims, how many bombed the Coptic Churchs? A handful? Maybe 20? (That's 1.25 E-8%)

Let me break this down, and clarify it for you: "The point you ignore is that people's actions are more important than what you think their actions should be based on what you think they believe."

* People's actions kill people. What they think or believe does not. Therefore, their actions are much more important to me than their beliefs.
* You don't know what 1.6 Billion Muslims believe, and have no power to affect their beliefs. Therefore, what you think they believe is irrelevant.
* You are not their Imam or Caliph, therefore what you think a Muslim should do in accordance to the Muslim faith is irrelevant.

Look at it this way....

It's a known fact proven to 100% absolute certainty that the vast-vast-vast majority of Muslims are not participating in terrorism.
Right?

Now.... What are the possibilities?

1. They wish they could participate in terrorism, but don't have the means.
2. They're really bad Muslims because they don't want to commit terrorism, beat their wives, or rape their goats.
3. They're pretty good Muslims, but will not commit terrorism.
4. They're really not Muslims. They pretend to be Muslim to avoid being murdered by Muslims.
5. They know more about the religion they grew up with than you do, and you're not a freaking expert after all.

The most important part of this answer is that the answer doesn't change reality.

My solution is simple - Stop people that threaten Americans by the most effective means necessary.

What is your solution to the 1.6 Billion threats you worry about?

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

-----------
When I visited the mosques, I had been invited to visit by some of my co-workers. Remember? I mentioned, earlier, that I've had "Christian vs. Muslim" discussions with them? So, I didn't need to announce I was an infidel. Everyone there already knew it. Plus, I carried-in my Bible and was wearing a finger-ring that had a cross design on it. The ring drew a lot of curious attention. BTW, I was treated with respect and kindness, and not threatened in any way. I found my visits to be very enlightening experiences. Unlike you, who wants to keep himself wrapped-up in his ignorance-based hatred, I look for ways to learn about people from different cultures and faiths.

If you care to take the time to read my notes, taken from my discussion group, you might be enlightened as to how "everyday" Muslims think about what their Quran says about killing non-believers. Also, if you claim to be a Christian, how closely do you follow the rules set out in Deuteronomy? Do you kill you kids for back-talking you?

Due to length, the notes are in a separate post.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

AB's notes:
Discussion question: "Does Islam’s 'Quran' say to kill people or is that just an 'interpretation?'"

Below are 7 answers/comments to that question, taken from notes, taken from discussion meetings, with Muslim ( & a former-Muslim) co-workers.

1. LIKE EVERY OTHER RELIGION, ISLAM ISN’T UNIFORM,
by Abrihim al Salidori
Well, it’s complicated.
There are some verses, called ‘Sword Verses’. For example- chapter 9 (At-Tawba), verse 5:
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

This and similar verses were used to justify the Muslim expansions into the rest of the Middle East- so it’s hardly a non-traditional reading.

In the modern sense- there was a major shift in the 1950’s with the writings of Sayyid Qutb. He, essentially, preached what we see today in Jihadists.

You know how people say ‘Jihad is an internal or defensive struggle’? That’s a pre-Qutb interpretation. Qutb wrote that Jihad is an offensive struggle- not an entirely new idea, but popularized by him. Consider, for analogy that while there were many critics of the Catholic Church before Luther, he really kicked the whole thing off.

Fundamentalist Salafism (or Wahhabism) became closely associated with Qutb’s writings in the 70’s. Bin Laden and ISIS are closely associated with this strand of Islam- which is fundamentalist Sunni, essentially.

Of course, Iran is Shia- however, Ali Shariati, one of the fundamental philosophers of the Iranian revolution, preached something very similar- it’s unclear how much influence Qutb had on Shariati- however, given that Qutb’s writings were extremely influential already at the time that he was studying in the late fifties and sixties, he almost certainly would have encountered them.

Notably, although Shia, Shariati is very popular among some Sunnis.

Further, the current Ayatollah, Khamenei, translated Qutb’s works into Persian, and is considered to be very influenced by their teachings.

