payne1000

The U.S. also supplied high altitude reconnaissance to inform Israel of Egyptian troop movements.

Louie27 Loc: Peoria, AZ

It scares us to think you are alive and walking around and spouting such lies as the holocaust was not real. It was as real as you. But we still do not think that you are a figment of some ones imagination. We can only hope that was the truth but will not dispute it without further investigation.

Scoop Henderson Loc: The Rez, (I am from Egypt)

And more, which is why we now have payback on American soil. Sell Israel.

payne1000

Israel has negative value. Give it back to the Palestinians.

Paybacktimeishere

I don't excuse the attack, on The USS Liberty,
during the six day war, as I still don't exactly,
what happened. Was it a result of "The Fog of War", an accident, a mix-up, or a deliberate act
of attack by The Israeli Air Force? I just don't
know for sure. There has been a whole lot of
disinformation, & a ton of B.S.! I wish I knew
the truth, because America gives Israel, more
support, & favoritism than any other Country in
The World.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

The USS Liberty here are the facts, judge for yourself. All facts have been checked and cross checked, and have been verified and there is no embellishments. I put it out for everyone to make up their own minds, was this an intentional act or an accident.

8 June 1967 which was the 4th day of the 6-day war, Israeli high command received several reports that troops in El Arish was under heavy fire for the sea. The day before, Egyptian vessels had taken the same position where they bombarded El Arish. Right or wrong, the assumption was made that the Egyptians had commenced firing again. Now then, the US announced that they would have a naval force within hundreds of miles off the coast to monitor the fight, but this was a few days earlier. The USS Liberty, under dual control of the DIS, CIA and the 6th Fleet came within 14 miles off of the Sinai coast. The Israelis mistakenly thought the USS Liberty was the one shelling El Arish. War planes and torpedo boats attacked the Liberty; killing 34 members of the Liberty's crew and wounding 171. Ships from the Sixth Fleet were directed to launch four attack aircraft with fighter cover to defend the Liberty, but the planes were recalled by the White House.

Liberty was first reported to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down.

According to Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin's memoirs, there were standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore. The day fighting began, Israel asked the US to remove any American ships from off the coast and to be notified of the precise location of U.S. vessels. The Sixth Fleet was moved because President Johnson feared being drawn into a confrontation with the Soviet Union. He also ordered that no aircraft be sent near Sinai.

A CIA report on the incident issued 13 June 1967, found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. When the Liberty began shooting at the Israelis (which was a normal reaction) the Israelis responded with the torpedo attack, which killed 28 of the sailors. In 1981, NSA noted that accounts by members of the Liberty crew and others did not have access to the relevant signal intelligence reports or the confidential explanation provided by Israel to the United States, which were used in the CIA investigation. The NSA concluded: “While these (Signal intelligence of Israeli communications) reports revealed some confusion on the part of the pilots concerning the nationality of the ship, they tended to rule out any thesis that the Israeli Navy and Air Force deliberately attacked a ship they knew to be American.”

JCS investigated the communications failure and noted that the Chief of Naval Operations expressed concern about the prudence of sending the Liberty so close to the area of hostilities and four messages were subsequently sent instructing the ship to move farther away from the area of hostilities. The JCS report said the messages were never received because of “a combination of (1) human error, (2) high volume of communications traffic, and (3) lack of appreciation of sense of urgency regarding the movement of the Liberty.” The report also included a copy of a flash cable sent immediately after the attack, which reported that Israel had “erroneously” attacked the Liberty, that IDF helicopters were in rescue operations, and that Israel had sent “abject apologies” and requested information on any other U.S. ships near the war zone.

Initially, the Israelis were terrified that they had attacked a Soviet ship and might have provoked the Soviets to join the fighting. Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attaché was flown to the Liberty.

