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Virginia taking Robert E. Lee's Monument Down
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Jun 7, 2020 10:32:16   #
Milosia
 
Kickaha wrote:
He had already resigned his commission in the US Army and retired to Virginia prior to being asked to lead the Army of Northern Virginia.


He resigned from the United States Army and quickly accepted a commission in a rebel army based in Virginia.

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Jun 7, 2020 10:38:10   #
Milosia
 
Kickaha wrote:
What about the free blacks who fought for the Confederacy? Are you a history revisionist who only wants to tell the story you want told? There were a lot of soldiers on the Union side that would not have fought if it were only about slavery. Please do more research on the South and the underlying issues of the war.


Before you start advising people to do more research maybe you should take heed yourself.

As you can see there were no free blacks who fought for the Confederacy.

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Jun 7, 2020 10:50:48   #
Milosia
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
By strict definition it was the Union that was treasonous. Secession for whatever reason was perfectly legal in 1861. I have had an ongoing bet on several forums with anyone who can show me where in The Constitution or in US statutory law as it existed in 1861 that secession was prohibited. So far I have had no takers.
Three states of the original 13, (those being NY, RI and VA) provided written reservations of a right to secede if they saw fit and were accepted as states anyway. From then on until 1861, prohibition of secession was never a condition of statehood. I did not say it was a good idea, but it was absolutely legal. As for the statement that Lee committed treason, that is crap. Lee resigned from the Union Army before he was even offered a command in the Confederate Army. His state LEGALLY exercised it's already accepted right of secession and he went with his state. The Union Army invaded VA to force them back into an alliance from which they had lawfully withdrawn. If you want to get persnickety about it, the Confederate secession had more legal justification than the American Revolution, which happened without any cloak of legality.
In short, any one who claims that secession in 1861 was an act of treason has very little education in either history or law, but like most ignorant hypocrites, imagine themselves to be on the side of the angels.
By strict definition it was the Union that was tre... (show quote)


I never said secession was an act of treason.
The actions of Robert e lee were as documented in the attached files, Treasonous.

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Jun 7, 2020 10:58:11   #
Milosia
 
Milosia wrote:
Before you start advising people to do more research maybe you should take heed yourself.

As you can see there were no free blacks who fought for the Confederacy.


***If you need more evidence of Lee’s personal feelings on enslavement, however, note that when his rebel forces marched into Pennsylvania, they kidnapped black people and sold them into bondage. Contemporaries referred to these kidnappings as “slave hunts.” **
Excerpt from above.

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Jun 7, 2020 11:12:01   #
TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!
 
Kickaha wrote:
You're right. He's kin on my father's side.


That must make us umptent cousins! My Grandmother told us that she was the 8th cousin to Lee!

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Jun 7, 2020 12:19:39   #
lindajoy Loc: right here with you....
 
Kickaha wrote:
You're right. He's kin on my father's side.


That makes you guys related too~ cool!!👏🏻✨👏🏻

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Jun 7, 2020 15:11:47   #
Milosia2 Loc: Cleveland Ohio
 
lindajoy wrote:
That makes you guys related too~ cool!!👏🏻✨👏🏻


Down south you know they’re all related.

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Jun 7, 2020 15:26:35   #
Milosia2 Loc: Cleveland Ohio
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
It isn't often I have an opportunity to talk with a legal and constitutional expert such as you seem to consider yourself. Wanna make $50? Show me anywhere in the Constitution of 1861 where secession is prohibited. Show me anywhere in statutory law as it existed in 1861 where secession was prohibited. Of course, if you take me up on this, you owe ME $50 when you cannot find it. Wanna bet? Robert E Lee was considered a non-citizen when he resigned from the Army and went home to VA. Only a citizen can be charged with treason. You aren't nearly as smart as you think you are. Of course, that is a common situation among Liberals.
It isn't often I have an opportunity to talk with ... (show quote)





Primary Resource
Virginia Ordinance of Secession (April 17, 1861)

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The Virginia Ordinance of Secession, dated April 17, 1861, declares that the bond between Virginia and the United States of America, under the U.S. Constitution, is dissolved. Delegates at the Virginia Convention of 1861 voted 88–55 to approve the ordinance on April 17 and a statewide referendum confirmed secession on May 23.

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Transcription from Original
An Ordinance
To repeal the ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, by the State of Virginia, and to resume all the rights and powers granted under said Constitution.

The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention, on the twenty-fifth day of June in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution, were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slaveholding States.

Now, therefore, we the people of Virginia, do declare and ordain,That the ordinance adopted by the people of this State in Convention, on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified; and all acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying or adopting amendments to said Constitution, are hereby repealed and abrogated; that the Union between the State of Virginia and the other States under the Constitution aforesaid is hereby dissolved, and that the State of Virginia is in the full possession and exercise of all the rights of sovereignty, which belong and appertain to a free and independent State. And they do further declare,That said Constitution of the United States of America is no longer binding on any of the Citizens of this State.

This ordinance shall take effect and be an act of this day when ratified by a majority of the votes of the people of this State, cast at a poll to be taken thereon, on the fourth Thursday in May next, in pursuance of a Schedule hereafter to be enacted

Done in Convention in the City of Richmond, on the seventeenth day of April, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one, and in the eighty-fifth year of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

[signatures of the delegates]

Author
Virginia Convention of 1861

Transcription Source
Ordinance of Secession, 1861. Virginia. Convention (1861). Records, 1861–1961. Accession 40586. State Government Records Collection, The Library of Virginia, Richmond, Va.