Sorry for that side jaunt, but it’s necessary to understand that this question depends on who you’re asking-Modern islamists, in both Sunni and Shia, as influenced by Qutb and Shariati, are quite clear that yes, offensive Jihad and killing the infidel are acceptable. More liberal and some more traditional movements say it is not.

Currently, it should also be noted that Qutbism and Shariatism are extremely popular among many powerful and influential groups in the Middle East- so attempts to dismiss it as a “tiny group” or a few radicals are extremely mistaken.

2. ISLAM IS NO MORE VIOLENT THAN CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM WERE
By, Ali Defifi
It does, but so do all holy books in the Abrahamic tradition, including the Bible.
It’s not about what your holy book says, therefore. It’s about how seriously and literally you take it. I don’t personally know any Jews who force their women to live elsewhere during their period, or stone anyone who’s worked on the Sabbath, and for that matter I know very few Christians who give unto Caesar without bitching about it, or who turn the other cheek.

There’s a great deal of focus lately on specific passages in the Qur’an, but what’s actually relevant is what any given person makes of those passages. You can find literalists and extremists in any faith tradition, and will if you look hard enough.
The reason people are talking about this is that they’re – very understandably – trying to decide for themselves if they should have a reason to feel differently towards Muslims than towards other people of devout faith. The answer is unfortunately a bit complicated, but history teaches some lessons about it.

The ancient world, during which much of the Old Testament takes place, was a time of great violence over much of the known world, and the ancient Jews frequently waged violent wars of conquest and domination. (To be fair, they were not alone in that. Indeed, everyone seemed to be doing something like that.) The first Muslim caliphate took over much of that same part of the world, also mostly by violence, eventually expanding into the Ottoman Empire, which survived into the early years of the last century. And around a thousand years ago, Christians of Europe waged a series of attempted conquests of the same area, known as the Crusades, also for religious reasons. All of them racked up impressive body counts.

To paint all Muslims of today with broad strokes is as fallacious as painting all of any other large group the same way. There are over one and a half billion Muslims in the world today, spread through most of the world, observing numerous denominations (or none). To suggest they all read the Qur’an the same way is clearly ignorant; if that were true, there’d be only one denomination. It’s the same reason there are several different Jewish denominations, and countless Christian ones: They do not all agree on it, but instead have numerous different interpretations.

If you delve into the ancient books of any Abrahamic faith tradition, or even just study their documented history of the last few millennia, you’re going to find a lot of blood. That is not specifically relevant to those living in modern times. The vast majority of Jews, Christians, and Muslims are not violent people and have no interest in revisiting the barbarity of ancient times.

3. YOUNG MUSLIMS MUST SEE THE WEST AS AGGRESSORS
by Abdul Salazar
I admittedly don’t know much about the Muslim texts, but there’s a huge part of this that I think people are missing it. Everyone is posting the interpretations that they know or have found which all say things like only attack when being attacked and cease when they cease to fight.

The problem is that these brainwashed young men in ISIS truly do believe that they are constantly being attacked and constantly being oppressed by America and the “Western Culture.” While we don’t have “open war” going on currently, we have troops on the ground and we’ve had our hand in the business over there for years now. I know we’re doing good, the world knows we’re doing good; but they see it as non-believers going into their homeland and fucking shit up. So they want to fight back. I’m not justifying anything but from their perspective a lot of these guys are just defending their land, their religion, and their independence. It’s extremely ill-informed and ridiculous but this is why and how it’s happening.

Unfortunately I don’t know if it can ever change. Religion is a powerful thing and it makes people believe things that may seem ridiculous or just simply wrong. As long as they believe their God is telling them this, they will continue to do it, no matter the level of enlightenment and education we can provide.

4. EVERYONE JUSTIFIES THEIR OWN ACTIONS, ISLAM IS NO DIFFERENT by Muhammad al Aliki
Short answer: Yes the Quran does indeed condone violence against non-believers, oppressors, aggressors, and so on though generally says that believers should be spared.