The Israelis were “obviously shocked” by the error they made in attacking the ship, according to the U.S. Ambassador in Tel Aviv. In fact, according to a secret report on the 1967 war, the immediate concern was that the Arabs might see the proximity of the Liberty to the conflict as evidence of U.S.-Israel collusion. A second secret report concluded, “While the attack showed a degree of impetuosity and recklessness, it was also clear that the presence of a U.S. naval vessel, unannounced, that close to belligerent shores at a time when we had made much of the fact that no U.S. military forces were moving near the area of hostilities was inviting disaster.”

A U.S. spy plane was sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack on the Liberty and recorded the conversations of two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 p.m. on June 8. The orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at the Hatzor base instructing them to search for Egyptian survivors from the “Egyptian warship” that had just been bombed were also recorded by the NSA. “Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian,” the pilots were informed. Nine minutes later, Hatzor told the pilots the ship was believed to be an Egyptian cargo ship. At 3:07, the pilots were first told the ship might not be Egyptian and were instructed to search for survivors and inform the base immediately the nationality of the first person they rescued. It was not until 3:12 that one of the pilots reported that he saw an American flag flying over the ship at which point he was instructed to verify if it was indeed a U.S. vessel.

In January 2004, the State Department held a conference on the Liberty incident and also released new documents, including CIA memos dated 13 and 21 June 1967, that say that Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel. The historian for the National Security Agency, David Hatch, said the available evidence “strongly suggested” Israel did not know it was attacking a U.S. ship. Two former U.S. officials, Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attaché at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel, and John Hadden, then CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv, also agreed with the assessment that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake.

The new documents do not shed any light on the mystery of what the ship was doing in the area or why Israel was not informed about its presence.

Israel apologized for the tragedy immediately and offered on 9 June to compensate the victims. Israel ultimately paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two governments by an exchange of diplomatic notes on 17 December 1987.

References:

A. Jay Cristol, The Liberty Incident. (Washington, D.C.: Brassey's Inc., 2002); Yitzhak Rabin, The Rabin Memoirs, (CA: University of California Press, 1996), pp. 108-109.
Attack on a SIGINT Collector, the U.S.S. Liberty.
Dan Kurzman, Soldier of Peace: The Life of Yitzhak Rabin, (NY: HarperCollins, 1998), pp. 224-227; Rabin, p. 108-109.
“United States Policy and Diplomacy in the Middle East Crisis, May 15-June 10, 1967,” declassified secret document, Lyndon Johnson Presidential Library, pp. 143-144.
L. Wainstain, “Some Aspects of the U.S. Involvement in the Middle East Crisis, May-June 1967,” Institute for Defense Analysis, (February 1968).
Washington Post, (November 6, 1991).
5Hirsh Goodman, “Messrs. Errors and No Facts,” Jerusalem Report (November 21, 1991); Arieh O' Sullivan, “Exclusive: Liberty attack tapes revelead,” Jerusalem Post, (June 3, 2004)
Nathan Guttman, “Memos show Liberty attack was an error,” Ha'aretz, (July 9, 2003).
“Pilot who bombed 'Liberty' talks to 'Post,“ Jerusalem Post (October 10, 2003).
Hirsh Goodman and Ze'ev Schiff, “The Attack on the Liberty,” Atlantic Monthly, (September 1984).

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Your second implied question is much more complex. It is my opinion that it is guilt. Many think that the US and Great Brittan entered into WWII to “save” the Jews in Germany and Poland. This is untrue. Fact is, the USA was natural and could care less if every last man, woman, or child who were being murdered by the millions by Germany resulted in the eradication of not just Jew but Rumi, or other “misfits.” They had bought into the propaganda produced by Henry Ford and Adolf Hitler. There was no “love” for the Jew, no rush to save them or anyone. Although the US officials had known about the murders and the camps from 1933 and the Final Solution which began in 1939, they campaigned to “Save the World form Jewish Influence” and “Save Europe from the stronghold of the Jew” and finally “Remove the rich Jewish bankers.” The same propaganda that is circulating in the USA right now.

