Loki Loc: Georgia

Congressmen, Senators, infants, thousands of people who have been placed on a "no-fly" list by mistake and kept there by bungling bueaucrats, denied Constitutional rights.

If the federal government doesn’t want the 47,000 people on its No-Fly List to board airplanes, those individuals should be banned from ever owning guns, President Obama argued in his Sunday address from the Oval Office – but if his proposal ever becomes law, America could see U.S. Marines, congressmen, journalists and even federal air marshals mistakenly stripped of their firearms.

“To begin with, Congress should act to make sure no one on a No-Fly List is able to buy a gun,” Obama said Dec. 6. “What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to but a semi-automatic weapon? This is a matter of national security.”

But even the federal Government Accountability Office has indicated thousands of innocent people have been mistakenly linked to terror watchlists. Some experts and critics contend the federal list process contains many errors and relies on an overly broad standard of reasonable suspicion.

‘No guns’ for congressmen, Marines and feds?

Under Obama’s standard, even the late-Sen. Ted Kennedy, an ardent advocate of gun control while he served in Congress, would be blocked from purchasing a firearm.

In March 2004, Kennedy was stopped three times at airports in Washington, D.C., and Boston. Airline agents told the senator he couldn’t purchase a ticket because his name was on a list, according to USA Today.

“If they have that kind of difficulty with a member of Congress, how in the world are average Americans – who are getting caught up in this thing – how are they going to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?” Kennedy asked then-Homeland Security undersecretary Asa Hutchinson.

Kennedy wasn’t alone. Many other unsuspecting Americans have had similar experiences. In 2014, Politico reported Fox News contributor Steve Hayes was listed in the federal terrorist database after he traveled to Istanbul for a cruise.

“When I went online to check in with Southwest, they wouldn’t let me. I figured it was some glitch,” he said. “Then I got to the airport and went to check in. The woman had a concerned look on her face. She brought over her supervisor and a few other people. Then they shut down the lane I was in, took me to the side, told me I was a selectee and scrawled [something] on my ticket.”

Hayes said a Southwest Airlines agent later informed him that he was on the government’s terrorist watchlist.

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Many children under the age of five have generated false positives when their names were listed among those on the No-Fly List. One 18-month-old baby was pulled off a JetBlue flight in 2012.

In 2003 , 71-year-old Milwaukee nun Sister Virgine Lawinger had her travel plans interrupted.

In 2006, a U.S. Marine had his trip home to Minneapolis from Iraq delayed when his name appeared on the list.

Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., said he was stopped between 35 and 40 times in only a year after his name appeared on the list in 2003.

Even members of the Federal Air Marshal Service said they were blocked from boarding planes in 2008 after their names appeared in the database.

One marshal told the Washington Times it’s “a major problem, where guys are denied boarding by the airline.”

“In some cases, planes have departed without any coverage because the airline employees were adamant they would not fly,” said the air marshal, who requested anonymity due to the nature of his job. “I’ve seen guys actually being denied boarding.”

Another air marshal told the Times one agent had been “getting harassed for six years because his exact name is on the no-fly list.”

Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., told CNN Sunday that most people on the No-Fly List don’t even belong there: “These are everyday Americans that have nothing to do with terrorism. … The majority of people on the No-Fly List are often times people that just basically have the same name as somebody else who doesn’t belong on the No-Fly List.”

Even the left-leaning website Vox.com noted, “While the criteria for what sorts of ‘threats’ get placed on the no-fly list is specific, the evidence that can be used to put someone on the no-fly list – or any government watch list – is pretty thin. The government is trying to predict whether people who have never committed any acts of terrorism before will commit one now, and that involves a lot of what the government calls ‘predictive judgments’ and its critics call guesswork.”

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Terrorist Screening Database and the No-Fly List

The FBI maintains the Terrorist Screening Database, which was estimated in a 2009 Justice Department audit to contain “more than 1.1 million known or suspected terrorist identities.”

In many cases, a single person on the list was found to have more than one identity. According to leaked government documents published by the Intercept, in 2013 there were 680,000 people actually on the list.

And more than 40 percent of those names (280,000 people) were found to have “no recognized terrorist group affiliation.” Tim Healy, an FBI veteran who runs the Terrorist Screening Center, told CBS News, “We don’t confirm anyone’s existence on the watch list.”

The FBI says a person’s name may be added to the federal watchlist “when there is reasonable suspicion that the person is a known or suspected terrorist. To meet the reasonable suspicion standard, nominating agencies must rely upon articulable intelligence or information which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrants a determination that an individual is known or suspected to be or have been knowingly engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism or terrorist activities.”

The No-Fly List – a subset of the Terrorist Screening Database – reportedly listed 47,000 people in 2013.

According to the FBI:

“Inclusion on the No Fly List prohibits an individual wo may present a threat to civil aviation or national security from boarding a commercial aircraft that will fly into, out of, over, or within United States airspace … Before an individual may be placed on the No Fly List, there must be credible information that demonstrates the individual poses a threat of committing a violent act of terrorism with respect to civil aviation, the homeland, United States interests located abroad, or is operationally capable of doing so.”

David Gomez, a former senior FBI special agent, told the Intercept that the watchlist system is “revving out of control.”

“If everything is terrorism, then nothing is terrorism,” he said.

Gomez expressed concern that the database is being compiled based merely on a vague concept of reasonable suspicion.

“You need some fact-basis to say a guy is a terrorist, that you know to a probable-cause standard that he is a terrorist,” Gomez told the Intercept. “Then I say, ‘Build as big a file as you can on him.’ But if you just suspect that somebody is a terrorist? Not so much.”

Vox.com said the government’s “reasonable suspicion” standard includes Facebook and Twitter posts.

“There’s also a way for the government to add whole categories of people (like anyone who ‘traveled to a particular country in a particular year) to the no-fly list temporarily – if it has specific reasons for doing so,” Vox explained. “The ‘upgrade’ (as it’s called) can last for 72 hours without official review, and can get extended indefinitely every 30 days if ‘senior officials’ agree it’s necessary.

“The temporary ‘upgrade’ could be an implementation nightmare in and of itself for making the no-fly list a no-gun list. Would people who’d temporarily been put on the no-fly list be told they couldn’t buy a gun, period? Would they be told to come back after the upgrade had been lifted? Would the government put in place a way for an individual person to exempt himself from the group terror ‘upgrade?’”

Anyone may request removal from the terror watchlist by contacting the DHS Traveler Redress Inquiry Program. From fiscal year 2006 to 2008, the FBI processed an average of 2,710 watchlist record removals each year.

TSA misses 73 people with suspected terror links

In another twist this week involving the terror list, Rep. Stephen Lynch, D-Mass., told Boston Public Radio that the inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security found at least six-dozen individuals “on the terrorist watch list that were actually working at the Department of Homeland Security.”

Asked why he supported a GOP bill to tighten screening requirements for Syrian and Iraqi refugees earlier this month, Lynch said, “I have very low confidence based on empirical data that we’ve got on the Department of Homeland Security. I think we desperately need another set of eyeballs looking at the vetting process.”

Lynch mistakenly identified the suspects as DHS employees. The 73 employees he referenced were airport and airline employees screened by the Transportation Security Agency, or TSA.

WND contacted TSA to ask whether any of the 73 workers on the terror watchlist carried firearms in the line of duty, as would likely be the case for Federal Air Marshal agents, who fall under TSA supervision. But a TSA spokesman didn’t answer the specific question and instead provided several links to congressional testimony.

Every day, TSA is responsible for screening an estimated 2 million air passengers at 441 airports across America. TSA agents also screen airport and airline workers before they enter secure areas, and the TSA conducts security background checks for those workers.

When a person wants to work at an airport or for an airline, TSA checks the names against the Terrorist Screening Database and performs criminal background and immigration status checks.

However, according to a June 2015 OIG report, TSA missed the 73 individuals with “terrorism-related category codes because TSA is not authorized to receive all terrorism-related information under current interagency watchlisting policy.


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/obama-now-wants-guns-from-these-47000-people/#ZLxczyS7FKzoYRBx.99


Congressmen, Senators, newscasters, Federal Marhals, nuns, and year old infants have been place on this list, and once on, it's HARD to get off. The Muslim Appeaser-in-Chief seems to not give a damn that his incompetent bureaucrats can't seem to tell shit from Shinola.

RWNJ

Ever see the guidelines for the DHS on who is a possible terrorist? Christians. Anyone who believes the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Anyone who believes in limited government. Former military. Pretty much, anyone who disagrees with the government. Do I need to connect the dots for you?

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

By Mistake?

You believe that?

I Don't.

I have heard the term "Unintended Consequences" more times from this administration than all other administrations put together.

They fully intend everything that happens from their alleged
blundering efforts. They haven't blundered at all. They simply make their intent well known long before the time, covering it up as a blunder or unintended consequence.

I think "No Fly" lists would become overlisted by religion or political party, or anyone who disagrees with democrats. Put 'em on the list, can't own a gun.

Loki Loc: Georgia

They put Hank Johnson and Ted Kennedy, two anti-gun Democrats on the list also. I thought that one was hilarious.

Trooper745 Loc: Carolina

Again, Democrats with the wrong solution to a non-existent problem. Exactly how many people on the no-fly list have used a gun to kill someone?

The real problem needing a solution is the flucked-up no-fly list that has people on it that are no threat what so ever, but doesn't contain but a very few of the many people that are a real threat.

SamDawkins

Just a hypothetical question.

If they were to abolish the current list ,then form a new "no-Fly List"one that is true and accurate ,would you then be for banning those people from buying guns?

By true and accurate I mean substantial evidence that these people are known to be associated with terrorist.

RWNJ

If there is not enough evidence to indict someone, then I would say no. You cannot refuse to sell some a gun for what they might do. Not without some solid evidence that would stand up in a court of law. As long as that person has not committed any crimes, I don't see a problem with selling them a gun.

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

Well, yeah, but when they see someone like me that doesn't agree with them then they put me on the list and keep me from flying, which I never do anyway, but can come after my guns and that may get someone shot.

Loki Loc: Georgia

US citizens cannot be punished for thinking of committing a crime. You cannot deny a person the opportunity to purchase a car because he consorts with known drunks, on the theory that this person might be a drunk driver. That is what you gun control people can never seem to grasp; you cannot punish someone because they are likely to be a criminal. That's profiling, remember? You cannot profile Blacks and Mexicans, but you can profile someone who wants to purchase a gun?
Besides, how hard is it to purchase a gun on the street? I go through a dealer because it's the easiest way to obtain the specific firearm I want, not because I like submitting to background checks. Fortunately, in Georgia, a carry permit makes the process quick and painless.

Kevyn

For the vast majority of people being denied the ability to board an airliner is a far greater inconvienance than being denied the immediate purchase of a firearm. A delay of a couple of days for someone flying to a job interview, funeral or even family vacation can be a life altering event. Having to wait a few days to clean up paperwork to buy a gun, not so much. The vast majority of Americans agree with the president on this, and they are right.

SamDawkins

OK ,how about this scenario. Guy walks into a gun shop tells the proprietor that he would like to purchase an assault rifle,so he could go to the local Walmart and shoot humans. Would you still sell him a gun?

Loki Loc: Georgia

"A few days?" Where have you been, Kevyn? We are not talking a minor paperwork glitch here, we are talking about innocent people, even one US Congressman, who stays on this list for months, and in some cases, years before some bureaucrat asshole corrects the mistake. Innocent people forced to hire attorneys and go to court to force the f*cking government to remove them from a list they were wrongfully included on. You Liberals are all for due process, as long as it's something you agree with. Newsflash: DUE PROCESS is not a case by case proposition, it's all or nothing. Either every US citizen gets it, or none do. Make up your mind which one you support.

RWNJ

WTF? Ever hear of something called a terroristic threat? Would you sell a gun to someone who told you they were gonna use it to kill you? Don't be an idiot.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Since when is a "NAME" all there is to an identity? THAT's the problem. Putting names on a no-fly list without further identification is nothing short of Harassment.

Loki Loc: Georgia

There will not be one of those as long as this Administration is in office, so your question is moot.