Slightly more lengthy answer: When asked this question or it gets brought up I usually reference 2;190-193 in the Quran.
2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.
2.191. Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing. Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you; but if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers.
2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.
2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

Now in part this can be seen as talking about a “defensive” war, about fighting aggressors, oppressors, etc. Yet when we look at the historical context of the verses this is talking about the Muslims who are in Medina fighting the non-Muslims in Mecca (which they would eventually defeat, capture, and turn Mecca into their holiest city).
The most basic concept presented is, “don’t fight unjustly” basically don’t be a douchebag when you fight, don’t salt the earth, kill the livestock, and burn the villages to the ground. Spare those who repent, that if a person accepts the word of Allah they should be spared (though still punished under law for their crimes which might result in execution), that the fighting ends when only believers remain.

We can actually see these ideals in action in history during the Islamic Conquests. From about 635 AD to 736 AD nearly a fully century of conquests Islam and the caliphate (theocratic Islamic empire) spread its authority throughout the Middle East conquering nearly everything in their way.

Basically at one point Islam as a “government” ruled Medina and that was basically it. Then they conquered Mecca and controlled most of what is today Saudi Arabia. From there the Islamic Conquests in the centuries following the death of the prophet led to the Caliphate basically ruling what we know today as the Middle East, and a rather large segment of North Africa among other territory.

These conquests, conquering territory, fighting, and leading great armies, etc, were carried out by the Prophet when he led the people to take Mecca and by his followers and successors in leading the Muslim people after his death, these were people who literally spoke, ate, drank, etc with the prophet they had first hand knowledge of the prophet’s thoughts, ideas, actions many were related by marriage if not blood, like they married a cousin, were someone’s uncle, etc. These people founded an empire by conquering their neighbors in warfare, by having an effective standing army to expand their control.

Often times “justifications” were and are used, and this something not limited to Islamic history but everyone’s history. The Arabian tribes betrayed us, X people don’t let muslims worship in their lands, etc. Just like Pearl Harbor was used as justification for the US to get involved with Germany somehow instead of just fighting in the Pacific against Japan.

Interjection by AS & AD; Yes the Quran condones killing people especially non-believers or those they consider aggressors, oppressors, etc. It also talks about forgiveness, striving for peace, and other things. That said the Prophet and the people who knew the Prophet led long lasting conquering campaigns that formed the Islamic empire and they did this through warfare, killing, and fighting. They claimed it was justified, but everyone claims their actions are justified including terrorists today, government years ago, and even the random thief who broke into a house will justify his actions.

5. IT’S ABSOLUTELY ABOUT INTERPRETATION
by Fatima Cecolpa
You’re asking an impossible question. It doesn’t matter what the actual words are, everything is up to interpretation. Show me the most black and white example of advocating violence in any holy book, and I’ll show you someone who insists it’s a parable for something else. Show me the most harmless and innocuous verse in the same holy book, and I’ll show you the person who thinks it advocates genocide.
Text is irrelevant, the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, whatever aren’t math textbooks where there is no room for interpretation. The words don’t matter, the person reading them does.

6. THE QUR’AN ADVOCATES KILLING NON-BELIEVERS, WITHOUT RESERVATION
by Jimmy Ramson (a new convert to Islam)
The quran is OK with killing people who deserve death, but it explicitly states that killing the “innocent” is completely forbidden. This is where people get misinformed, and how deception gets spread: The “innocent” is not what you think it is. The innocent by the definition given in the Quran are strict Muslims. It explicitly goes into detail about what makes you not innocent. If you believe in other religions or are atheist, you are not innocent. If you are unclean, eat banned foods, you are not innocent. If you do not abide by the sexual rules laid out in the Quran, you are not innocent. If you do not do your duty of prayer, fasting, and mosque attending, you are no innocent. So on and so forth. If you are not innocent, you are not protected by the book. In some regards you have a chance to become “innocent” and convert but if you do not you should not live– according the Quran. Many of the innocence breaking acts are immediately punishable by death.

There are over 100 verses in the Quran that deal with violence and killing the non-innocent. So yes, it actually says to kill people. It would be much more difficult to interpret the Quran as a peaceful book rather than a violent one. Muhammed himself had numerous people brutally killed because they spoke out against him. He is “Gods ideal man.” The same man who wed and bred and 8 year old child.