The reason that the US entered into WWII is simple, Germany (Hitler) declared war on the US on December 11, 1941. “"First he incites war, then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy and slowly but surely leads mankind to war",” those were the words of Hitler to the Germans on why he declared war. Hitler had already ensured Japan if they declared war against America, that Germany would also join declare war.

America often pats their own back and claim that they are the ones who liberated the Jew from the concentration camps. That is partly true, but not entirely. Russia’s Soviet forces were the first to approach a major Nazi camp, Maidanek near Lublin, Poland in July 1944. The Soviets liberated Auschwitz, the largest killing center and concentration camp, in January 1945. In the following months, the Soviets liberated additional camps in the Baltic states and in Poland. Shortly before Germany's surrender, Soviet forces liberated the Stutthof, Sachsenhausen, and Ravensbrueck concentration camps. And I give credit where credit is due. US forces liberated the Buchenwald concentration camp near Weimar, Germany, on April 11, 1945. They also liberated Dora-Mittelbau, Flossenbürg, Dachau, and Mauthausen. And it was only by hapenstance that they did. It was not part of the objective. The objective of the USA was to win the war, not save a nation.

Hang in there, you will see how this fact is played out in the creation of Israel. Now then, are you aware that the Liberals in the USA and Great Brittan were opposed to the creation of a homeland for the Jews? They fought it in as many ways they could. You see, the Liberals had accepted the propaganda put out by people like Henry Ford and Adolf Hitler. They, like many Liberals of today, saw the Jew as a parasite. As Payne and Whole2th have implied in their comments.

The bottom-line on this, America did not give a hoot about the Jew, German or otherwise. Brittan did not care either. Both opposed the formation of Israel. They offered zero support in the meetings with the UN. Now then Great Brittan had been looking for a way to unload the lands they acquired under the British Mandate for Palestine, or simply the Mandate for Palestine. In the event you are not familiar with this legal document, it provided for the administration of the territory that had formerly constituted the Ottoman Empire sanjaks of Nablus, Acre, the Southern portion of the Beirut Vilayet, and the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, prior to the Armistice of Mudros. The area was a financial drain and a drain of manpower (soldiers provided security because of the constant conflicts in the area). WWI had been brutal on the British economy and the military, so unloading this region was to their best interest. When the UN suggested that this may be a great place for the Jews, and because they were already a very large presence (still) in the area, it should be divided up and the new nations would be formed. So, it began. Jews were given a green light to purchase land (from the owners) to resettle. At first, there were 800,000 and later the UN gave “permission” for another 100,000 to resettle. Now mind you, they had already established a land for the Jew, but the UN still retained immigration visas for the area.
See continuation.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

The return of the Jews to Juda was enthusiastically supported by British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, who -- in a surprise twist that will shock you silly -- imagined that Britain would provide "guidance" to the new nation. Which obviously had nothing to do with Britain's strategic interest in strengthening its influence in the Middle East and checking Russian designs on Afghanistan. Totally altruistic. With help from donors, a steady trickle of European Jews began to immigrate to the Southern Levant.

It is now important for the reader to learn another fact, and those who support the Palestinians will not like this fact. But, it is a historical fact borne out by archeological records. The trace of the original populace of Palestine is rather difficult but the ancient inhabitants of Palestine are known to be ancient Greeks hailed from Asia Minor and not Arabs or Semites. The location of Palestine at the crossroads to some chief civilizations like Egyptians, Babylonians and Romans made it a frequently invaded land with several people living here through the ages. Therefore, those who claim that there is no difference between the Jew and the Palestine are wrong. In fact the origin of Arabs is intermingled with several races and ethnic groups instead of a more singular line. The tradition says that Arabs come from the line of Abraham and his son Ishmael. The tribal, Bedouin society of the Arabian Desert is the birthplace of “Arab”. There are other ethnic Arab groups as well that spread in the land and existed for millennia. Before modern Arab nationalism which developed in 19th and 20th century, Arab speaking people identified themselves with a particular tribe, a village or a family.

