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Truthiness (another reason atheists talk about gods)
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Jul 14, 2016 11:05:03   #
Singularity
 
https://nukeexcathedra.jottit.com/2011-08-01%3A_the_inherent_immorality_of_religions

The moral obligation to truth

William Clifford's essay The Ethics of Belief illustrates how it is every human's moral obligation to assure himself of the truthfulness of his beliefs. Highly recommended reading!

Alan Sokal says similar things in a different way:

If you are sloppy about evaluating evidence, then you are ethically liable for the mistakes that you’ve made. (~45:00 mark) The main point is … it’s important when you make claims about factual matters in the world, to understand clearly what is the evidence on which those claims are based and to and try evaluate that evidence as impartially as possible. (~45:50 mark)

Source: http://colinmarshall.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=404357

So if someone ignores or rejects the best available evidence -- or worse, they preemptively reject it -- then they are making an ethical error, not just a factual one.

How to find the truthiest truth

How can we arrive at the "truest" truth possible, the most credible assertions about reality? Let's look at what epistemology has to say about our mechanisms of quality control for beliefs. This is pretty standard philosophic fare, but I'm taking the following list from Sense & Goodness (pp. 53-60). Here, in descending order of reliability, are the methods of discovering truth, with summarized explanations:

The method of reason. Within the realms of logic and mathematics, reasoning leads to the broadest, most complete and most consistent success. Basically, a proof based on reasoning, unless it contains errors, leads with certainty to a solidly correct result. Alas, pure reason only works this way on abstract concepts. Out in the real world, we need other methods:

The method of science. Science is actually a collection of methods that take all the other methods of finding the truth and works very hard at quality control to achieve the highest standard of truth about reality attainable outside the method of pure reason.

The method of experience. "Seeing is believing," so this method is "better" than anything that comes below. But human observation is open to some errors, such as hallucination or misperception, that make one's own experience less reliable than experience validated by scientific investigation.

The method of history. If we can't observe an event ourselves, as is the case with historic events, our best bet is to apply critical historical analysis on reports from the past. We look for the most reliable sources and corroborate their information with other information, and that's the best we can do for past events.

The method of expert testimony. If we don't ourselves have direct access to sources of information, we can consult experts for their knowledge and interpretation. That's essentially applying methods 2 through 4 second-hand. This method can be strengthened by ensuring our expert has the qualifications, agreement with other experts and so forth.

The method of plausible inference. If we have incomplete facts, it's permissible to try to reach generalizations from those, if we're careful. Inductive logic, extrapolation, and interpolation of evidence and facts is how this is done. Sometimes this is the best we can do, but where one of the above methods is available, we should scrap our results for those from the "better" method.

The method of pure faith. To quote Carrier: "... refers to basing beliefs solely on tradition, hearsay, desire or mere speculation. That is, faith in this sense is trusting what we are told, or just 'guess' or want to be true, without requiring any proof. In other words, believing an ungrounded assertion."

The wording of this last and least trustworthy method of arriving at ideas about the world of course leads us into... religion.

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Jul 14, 2016 12:36:33   #
mwdegutis Loc: Illinois
 
Singularity wrote:
https://nukeexcathedra.jottit.com/2011-08-01%3A_the_inherent_immorality_of_religions

The moral obligation to truth

William Clifford's essay The Ethics of Belief illustrates how it is every human's moral obligation to assure himself of the truthfulness of his beliefs. Highly recommended reading!

Alan Sokal says similar things in a different way:

If you are sloppy about evaluating evidence, then you are ethically liable for the mistakes that you’ve made. (~45:00 mark) The main point is … it’s important when you make claims about factual matters in the world, to understand clearly what is the evidence on which those claims are based and to and try evaluate that evidence as impartially as possible. (~45:50 mark)

Source: http://colinmarshall.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=404357

So if someone ignores or rejects the best available evidence -- or worse, they preemptively reject it -- then they are making an ethical error, not just a factual one.

How to find the truthiest truth

How can we arrive at the "truest" truth possible, the most credible assertions about reality? Let's look at what epistemology has to say about our mechanisms of quality control for beliefs. This is pretty standard philosophic fare, but I'm taking the following list from Sense & Goodness (pp. 53-60). Here, in descending order of reliability, are the methods of discovering truth, with summarized explanations:

The method of reason. Within the realms of logic and mathematics, reasoning leads to the broadest, most complete and most consistent success. Basically, a proof based on reasoning, unless it contains errors, leads with certainty to a solidly correct result. Alas, pure reason only works this way on abstract concepts. Out in the real world, we need other methods:

The method of science. Science is actually a collection of methods that take all the other methods of finding the truth and works very hard at quality control to achieve the highest standard of truth about reality attainable outside the method of pure reason.