Make no mistake, if one was to truly follow the Muslim way, they have a duty to convert or kill non-believers and the cleanse the earth of those who are breaking holy law.

7. AS A MUSLIM, THIS SCARES ME
by Salamon Pezera
As a Muslim, this discussion scares me at how negatively it paints me. Honestly, If you want to know about something that is allegedly supposed to give meaning to your whole life and existence, please don’t draw conclusions on things based on what you read in an Internet thread… I’m not going to go into it because frankly, its very long and complex.

And for those that say that its because i’m part of the “liberal few” or a part of some group that doesn’t understand my own religion well enough, I have to say that I disagree. I’ve devoted my life to knowing my religion, not a few hours or weeks or months. Ultimately, you’re free to think whatever you’d like, but either way, I’m very sorry you feel this way.

But if I can leave you with one thing, please understand that there are almost 2 billion Muslims in the world, basically a quarter of the planet. If all of us were as bad as this thread makes me seem, I’m sure the world be a lot worse than it is.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Islam was born in violence. It forced it's faith with a sword. It made converts by the sword. From the time of it's founding by an illiterate pedophile, who could never have written the Koran, (no one knows what is the true Koran) it has periodically raised it's ugly head to slaughter the innocent and those who refused to convert and had to be put down with greater violence. If only 10% are the radicals, as we observe today, we are still speaking of millions of radical jihadists. When Mohammed thought his religion would be accepted as legitimate by Jews and Christians he was benevolent towards them as brothers of The Book. When they rejected him as a false prophet he turned on them and huge portions of the so called "religion of peace" enslaved them, taxed them obsessively, and murdered them in the name of Allah. The goal remains, world domination! Even so called moderate Muslims refuse to openly denounce radical islam in large numbers. If moderate Muslims cannot influence them what do you suggest the Western world, the Christian world, do to control them? Only one thing has ever worked, kill them, but a piece of the corrupt body always survives to infect again. It's an age old story. They do not assimilated in western society and they should be denied entry into western nations. Now I understand that policy seems totally unreasonable and unAmerican to you but it will not be the first time leftists have used our constitution against us. Besides, they will vote for Democrats. But of course that means nothing to Progressives. It's the principle. Right? There are many reasons the traditional Americans elected President Trump. There are many known Muslim military training facilities in America today and Saudi Arabia has established many radical Madras' here in America. They don't teach a religion of peace.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

padre,
You relish in the delusion that Christianity is/was "peacefully" accepted by so many non-Christians, don't you. Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but millions of people's were forced into "believing" in the Christian God. Our religion's history is just as replete with examples of terrorism, murder, rape, torture, pillage, and plunder as the Muslim history is. I mentioned earlier about your looking for the splinter in the Muslim's eye when you have a log in yours. But, you're so blinded by your hate, you can't even see the same thing in yourself.

You stated, "If moderate Muslims cannot influence them what do you suggest the Western world, the Christian world, do to control them? Only one thing has ever worked, kill them, but a piece of the corrupt body always survives to infect again. It's an age old story. They do not assimilated in western society and they should be denied entry into western nations. Now I understand that policy seems totally unreasonable and unAmerican to you but it will not be the first time leftists have used our constitution against us. Besides, they will vote for Democrats. But of course that means nothing to Progressives. It's the principle. Right? There are many reasons the traditional Americans elected President Trump. There are many known Muslim military training facilities in America today and Saudi Arabia has established many radical Madras' here in America."

Do you not understand English? Did you not read my posts? IF Muslims are as dangerous and are the 'killing machines' you think they are, then, how-in-the-hell did I live through working with them for so many YEARS, and talking to so many of them on the topic of their own religion? During those years and instances, I was alone with several of them, and for quite lengthy periods of time. They could've taken me out at anytime. But, they DIDN'T. I was never threatened or harmed in any way. After work, some of my Muslim co-workers and I shared meals together. One of them even went to a bar and had a few drinks with me, on multiple occasions. (I suppose, you could say that, like so many Christians, he wasn't such a 'strong adherent' to his religion, too.)