Often it is written that the Arabs (Muslims) treated the Jew better than the Christian. And they lived with each other in a utopian society where there was respect and partnership. Okay, the Muslims did treat them better. But, better is a matter of degree. If your idea of better is that they provided protection, then yes. It was better. But, at what price? For Islam, the price the Jew paid was their subordination to Muslim law and accepting the lowest social status within the framework of the “peaceful Islamic” order. And yes, this was a step up from Christendom, where the Jew were positioned outside of protective boundaries of religious and secular law. The less “civilized” approach applied to the Jews within the domain of Christendom was based on the lack of clearly stated and divinely ordained rules toward the Jews. Thus, positioning them outside of the protection of regular law exposed them to the arbitrary decisions of unpredictable rulers. To make the contrast sharper, the Islamic “peaceful strategy” has been compared to the Ashkenazi status, as they were considered ‘outsiders’ along with ‘pagans, unbelievers, heretics, and lepers.’

The state of Israel was born in 1949, although it actually began as shown much earlier, it was recognized in 1949. And after Israel fought for their independence, President Truman approved a $135 million dollar export-import bank loan and the sale of surplus commodities to Israel. It took Israel 17 years to repay this loan, but the final installment was paid and the loan was paid in full. In 1951, Congress voted to help Israel cope with the economic burdens imposed by the influx of Jewish refugees from the displaced persons camps in Europe and from the ghettos of the Arab countries. Arabs then complained the U.S. was neglecting them, though they had no interest in or use for American aid then. In 1951, Syria rejected offers of U.S. aid. Oil-rich Iraq and Saudi Arabia did not need U.S. economic assistance, and Jordan was, until the late 1950s, the ward of Great Britain. After 1957, when the United States assumed responsibility for supporting Jordan and resumed economic aid to Egypt, assistance to the Arab states soared. Also, the United States was by far the biggest contributor of aid to the Palestinians through UNRWA, a status that continues to the present.


US economic grants to Israel ended in 1959. U.S. aid to Israel from then until 1985 consisted largely of loans, which Israel repaid, and surplus commodities, which Israel bought. Israel began buying arms from the United States in 1962, but did not receive any grant military assistance until after the 1973 Yom Kippur War. As a result, Israel had to go deeply into debt to finance its economic development and arms procurement. The decision to convert military aid to grants that year was based on the prevailing view in Congress that without a strong Israel, war in the Middle East was more likely, and that the U.S. would face higher direct expenditures in such an eventuality.

How often do you read that Israel has “violated” UN General Assembly Resolutions? Some say that they are in violation of more than 150 of these rules and still others claim 65. Regardless, what the reader needs to fully understand, Resolutions of United Nations General Assembly, UN HRC etc. are not binding. They just are a representation of the collective will of the members present and voting. This includes abstention. These bodies are extremely active against Israel because human rights violations generally evoke a unison emotional response from almost all nations. Here too the voting mechanism does not require resolutions concurrent votes of the members, abstentions are generally not included in counting and not all members need to be present. This leads to resolutions with a small number of sponsors to be passed because some countries just do not care to vote because these resolutions are not binding in the first place.

One important example of this is UN General Assembly Resolution 194(III) which demanded Israel respect the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and communities following the end of fighting in 1948. This seems to be rather strange, because the Jews who settle in 1948 bought the land. So what the UN is saying…. You paid money and exchanged agreements, but you own nothing.

The above is a summary of books, articles, and family members who had first hand observations. Sorry, I do not have a list to provide, but I will certainly compile one and post it....