The method of experience. "Seeing is believing," so this method is "better" than anything that comes below. But human observation is open to some errors, such as hallucination or misperception, that make one's own experience less reliable than experience validated by scientific investigation.

The method of history. If we can't observe an event ourselves, as is the case with historic events, our best bet is to apply critical historical analysis on reports from the past. We look for the most reliable sources and corroborate their information with other information, and that's the best we can do for past events.

The method of expert testimony. If we don't ourselves have direct access to sources of information, we can consult experts for their knowledge and interpretation. That's essentially applying methods 2 through 4 second-hand. This method can be strengthened by ensuring our expert has the qualifications, agreement with other experts and so forth.

The method of plausible inference. If we have incomplete facts, it's permissible to try to reach generalizations from those, if we're careful. Inductive logic, extrapolation, and interpolation of evidence and facts is how this is done. Sometimes this is the best we can do, but where one of the above methods is available, we should scrap our results for those from the "better" method.

The method of pure faith. To quote Carrier: "... refers to basing beliefs solely on tradition, hearsay, desire or mere speculation. That is, faith in this sense is trusting what we are told, or just 'guess' or want to be true, without requiring any proof. In other words, believing an ungrounded assertion."

The wording of this last and least trustworthy method of arriving at ideas about the world of course leads us into... religion.
https://nukeexcathedra.jottit.com/2011-08-01%3A_th... (show quote)

You're nothing but a one-trick pony.

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Jul 14, 2016 13:36:11   #
Singularity
 
mwdegutis wrote:
You're nothing but a one-trick pony.
Notice in the illustration below, the door is closed?

Should I come to prayer group 7 and tell them they are ignorant animals?

Why are you here? What more about this subject, rational proofs, do you have to add?

Or do you wish to explore the reasoning behind religion being excluded from a discussion of rational truthiness?

Or do you wish to derail the topic from that specified to that which is specifically, pointedly, excluded? Because we have been here, done this. Is getting its ass handed back to it your only pony's one trick?

I like you better when you are covering your ass, instead of showing it.





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Jul 14, 2016 13:54:33   #
mwdegutis Loc: Illinois
 
Singularity wrote:
Notice in the illustration below, the door is closed?

Should I come to prayer group 7 and tell them they are ignorant animals?

Why are you here? What more about this subject, rational proofs, do you have to add?

Or do you wish to explore the reasoning behind religion being excluded from a discussion of rational truthiness?

Or do you wish to derail the topic from that specified to that which is specifically, pointedly, excluded? Because we have been here, done this. Is getting its ass handed back to it your only pony's one trick?

I like you better when you are covering your ass, instead of showing it.
Notice in the illustration below, the door is clos... (show quote)

I am perfectly within my rights to be here...unless that is you choose to ignore me.

And you're still a one-trick pony.

Reply
Jul 14, 2016 14:03:19   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Here's a bit of untruthiness: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article88765622.html

If anything, it proves it didn't happen. I love it.

Reply
Jul 14, 2016 14:24:24   #
Singularity
 
mwdegutis wrote:
I am perfectly within my rights to be here...unless that is you choose to ignore me.

And you're still a one-trick pony.

It is never wise to ignore the power of one who enlists dishonest methods in his dealings with himself and others.

You have not yet scratched the surface of my resources!

I am being consistant with you and keep asking for consistancy and respect from you.

You keep replying that I can't boss you around. (I thought at first you just liked a little S&M in your social discourse and obliged, but that went to hell in a handbasket in a nanosecond!)

In fact you clearly and consistantly insist that not even your God Almighty can stop you from returning to reiterate the same hubris in direct defiance of your Celestial Marching Orders from one you claim to represent! That is some trick!

So I will not try to fool myself into thinking it is possible for me to prevent you from being here. I just can't think of anything else to ask you other than my sincerely amazed repeating question, "Why are you here?"

We keep coming to this same impasse.

I am still waiting for you to answer why you are here as is your perfect right, except for the Christ Jesus's' command to all Christians to behave in a definite prescribed manner in such circumstances!



Reply
Jul 14, 2016 14:29:24   #
mwdegutis Loc: Illinois
 
Singularity wrote:
...The method of pure faith. To quote Carrier: "... refers to basing beliefs solely on tradition, hearsay, desire or mere speculation. That is, faith in this sense is trusting what we are told, or just 'guess' or want to be true, without requiring any proof. In other words, believing an ungrounded assertion."

The wording of this last and least trustworthy method of arriving at ideas about the world of course leads us into... religion.

Do you want to know what the “truest” truth is? I’m not basing it on “tradition, hearsay, desire or mere speculation.” I’m basing it the words inspired by the Holy Spirit. He is trustworthy – “But (I) have received the Holy Spirit, and He lives within (me), so (I) don’t need anyone to teach (me) what is true. For the Spirit teaches (me) everything (I) need to know, and what He teaches is true—it is not a lie.” And YOU will NEVER understand that truth unless you have a change of heart. I really don’t care what you think but Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, couldn’t have said it any better…

“But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”

And on that day, when you are kneeling in front of the God of the Universe declaring him Lord, you will realize that He indeed is…and then it will be too late.

Reply
 
 
Jul 14, 2016 15:24:14   #
mwdegutis Loc: Illinois
 
Singularity wrote:
It is never wise to ignore the power of one who enlists dishonest methods in his dealings with himself and others.

You have not yet scratched the surface of my resources!...

Are you speaking of yourself?

Reply
Jul 14, 2016 15:32:58   #
Singularity
 
mwdegutis wrote:
Do you want to know what the “truest” truth is? I’m not basing it on “tradition, hearsay, desire or mere speculation.” I’m basing it the words inspired by the Holy Spirit. He is trustworthy – “But (I) have received the Holy Spirit, and He lives within (me), so (I) don’t need anyone to teach (me) what is true. For the Spirit teaches (me) everything (I) need to know, and what He teaches is true—it is not a lie.” And YOU will NEVER understand that truth unless you have a change of heart. I really don’t care what you think but Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, couldn’t have said it any better…

“But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”

And on that day, when you are kneeling in front of the God of the Universe declaring him Lord, you will realize that He indeed is…and then it will be too late.
Do you want to know what the “truest” truth is? I’... (show quote)


And equally for you as long as you continue to God bother me.

Not only must you logically expect Hell for disobedience to the God's direct command, there is this as well.

(But seriously, Hell threats!?!

Seriously lame, dude!

So Santa will leave coal in my sock?

I have another few pair!)

If you persist in this God bothering I shall continue to demonstrate why you should stop.

Will you push self defense to the ultimate conclusion? Realize YOU are the aggressor here. You may tactfully withdraw, and I will be magnanimous and allow you ONE unpunished ad hominem as the door slams into your uncovered ass on your way out the door.

Come back to this impasse and I shall not be constrained. It will no longer be an impasse.

I shall be the finisher.

Reply
Jul 14, 2016 15:53:31   #
Singularity
 
mwdegutis wrote:
Are you speaking of yourself?

In creating this debate, as a public spectacle, you have made the powers that be, observing minds, the arbiter. So, enough trash talking and chest banging.

Mines bigger than yours! So, you get firsties.

Will you seek to discuss rational vs irrational proofs of truth claims? The relative position of generic religious belief based on faith in the rational v irrational paradigm? Or will you persist in your arm twisting for Jesus?

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Jul 14, 2016 16:13:21   #
Singularity
 
A change of avatars was necessary. It is less useful to reflect on butterflies and babies, expecting lovingkindness from others when faced by a ravening beast which seeks to annoy. More useful to inspect one's armour and subdue one's passion unless until a blow is stricken. Then reach for the flyswatter.

Reply
 
 
Jul 14, 2016 16:32:38   #
Singularity
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
Here's a bit of untruthiness: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article88765622.html

If anything, it proves it didn't happen. I love it.


It is difficult to discuss dry concepts and emotional attachment to concepts engenders the motivation and strength to debate and contend. Pictures and examples aid in focus.

The difficulty sometimes is that irrational minds confuse examples of the negative as positive invitations to contend and zero in, and a door closed by personal logical exclusion is sometimes mistaken to be persecutory instead of self inflicted.

Reply
Jul 14, 2016 16:43:26   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
You are referring to mw, of course. I have kept up with some of this.

I put up this link about the Kentucky Noah's ark. You should glance at the comments for entertainment purposes.

Reply
Jul 14, 2016 16:50:49   #
Singularity
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
You are referring to mw, of course. I have kept up with some of this.

I put up this link about the Kentucky Noah's ark. You should glance at the comments for entertainment purposes.


Check out my two previous threads, "puppetry" and "an antitheistic topic"!

Reply
Jul 15, 2016 07:48:44   #
bggamers Loc: georgia
 
mwdegutis wrote:
I am perfectly within my rights to be here...unless that is you choose to ignore me.

And you're still a one-trick pony.


patients is still a good thing mw dont loose hope. But one of the tool's that they use while they dig up the past is the bible they say it's been a very good map where some of these citys were and of course just because you cannt see it does not mean it doesnt exsist that why its called faith it has to be something you feel . From one of those people

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