By your myopic and black/white standards, at those times we were together, either I should've killed them or they should've killed me. I can't tell them what their religion should or should not dictate for them to do or not do. MY Christian religion says that I'm to love my neighbor as myself and that I'm to treat my neighbor as I want to be treated. (Perhaps, you should go back and re-read those passages that reference those actions. HINT: They're in the New Testament.)

As to Muslims NOT assimilating into American society; other than their names, I seriously doubt YOU would be able to tell what the religion was of those I spoke about; especially the blond-haired, blue-eyed guy who had recently converted to Islam. BTW, he's not the one who went out drinking with me. It was one who actually wore a head-scarf, or keffiyeh, as he called it. And, yes, he got lots of looks from the other patrons and we left without any disturbances caused by ignorant, non-Muslims. But, I digress.

If you were to go into the homes of these people, you'd be hard-pressed to see much in the way of Muslim-centered furnishings. There are the usual styles and designs of tables, chairs, sofas, lamps, recliners, TVs, and kitchen appliances, to name a few.

Everyone one of these Muslims, with the exception of the recent convert, were naturalized U.S. citizens, who'd been here for 20+ years. (The recent convert was born here.) Every one were proud to be citizens and 3 had even fought in our armed forces; 2 being awarded Bronze Stars and and one of them, a Purple Heart, too.

So yea, I'll take our Constitution and use it to beat you profusely about your head and shoulders. You and your holier-than-thou attitude about liberals, Democrats, Muslims, and any other group you're currently afraid of; painting them all with the same broad brush-stroke. All you've shown to us is just how totally ignorant your are about politics, our Constitution, and religion, yours and theirs.

So, padre, you just keep on shaking in your boots every time you hear the word, "Muslim," and crapping in your pants every time you see one, out of fear they'll try to kill you.

Me? I'm going to keep-on, keeping-on. I'm going to treat everyone like I want to be treated and not assume the worst, unless, I see YOU, first.

Then, I'll level my sights on you and follow your every move. Why? Because you're too scared to react in an appropriate manner. You're too afraid someone's out to get you. You're so afraid, you'll probably shoot one of your own family members out of mistaken identity. You're simply too dangerous to be allowed to wander the streets without armed supervision.

For proof, you say there are camps, in the U.S., where Islamic terrorist are being trained. That makes you just as nutty as a fruitcake. There ARE terrorists training camps in the US. But, they are training the far-right, terrorist/nut-jobs, like you, to fight against the government and Constitution you claim to love, yet so often denounce.

I challenge you to identify the number and locations of these "Muslim" training camps. And, counting US military bases where military personnel from friendly Muslim countries are being trained in US-supplied weapons systems, doesn't count.

Oh, and just so you know, MOST "traditional Americans" didn't vote for Trump. He LOST the popular vote by over 3,000,000 votes. He DID win the Electorial College, though. I will give him that. But, I, as well as many GOPTPers, strongly suspect Russian interference in our election process. Time will tell if Trumpet makes it through his first term without being impeached.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

The things you think you know that are skewed from your own bias. No doubt Christianity has experience some times in her history that are certainly not Christian. But Christianity has done more for humanity than any other faith. The 20th century witnessed more Christian martyrs than the sum total of all Christian martyrs in the previous 19 centuries - virtually unreported. Many of them killed by Muslims. Not nearly as many Christians were "forced" into Christianity as you claim. It is against the Christian faith to force people to believe in Christ. When in early Europe, for example, a king accepted Christianity many of his subject were forced into the faith but this was the exception, not the rule. No other religion, not even the Jews, have been persecuted for their faith and martyred as have been Christians. When the Jesuits missionaries went into the new world their conversions were not forced. When China opened her doors to Christian misionaries in 60 years they converted one million Chinese. When the Chinese began persecuting Christians there were 20 million converts in a decade. Christianity is a force for goodness more than anything else in the entire world.