Paybacktimeishere

To Pennylynn,
Thank you, very much for educating, & clarifying, what really happened, to The USS LIBERTY & Israel's, unintended, attack. What a "cluster f**k! You're very bright,
& obviously, well educated. Thank's also for the
addendum, on the difficult, creation & growth,
of Israel, & her very industrious, & unique,
people. I truely hope that real peace, comes to
that troubled region. At least Egypt, & I believe,
Jordan, are not at War, with Israel. My respect,
for Israel, really grew for it's support for,(at the
time), The Communist, surrounded, Countries
of White, South Africa, & belligerent, White,
Governed, Rhodesia,(Now Red-Chinese, Backed
Zimbabwe). For their,(Israel), assistance, I'll
alway's be grateful, as I was in the process of
going to Rhodesia,( As an armed security guard
for Rhodesian Farmer's), just day's before it coll
apsed, just like South Vietnam.

whole2th

Spinmeister Pennylynn is as ineffective in making excuses for Israel's premeditated attack on the USS Liberty as she fails to explain the controlled demolition of Building 7 on 9-11.

Should we give any creedence to the story told by those on the USS Liberty who were attacked by Israel on June 8, 1967 on the 4th day of the Six Day War?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMzvgCLtCG8 Bryce Lockwood is the last living survivor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5mu79ygShs The Day Israel Attacked America

"We were overflown by Israeli aircraft at least eight times on that morning."


Google "Israel did 911" and do your own research. Ask Pennylynn how muslims could have rigged Buiilding 7 for controlled demolition.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Pay-Back,

My manners were absent in the earlier comment; please allow me to welcome you to OPP. This is a unique place filled with all manner of people. I do hope you will stay and I look forward to reading more of your comments.

I think that peace is possible in the Middle East, but Hamas must be replaced with a government who has the best interest of the Palestinians at heart. Already in Israel mandatory sensitivity training is conducted in all classroom, hoping to impress on the next generation that people can bridge gaps. Peace many not come in our lifetime, but we can hope for a brighter and more cooperative future.

Jordan and Israel relationship is fragile. There are some in Jordon that resents Israel as evidenced by John Kerry's latest visit when protestors carried signs about pushing Israel into the sea. But, in the part of the world, the security of the region rests with cordial relations. King Abdullah II in Amman is a level headed man and I am sure he and Bibi will work in unison for the betterment of both countries. Egypt and Israel have a peace agreement that I believe will hold for the long run. The folks I feel most sorry for are those in Gaza. The area is over-crowed, with pregnancy rates running at 4.4 children for every female above the age of 13. This is on the decline from over 8 in the early 1990s, but still the resources will not sustain such a rapid growing population. Of course with the boarders being restricted, due to suicide bombers and other issues, it seems that they are in a self-made prison. I hope that Hamas will be ousted by the people, but I have sincere doubt. The hate of Jews is taught from birth and only when the chain of anger and hate is broken, will the future for these people improve.

You are going to a culturally rich area. I recall my Papa's disappointment with the Land Husbandry Act of the 1950s, My Papa was a historian and he felt that limiting grazing was a direct interference with the indignities population, but again he could also see the benefits of encouraging land ownership with all the citizens. He just thought there was a better way to that end. I pray that your trip will be uneventful and after you arrive, you will be kind enough to share your thoughts and opinions on how the country has developed and matured.

whole2th

It is said that history is written by the victors. Long narratives are needed to deflect and cover the ugly truth about Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr9WQQsESAQ

payne1000

Did you read the Moorer Commission Report I linked?
The report spells out exactly what happened.
The Report is backed up by testimony of the survivors.
Since you didn't read it, it's apparent you don't want to know the truth.

payne1000

None of the authors you give as reference were aboard the liberty. Why didn't you post their accounts? No one would know more about what happened on that day.
Naval Commander James Ennes was a survivor of the attack. Watch and listen to what he has to say about the attack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-ZJEhDfono

payne1000

You wrote: "One important example of this is UN General Assembly Resolution 194(III) which demanded Israel respect the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and communities following the end of fighting in 1948. This seems to be rather strange, because the Jews who settle in 1948 bought the land. So what the UN is saying…. You paid money and exchanged agreements, but you own nothing."

During "The Catastrophe" (1946-1948), Jewish terrorists massacred entire Palestinian villages in order to drive close to a million Palestinians off their land and out of Palestine. Many of these Palestinians were landowners and they were not paid for their land. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus