mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

So I guess it's OK to do it illegally then? What a maroon! There's a reason it's a long and arduous process.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Yes. Immigration isn't the solution. If we want to help we go down there and kill off the cartels.

straightUp Loc: California

I didn't say it's OK... If anything, I am suggesting that it's understandable. It wasn't OK for Germans to hide Jews from the Nazi's either but I think it was understandable given the circumstances. It wasn't OK for the Sons of Liberty to dump tea in Boston Harbor either but again, I think it was understandable, given the circumstances. And yes, there are two reasons for the long, arduous process... bureaucracy and bigotry.

straightUp Loc: California

Well, that's a nice fantasy, but lets talk about reality... the cartels are there because of the American demand for illegal drugs. Even if we had the ability to "kill off the cartels" they would only be replaced by new cartels to meet that demand. In fact, it was the demise of the Colombian, Cali and Medellín cartels in the 1990s that fueled the rise of the Mexican cartels that now control the entire illicit drug trade which BTW, is estimated to be a $49.4 billion industry. In 2007, 90% of the cocaine imported to the U.S. and Canada was managed by the Mexican cartels.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/28/opinions/winslow-drug-war-folly/index.html

So maybe a better idea is to stop the idiot war on drugs that effectively hands the business over to these illegal cartels. The Washington Post reports that seizures of marijuana at the border are down 40% since several states in the U.S. have legalized it. Maybe we can learn something from that. For 13 years government forces failed to control the violent gangs that ran alcohol during prohibition but when we ended prohibition those gangs disappeared. Maybe we can learn something from THAT.

Also, the Mexican cartels are stateless, we called them Mexican because that's where they are but they are also illegal in Mexico and are certainly not an official part of the Mexican state so they are totally unresponsive to our typical sanction-based solutions and lets face it... Our military sucks at fighting stateless adversaries. It's been 15 years and billions of dollars since we invaded Afghanistan and we STILL haven't defeated the Taliban. Iraq is a total joke... After at least a decade and the sacrificial offering of our economy all we really got was the Green Zone and the new puppet government we put installed is still fighting ISIL for control of the oil fields. Maybe we can learn something from THAT.

Or maybe we can continue to be complete morons and make everything illegal so we can create conflicts that we continue to loose.

straightUp Loc: California

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Edit: In the above argument I am using the term "OK" to mean legal. And by "understandable", I am referring to common sense. The people can't tell the difference have their tongues firmly pressed against the anus of their masters.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

That's all true, but we can't just roll over.

The cartels are also Mafia. They demand payoff for "protection", from them.

For you Illuminati crazies, look to the cartels and their backers, their base. You'll find there is who they are, just another piece of somebodies huge pie.

straightUp Loc: California

If it works then why not? Is it a pride thing? Is there something you think we need to prove? Or are we actually trying to end the illicit drug trade that causes so many problems like excessive violence in Mexico and increased refugees at our border?


If you're referring to the Mexican Mafia, that's a crime organization based in the U.S. prison system. If we legalize drugs, we take the drug trade away from the cartels in Mexico, if we take the drug trade away from the cartels in Mexico we take the protection business away from the Mexican Mafia in the U.S. prisons. You see? We manufacture ALL these problems with our stupid rules. It's utterly senseless.


Not sure what you're actually saying here, but I'm not a conspiracy theorist and as far as I am concerned the conspiracies about the Illuminati are exaggerated. My position on THIS argument is based on known facts as I have listed them, to which you have agreed are true.

My argument is structurally no different than that of the gun-rights advocates who say the prohibition of guns would lead to a situation where only the criminals have guns, which I agree with. This is a general rule that applies to everything. You prohibit something, you create a black market. If there is a black market, there is a law that created it.

The closest I will come to a conspiracy theory is the suspicion that enforcing prohibitive laws is a profit-business and when you look at the earnings in the prison-industrial complex it's hard to call that a conspiracy.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

I think you're right about legalizing drugs, but they will still play the protection game. My friends from Mexico don't see them as two different groups.

straightUp Loc: California

Your friends from Mexico may have a different perspective than law enforcement agencies have and I don't think I have enough insight to argue one way or another. I'm just going by what information is available to me. So you may have a point about the protection game.

Even so... the Italian Mafia still plays the protection game too but it's a weak business in a legitimate world that can't hold a candle to the black market operations that essentially made them. The power players in the Mob today make most of their money through legitimate business and they don't seem to be causing problems on the same scale as those caused by the cartels who are still thriving in the black market.

We can't fix EVERYTHING, but I think we can fix more problems by cutting down some laws than we can by enforcing them, or though any exertion of brute force. That's essentially the point I am making.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Ultimately, legalizing might be a good experiment.