I thought I made it clear that only 10% of Muslims are thought to be radical so why do you think I believe all are evil? Many assimilate but they also congregate in their their own communities in many American cities and Sharia law is being practiced in places as well as honor killings. You want to know training sites? Check the internet. Prisoners are being converted to radical Islam and those prisons are breeding grounds for future trouble. You failed to address the Saudi Madras'

How many American military have been systematically murdered by Muslim soldiers embedded with our troops who, without warning turned on them and began shooting them? And how can we forget an American major psychiatrist, born and raised in America, who suddenly turned and killed many of our troops or the black American Muslim who tossed a grenade into a tent in Iraq filled with American officers? There are many more of these sort of incidents.

While you were still in your nappies I was in Vietnam. I served my 20 years but if I had know then that people like you would tear down the basic fabric of "traditional" America morals and values I would gladly have been fighting you instead. You were the greater enemy. You remain as such. Yes, Trump lost the popular vote but only because the extreme leftists in California and New York make up so much of their population. You have lost approximately 1050 elected radicals since Obama was elected. A color coded map, red and blue states, is definitive on where the sympathies of traditional American lay. You lose, we win. Do you know how few counties Hillary won? It is embarrassing. The stupid Russian connection is a ruse to distract simpletons as to why Hillary lost. It gets you distracted but that is so easy to do.

Finally, you should understand that I've seen too much in my long life to live in fear. And I'm always prepared to kill any threat. You'll find that a common attribute amongst traditional Americans.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

-----------------
In spite of our political differences, I still want to thank you for your service!

"... while [I] was in my nappies ... ." Boy, did you ever miss the boat. I, too, served. But "over" Vietnam. I was a Naval Flight Officer, assigned to the VF-161, aboard the USS Midway (CV-41), as a RIO on a "Rhino" or "double-ugly" (F-4 Phantom). I was on my 3rd mission when we were hit by a SAM. We ejected and I was fished out of the water, about 150-200 yards from the NV shore; thanks to a Rescue Chopper and a gunship keeping the NVA soldiers who were using me for target practice, at bay. Sadly, my pilot didn't make it. He was vaporized, along with the nose of the aircraft. Shortly thereafter, I left the Navy.

That said, you failed to mention the Spanish Inquisition, where THOUSANDS of "heretics" were tortured and killed. You forgot to mention what the Conquistadors did to the native Indian population when they arrived in the New World, in search of gold and silver. How many hundreds of thousands of native Americans were tortured, enslaved and killed, just to enrich the coffers of Europe? You failed to mention, too, how the "white man's diseases" like measles, mumps, and smallpox decimated entire tribes and cultures.

In your listing of religious-based atrocities by Christians, i noticed you forgot to mention, too, the persecution the Pilgrams, French Hugonauts, Puritans, Anabaptists, Quakers, Presbyterians, and Mennonites. How about the persecution of Lutherns?

Hell, even after the Puritans arrived in the New World, they, themselves, persecuted whomever they believed to be "heretics" to their own religion. How was Rhode Island founded? By Roger Williams, of whom he and his followers were expelled from the Massachusetts Bay Colony (Puritans) and founded Rhode Island.

As a side-note, are you aware that when Columbus first landed, there were 10-12 MILLION native Americans living in the northern part of the Western Hemisphere? Are you aware that by 1900, that number had fallen to around 800,000? Whar'd da go?

Speaking of the English colonies, how did they treat the natives? About a hundred years after the arrival of the Spanish, other European Christians, i.e. the English and French, reported many good relations with the native locals and between the Roman Catholics and Anglicans who inhabited Maryland. The vast negative opinion of the Native Americans took a larger and stronger hold from both secular and religious groups. Even the famous John Smith said many bad things about the Native Americans. While Smith describes their characteristics (brown, strong, agile, cleanly shaven, etc.) he, nevertheless, calls them all “savage.” They decorated themselves with "barbaric ornaments and tattoos." (Sounds like many young people, today, huh?) Their methods of building and living greatly differed from European traditions. But, what interested Smith the most about the Natives was their form of government and religion. He commented, “there is yet in Virginia no place discovered to bee so Savage in which the Savages have not religion...But their chiefe God they worship is the Divell [Devil].”

Interestingly, some colonists deeply enjoyed the Native way of life and fully embraced it. One of the reasons why colonists, who either ran away or refused to be free from capture, was because the Native Americans enjoyed a “most perfect freedom, the ease of living, [and] the absence of those cares and corroding solicitudes which to often prevail us all.”