Image Source
Library of Virginia

First published: June 20, 2014 | Last modified: June 25, 2015

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Jun 7, 2020 15:39:32   #
America 1 Loc: South Miami
 
Milosia2 wrote:
Primary Resource
Virginia Ordinance of Secession (April 17, 1861)

Share It

The Virginia Ordinance of Secession, dated April 17, 1861, declares that the bond between Virginia and the United States of America, under the U.S. Constitution, is dissolved. Delegates at the Virginia Convention of 1861 voted 88–55 to approve the ordinance on April 17 and a statewide referendum confirmed secession on May 23.

Previous

Next
Transcription from Original
An Ordinance
To repeal the ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, by the State of Virginia, and to resume all the rights and powers granted under said Constitution.

The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention, on the twenty-fifth day of June in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution, were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slaveholding States.

Now, therefore, we the people of Virginia, do declare and ordain,That the ordinance adopted by the people of this State in Convention, on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified; and all acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying or adopting amendments to said Constitution, are hereby repealed and abrogated; that the Union between the State of Virginia and the other States under the Constitution aforesaid is hereby dissolved, and that the State of Virginia is in the full possession and exercise of all the rights of sovereignty, which belong and appertain to a free and independent State. And they do further declare,That said Constitution of the United States of America is no longer binding on any of the Citizens of this State.

This ordinance shall take effect and be an act of this day when ratified by a majority of the votes of the people of this State, cast at a poll to be taken thereon, on the fourth Thursday in May next, in pursuance of a Schedule hereafter to be enacted

Done in Convention in the City of Richmond, on the seventeenth day of April, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one, and in the eighty-fifth year of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

[signatures of the delegates]

Author
Virginia Convention of 1861

Transcription Source
Ordinance of Secession, 1861. Virginia. Convention (1861). Records, 1861–1961. Accession 40586. State Government Records Collection, The Library of Virginia, Richmond, Va.

Image Source
Library of Virginia

First published: June 20, 2014 | Last modified: June 25, 2015
Primary Resource br Virginia Ordinance of Secessio... (show quote)


Why try to change our history or remove it?
Solves nothing.

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Jun 7, 2020 16:22:07   #
Milosia2 Loc: Cleveland Ohio
 
America 1 wrote:
Why try to change our history or remove it?
Solves nothing.


What would’ve happened if Jefferson Davis had won ?
I think it means Slavery would’ve won.

I am not in favor of rewriting history or destroying artifacts from the past, but , I do think they should be in a place where you have the option of seeing them or not, as a museum.
To have an avowed traitor on a horse towering down on you is just plain ridiculous.

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Jun 7, 2020 16:32:05   #
Milosia2 Loc: Cleveland Ohio
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
It isn't often I have an opportunity to talk with a legal and constitutional expert such as you seem to consider yourself. Wanna make $50? Show me anywhere in the Constitution of 1861 where secession is prohibited. Show me anywhere in statutory law as it existed in 1861 where secession was prohibited. Of course, if you take me up on this, you owe ME $50 when you cannot find it. Wanna bet? Robert E Lee was considered a non-citizen when he resigned from the Army and went home to VA. Only a citizen can be charged with treason. You aren't nearly as smart as you think you are. Of course, that is a common situation among Liberals.
It isn't often I have an opportunity to talk with ... (show quote)


There was no law expressly prohibiting it. If Virginia ratified a contract to be part of the United States then , in for a penny in for a pound. Then
If you should want to break that bond there were others ways of going about it.
As it happened a Declaration of War was issued.
I do understand what you are saying, it’s the reason Jefferson Davis was never brought to trial.

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Jun 7, 2020 16:40:01   #
Milosia2 Loc: Cleveland Ohio
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
It isn't often I have an opportunity to talk with a legal and constitutional expert such as you seem to consider yourself. Wanna make $50? Show me anywhere in the Constitution of 1861 where secession is prohibited. Show me anywhere in statutory law as it existed in 1861 where secession was prohibited. Of course, if you take me up on this, you owe ME $50 when you cannot find it. Wanna bet? Robert E Lee was considered a non-citizen when he resigned from the Army and went home to VA. Only a citizen can be charged with treason. You aren't nearly as smart as you think you are. Of course, that is a common situation among Liberals.
It isn't often I have an opportunity to talk with ... (show quote)


Who declared lee a non citizen? He may have considered himself a non citizen but he took an oath to defend the US CONSTITUTION in the U S Army.

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Jun 7, 2020 16:40:27   #
Milosia2 Loc: Cleveland Ohio
 
Duh!

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Jun 7, 2020 16:47:29   #
Crayons Loc: St Jo, Texas
 
Milosia wrote:
Before you start advising people to do more research maybe you should take heed yourself.

As you can see there were no free blacks who fought for the Confederacy.


The Republic of Texas had it's share.
Texas had free-blacks before the Civil War

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Jun 7, 2020 20:12:16   #
Kickaha Loc: Nebraska
 
Crayons wrote:
The Republic of Texas had it's share.
Texas had free-blacks before the Civil War


There were free blacks throughout the South prior to the Civil War. Some were small time farmers, tradesmen and others were successful businessmen on a larger scale. Slavery would have ended on its own eventually as it was becoming less cost efficient as new inventions came along replacing manpower with machine power.

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