straightUp Loc: California

My first thought... Delivery; the Republicans kicked ... aaass! The Democrats were... *sigh*

... let's just say, disappointing.

Still, none of the Republicans, despite all their swagger, were able to get their fallacies past me. Especially now that I've had time to get familiar with the issues. But hats off to their confidence game. Basically, half of what they say is solid fact, another 48% is conjecturing upon those facts (cue patriotic music) and the remaining 2% is where I always find the fallacies that of course expose the fraudulence behind the entire argument. The most common fraud being a near total lack of relevance to the item of discussion, which tonight would have been any one of the edits to the articles of impeachment.

My second thought comes from my overall disappointment with the performance of the Democrats. I started to think how fortunate we are that it doesn't really matter because the votes are pretty much locked in. It doesn't get any more partisan than this so the Democrats will win by virtue of simple math.

So why are they even bothering with the debates? Oh, yeah, formality. But then why are they sweating it? Why stress the rhetoric?

And why ARE the votes so locked in?

Oh yeah, because so many of the seats in the House are taken by representatives who were elected by a highly contentious population. I guess that also explains the endless rhetoric on the House floor.

This is just as much about November 2020 as it is about Trump.

This impeachment will go no further than the House. The same simple math insures a successful block in the Senate. But by insisting on the prosecution the Democrats WILL restore a lot of faith among their voters. The Republicans... well, they need to do the same thing and their voters want them to save Trump.

Folks, our representatives (and by that I mean America's representatives) despite all their faults ARE in fact doing their jobs. They are acting in the interest of those who voted for them. They are polarized because WE are polarized.

proud republican Loc: RED CALIFORNIA

I agree with you that we are polarized nation!! I just want to know this The whole premise behind this Impeachment, was that Trump committed bribery,and Quid pro Quo!! Than why none of them are part of articles of impeachment !!! Why not ? ? That is why they are losing!! President Trump did nothing impeachable!! Maybe bad judgment,but if we were to impeach people for bad judgment no one in Congress will be left to work for us!!

proud republican Loc: RED CALIFORNIA

I was just listening to the callers on C-SPAN and this guy who is Democrat called and said he is switching parties after 40 yrs because of this Impeachment BS!!

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I tend to agree with you on this....

Although I have stopped watching the impeachment proceedings live...

Any ideas on how to fix the polarization?

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Indeed! Near the end, all arguments became redundant.

The debate on the articles of impeachment abruptly ended just now without the obligatory vote. I have only seen this happen when support of the pending vote is waning. This COULD be a good sign. Again, it could be that Nadler is looking for higher rating in viewership. But, seeing that a dozen Democrats have split with their party on Impeachment, Nadler may be seeking time to turn them back (like herding sheep). I don't think they want history to reflect a tight vote. Yes, even with 12 Democrats voting against, they will still have enough votes to carry the impeachment....question is, how would a slim or tight vote carry with the public come election time....

Weasel Loc: In the Great State Of Indiana!!

Nadler's List
Nothing but False Hopes and Empty Dreams.

straightUp Loc: California

Actually, that bribery is the basis for the first article "abuse of power" that says... "Using the powers of his high office, President Trump solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, in the 2020 United States Presidential election."

I'm not sure what you mean by losing. As I've stated, the Democrats have the votes to win. Trump WILL be the third president in history to be impeached. From the Democratic perspective this is not a loss.

As for the claim that Trump did nothing impeachable, all I can say for certain is that it's a point of contention based on what either side considers sufficient evidence.

Did OJ really kill his wife? Well, they didn't actually catch him in the act, he never admitted to it and ALL the evidence was circumstantial so according to the logic the Republicans are currently applying to the impeachment hearings, OJ would be innocent. But the jury concluded otherwise based on the weight of the circumstantial evidence. In another words, our justice system doesn't depend on catching criminals in the act. There can be a point where if there is enough circumstantial evidence to infer guilt and that's what the Democrats have done in this impeachment hearing.


There will dissent on both sides. I've heard stories of life-long Republicans switching sides in reaction to the impeachment spectacle too. The media is pretty good at picking these rare exceptions out of the crowd to support their specific narratives.

straightUp Loc: California

Theoretically, yes.

IMO, there is the "fake" war and the "real" war and I think we are being polarized by the fake war. If we can understand the real war better I think we can find common ground and unite, but it's a really tall order.

The fake war is of course the partisan war. (Republicans vs Democrats... conservatives vs liberals... etc...) The stuff that Fox and CNN and so much discussion on OPP is concerned obsessed with.

The real war (and not everyone will agree with me on this) is between the 99% and the 1%. Occupy Wall Street is the closest movement I have seen to addressing the real war.

Every now and then I will see someone stating that the Republicans and Democrats are as bad as each other and I find that hopeful in the sense that it could lead to the realization that the partisan war is fake. But every view of the real war gets blocked as soon as MSM (controlled by the 1%) notices anyone looking and resentment is quickly redirected back to partisan politics.

To understand the real war means we have to look deeper into that 1%... deep enough to see that the 1% itself is fragmented into competing factions that use the political parties as leverage against each other. There are two theaters of conflict in this "real" war... foreign policy, in which the factions of the 1% make their moves on the global stage and domestic policy where the big dispute appears to be over how much blood can they squeeze out of the 99%.

The Republicans seem confident that with a "bread and circus" strategy the 99% can take much more abuse before reaching a point of rebellion against the 1%. The Democrats, having to contend with a greater level of diversity and education seem less convinced and prefer a more compromising path, but ultimately, it's just a matter of how the reins are held.

I think that if a movement could arise out of the 99% that recognizes the common plight of the people and the fact that the Constitution created the government for The People, not just the 1%, we could unite as a single nation.

But the fake war has put up a LOT of barriers that we have to clear for that to happen. We have to stop being so easily manipulated by rhetorical narratives and learn how to infer the truth though critical thinking rather than subscription. We have to get over all those corn-fed prejudices and put ideology back in context.

Again... I think (at least for now) this is a tall, tall order. But I do hope that changes before we lose our democracy and the prison-industrial complex takes over from where the patronizing and the bread and circuses leave off.

straightUp Loc: California

I stopped watching by 11:00p. (us old guys need our sleep - lol) But I heard about the abrupt end this morning. I'd say your guess at what's behind that rare situation is as good as mine.