Histories from the Puritans living among the Natives did not portray them in a positive light. For instance, the letter of Mary Rowlandson, 1676, is a great example that portrays the key differences the Puritans had with the Native Americans than the other settlers. Rowlandson is taken prisoner among the local Natives and introduced into a "hellish world" for many weeks. She proclaims her faith got her through the struggle until she was ransomed. She reported the following in her book "Soveraignty and Goodness of God" (1682), “I may say, that as none knows what it is to fight and pursue such an enemy as this, but they that have fought and pursued them: so none can imagine what it is to be captivated, and enslaved to such atheisticall, proud, wild, cruel, barbarous, brutish (all in one word) diabolical creatures as these, the worst of the heathen."

Among the earliest of the harshest remarks about the Native Americans came from Christian sects, such as the Puritans, who saw themselves as those who would lead Native Americans "on the true path to God." Throughout the 16th century to the American Revolution, the goal of English missionaries was to reduce the Native Americans "from savagery to civility.”

The quickest way to do this was to rid the world of the savage, either by conversion or death. For the Puritan settlers, the entire planet already is their home and property. The Puritans had a strong belief that they were the true followers of God, and the New World was "God’s garden given to the Puritans." This can be seen by the words of John Winthrop, 1629: “...the whole earth is the Lord's garden, and he hath given it to the sons of Adam to be tilled and improved by them. Why then should we stand starving here for the places of habitation, (many men spending as much labor and cost to recover or keep sometimes an acre or two of lands as would procure him many hundreds of acres, as good or better, in another place,) and in the mean time suffer whole countries, as profitable for the use of man, to lie waste without any improvement. " Another example, John Winthrop wrote to an English friend about the earlier arrival of the Pilgrims who spread diseases amongst the local Natives, “the natives are neere all dead of the smalle Poxe, so as the Lord hathe cleared our title to what we posses." He goes in to say, "The Bible also commands that God's people should 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.'"

With this idea rooted into their beliefs, the Puritans were not hesitant in taking land to sustain them. However, acquiring land was not simple. The Puritans faced opposition from the Native Americans, who already claimed the land as their home. This was among the first and strongest reasons that caused the Puritans to deeply despise the Native Americans. The Puritans viewed any opposition to them in any fashion as a direct opposition to God, thus making the Native Americans "minions of Satan, himself."

The other greatest reason for the Puritan conception that the Native Americans were evil was simply because they were different in many respects. Virtually every piece of the Native American image inflamed Puritan disgust. Everything from the Native culture; their clothing made of the skins of reptiles, birds, and beasts; their ruling system; their women showing their breasts or too much skin; they decorated their flesh with tattoos and body paint; but among the first and most notable signs was the males with the long hair. Long hair, in the eyes of the Puritans, was a sign of pride. Pride was and is the worst of sins, even worse than Original Sin. Pride was displayed in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and thus doomed all of mankind, which is why pride is considered the worst of the Seven Deadly Sins. Of course, the Puritans despised anyone who grew their hair long, whether it be the savage Native Americans or other Europeans. Long hair to the Puritans was a “badge” of those who refused to cover themselves with Christian “humility, sobriety, modesty, [and] shamefastness.”

Of course, the Native Americans did not suffer only at the hands of the Puritans, but it was the Puritans' slander that caught a lot of attention. Papers were published in London as tales were spreading across the colonies and among the new arrivals. The labels the Puritans gave the Native Americans came to a long list, from calling them "beasts" and "inhuman" to "ungodly" and "demonic."

The Puritans felt it was their "Christian duty" to "reach out to the lost." "Saving" a Native American would mean "saving a soul from Satan," and destroying a Native American meant "destroying one of Satan’s minions." Puritans sent missionaries to reach out to the Native Americans. The Puritans were careful not to fall prey to the way of life or thinking of the Natives; and, went so far as to cover the sides and windows of their wagons to block their view of the trees so they would "not be tempted by paganism and savagism." The continuation of calling the Native Americans "demonic" had a huge influence on all types of people. Even civil rights activist Roger Williams (who also strove for savage rights) was revolted by Native Americans in their “hideous worships of creatures and devils.”

You know, padre, I could easily go on and on. But, I'll leave it at these few examples of "Christian love and charity" for our native populations.

You need to know that "traditional Americans" usually don't go around "ready for any threat." Most "traditional Americans" don't carry weapons and usually, don't feel there are threats worth being ready for. Also, "traditional Americans" are content to 'live and let live;' without the need to constantly be told that there is some boogie-man out to get them. All that does is create more pressure and anxiety and negative feelings toward people that may not have anything to do with one's fears. "Traditional Americans" are, also, willing to be grateful for the "rights" our Constitution gives us and for the "liberties" we enjoy.

I'm sorry you developed such a grand case of "optical-rectalitis." I hope you have a fast recovery, because unless you can get cured, that crappie outlook on life you seem to have, will only get worse.

"Traditional Americans" come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, colors, and beliefs. A sure-fired way to get over your illness is to learn to accept the fact that not everyone has to agree with you in order to be a "traditional American." A "traditional American" is one who knows and accepts that his views aren't the only ones who count. That even those in opposition to him have something of value to bring to the table. That the word "compromise" is still one of the most important words in our government, and that treating one another with respect and courtesy is a wonderful way to work together for the benefit of ALL of us, "traditional Americans."

Now, I didn't vote for Trumpet. I refused to vote for anyone who brags about gropping a woman's privates, shrugs-off his three divorces yet condemns the Clinton's marriage. Who claims to be the best at about everything, yet has bankrupted 4 companies, and who says he's "smart" because he doesn't pay any taxes. Who is doing his upmost to cover-up his Russian entanglements and has broken several laws regarding his personal holdings and his nepotism.

You our shouts to the rafters abou HRC and got nowhere. Trumpet's on the job 3 months and already you're overlooking every illegality he's done. You're a riot !

Docadhoc Loc: Elsewhere

There are violent screwballs in every walk of life. In every ethnicity. And in every religion.

The point is that the Christian bible does not order Christians to enslave or murder non Christians. The only "holy book" ordering that behavior is the Qur'an.

In all other cases and scenarios you are dealing with people who have an extreme and incorrect position regarding non believers. With Muslims, their holy book orders them to kill. It is not a case of extremes or misinterpreting the book. The Qur'an specifically orderes the behavior and specifically tells Muslims how to kill including methods of murder. And instructs Muslims to lie.

You say you have had good experiences with Muslims. Good. Now tell me how they can be Muslim and disobey the specific order to kill?

This isn't a matter of a Christian violating a commandment such as committing adultery. This is a direct order to kill.

If there is a significant portion of Islam who refuses to obey that order, why do they still call themselves Muslim, and why have they not come forward teaching the public the difference between themselves and their violent members? Why aren't they pointing out the violent ones to the authorities?

Sorry but you cannot compare a Christian's disobedience with the mandate to kill. For "peaceful" Muslims to sit and watch the violence and do nothing to curb it makes them as guilty as if they had killed in person.

And Islam teaches that all believers must convert non believers or kill them. That is not a religion. That is the model for world conquest and if you study their history it becomes readily apparent that world domination is Islam's only goal.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

-------------


Below, are but a FEW references to killing non-believers, from the Old and New Testament.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.”  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.  As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.  Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies.  So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever.  Amen.  That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires.  Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.  And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other.  Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.  When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.  Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.  They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful.  They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.  They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.  They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway.  And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT

For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites.  You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment.  They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it.  Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again.  Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever.  It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.  Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Moses stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came.  He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.”  The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day.  Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women.  These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab.  Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD’s anger to blaze against his people.  The LORD issued the following command to Moses: “Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel.”  So Moses ordered Israel’s judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor.  Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle.  When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly.  Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach.  So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people (Israelites) had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

padre, I can easily list many more biblical examples of God ordering the killing of non-believers, not just sinners. I suggest you do some serious reading/re-reading of your Bible.

As to why the Islamic moderates don't do more to stop the radicals, re-read my previous responses. I've already addressed that, at least twice.